Vikings @ Lions Game Day Discussion Thread -- Week 15

[Pondering Her Percy]

Yes.

Look, I acknowledge that he's progressing and that's genuinely encouraging but there's basically nothing he could do over the remainder of this season that would convince me he is undoubtedly the long term answer at QB. I believe the development process has to play itself out.

You would still say yes if he only threw 5 INTs in 10 games???

I don't really understand that but I respect your opinion regarding the remainder of the season

[Mothman]

You would still say yes if he only threw 5 INTs in 10 games???

I don't really understand that but I respect your opinion regarding the remainder of the season

You asked me what I don't like about Teddy's game. I don't like the interceptions. That seems pretty logical to me.

I realize some of them haven't been his fault but I still don't like them. He's not throwing them at an alarming rate or anything but I don't like the nature of some of the picks. For example, the INT against GB was a bad choice, thrown off his back foot, a pass he should have thrown away or never attempted. The two on Sunday were both poor throws and let the Lions back in the game. He forced the ball into into coverage at the end of the Bears game, leading to an INT that sealed the win for the Bears.

These are understandable, not unforgivable, mistakes for a rookie QB but they're still mistakes he needs to learn to avoid.

[Mothman]

Zimmer believed the Vikings didn’t handle the fourth quarter well during the critical moments Sunday, particularly on the offense’s final two drives.

“There are so many games in the NFL that come down to this kind of crunch time, and we didn’t do enough to win,” Zimmer said.

On their final drive, the Vikings moved 20 yards in 44 seconds with no timeouts and settled for a 68-yard field goal attempt from Blair Walsh that fell short as time expired. Zimmer pointed out mistakes by running back Matt Asiata, who stayed in bounds and fell a yard short of the first down; Bridgewater, who missed an open Jarius Wright on the first play of the drive; and a delay of game penalty when the communicator cut off near the end of the play clock.

Zimmer said the team will get better in late-game scenarios in time.

http://www.startribune.com/sports/vikin ... 05081.html

[Purple Reign]

I respect your overall post. However, you mention the INTs although when you look at it, would you be saying "the INTs" if he only had 5? Because thats what he would have if he didn't have 1 ball tipped at the line (vs. DET), 1 ball go through Asiata's hands (vs. Det), a hail mary at the end of the game (@ Chi), a hail mary before halftime (vs. NYJ), and have Charles Johnson get tripped up (@ Det)?? If you think about it, 5 out of his 10 INTs were bad throws. The other 5 were clearly not his fault or technically "bad throws".

That was not a hail mary at the end of the Chicago game, there was still almost a minute left to go and the one where Johnson stumbled out of his break in the Detroit game was still a bad pass, not terrible like the 2nd one, but still a bad pass and don't think Johnson could have caught it even if he didn't stumble. You point out the ints that weren't his fault, but there's also the other side where he threw some passes that should have been intercepted but weren't. Granted, there there were only a few - like the one against Tampa Bay on the game tying drive that hit the defender in the chest and he dropped it. So if you aren't going to include one's that weren't his fault, you then have to include ones that should have been intercepted but were dropped.

[Mothman]

That was not a hail mary at the end of the Chicago game, there was still almost a minute left to go and the one where Johnson stumbled out of his break in the Detroit game was still a bad pass, not terrible like the 2nd one, but still a bad pass and don't think Johnson could have caught it even if he didn't stumble. You point out the ints that weren't his fault, but there's also the other side where he threw some passes that should have been intercepted but weren't. Granted, there there were only a few - like the one against Tampa Bay on the game tying drive that hit the defender in the chest and he dropped it. So if you aren't going to include one's that weren't his fault, you then have to include ones that should have been intercepted but were dropped.

Good point. They tend to even out over time.

The INT @Chicago was definitely not a Hail Mary, just a forced throw into coverage.

[Pondering Her Percy]

That was not a hail mary at the end of the Chicago game, there was still almost a minute left to go and the one where Johnson stumbled out of his break in the Detroit game was still a bad pass, not terrible like the 2nd one, but still a bad pass and don't think Johnson could have caught it even if he didn't stumble. You point out the ints that weren't his fault, but there's also the other side where he threw some passes that should have been intercepted but weren't. Granted, there there were only a few - like the one against Tampa Bay on the game tying drive that hit the defender in the chest and he dropped it. So if you aren't going to include one's that weren't his fault, you then have to include ones that should have been intercepted but were dropped.

Maybe it wasn't a "Hail Mary" but he took a shot at the end of the game. It might not have been the greatest throw but Johnson never made any kind of attempt at it and Zimmer called him out for it in his presser that day. As for the Detroit interception, I repeat myself once again and say, that was not a bad throw at all. Johnson specifically said he would of had no problem at all catching it if he wasn't tripped up. So no that was not a bad throw. Again I feel like we're being overly critical but maybe it's just me. All QBs make bad passes, more so rookie QBs. It happens. My point with this argument is that he has 10 ints however 4 of them weren't really on him, I suppose I'll leave the Chicago int out. I could almost guarantee that if he only had 6 ints on the year, nobody would be complaining about his interceptions. 6 ints in 10.5 games is not bad by any means. Yet some still claim they would call him out for it which doesn't make much sense to me. It's not like those 4 throws were arrant throws that hit a defender right in the chest

[frosted]

Maybe it wasn't a "Hail Mary" but he took a shot at the end of the game. It might not have been the greatest throw but Johnson never made any kind of attempt at it and Zimmer called him out for it in his presser that day. As for the Detroit interception, I repeat myself once again and say, that was not a bad throw at all. Johnson specifically said he would of had no problem at all catching it if he wasn't tripped up. So no that was not a bad throw. Again I feel like we're being overly critical but maybe it's just me. All QBs make bad passes, more so rookie QBs. It happens. My point with this argument is that he has 10 ints however 4 of them weren't really on him, I suppose I'll leave the Chicago int out. I could almost guarantee that if he only had 6 ints on the year, nobody would be complaining about his interceptions. 6 ints in 10.5 games is not bad by any means. Yet some still claim they would call him out for it which doesn't make much sense to me. It's not like those 4 throws were arrant throws that hit a defender right in the chest

Let's be rational though, every QB has interceptions that aren't on them, and they obviously get away with some bad throws that don't show up on the stat sheet too.

I don't see any problem with anyone being critical of Ted, I think that just speaks to the fact that he's elevated our standard for his performance with his improved play lately. He's a young quarterback, he's made mistakes, and he'll make more in the future. There's no reason to sugar coat that. It is what it is.

[Mothman]

Maybe it wasn't a "Hail Mary" but he took a shot at the end of the game. It might not have been the greatest throw but Johnson never made any kind of attempt at it and Zimmer called him out for it in his presser that day.

Nevertheless, he forced the ball into double coverage and "took a shot' when it wasn't unnecessary. No matter how you slice it, it wasn't a good decision or a play that should be scratched off his stat sheet as meaningless, like the pick against the Jets.

As for the Detroit interception, I repeat myself once again and say, that was not a bad throw at all. Johnson specifically said he would of had no problem at all catching it if he wasn't tripped up.So no that was not a bad throw.

I don't care what he said. The evidence is on tape. It was a bad throw. Look where the ball is in this screen shot:



Johnson is stumbling out of his break and the ball is coming in high. The throw would be behind him if he had kept running. The Detroit defender trailing Johnson is in better position to get the ball and is, in fact, leaping to try and tip it. That's a bad throw.

Again I feel like we're being overly critical but maybe it's just me. All QBs make bad passes, more so rookie QBs. It happens.

Yes, it happens and it's worthy of criticism. If criticizing a QB for throwing back-to-back, game-changing INTs, neither of which were accurate throws, is overly critical, what would be an appropriate level of criticism?

My point with this argument is that he has 10 ints however 4 of them weren't really on him, I suppose I'll leave the Chicago int out. I could almost guarantee that if he only had 6 ints on the year, nobody would be complaining about his interceptions. 6 ints in 10.5 games is not bad by any means. Yet some still claim they would call him out for it which doesn't make much sense to me

Claiming 4 of them weren't on him is being generous. Look, you asked what I don't like about Teddy's game, which is essentially asking me to be critical and now your response is that you think it's overly critical to say I don't like his INTs? What sort of response did you expect? Regardless of what you "almost guarantee", he doesn't have 6 picks in 10.5 games. He has 10. I understand that some weren't his fault or weren't a big deal but as Frosted just posted above, every QB has interceptions that aren't on them and every QB gets away with bad throws that don't show up on the stat sheet. These things tend to even out.

[dead_poet]

Johnson is stumbling out of his break and the ball is coming in high. The throw would be behind him if he had kept running. The Detroit defender trailing Johnson is in better position to get the ball and is, in fact, leaping to try and tip it. That's a bad throw.

Just to play devil's advocate here...what route was Johnson running? If it's a comeback, he just needed to settle into his spot and may have stumbled forward when he needed to stay in the spot where the football was thrown. If that's the case, holding his ground would've put him in good position to catch the pass and able to "box out" the defender. If he's supposed to continue the route towards the sidelines, then I can see how this would be an inaccurate throw. I'd need to see a replay or other angles to know for sure. Anybody with the game tape want to post this play/more screenshots prior to and shortly after this frame? There's also something to be said for receivers being able to still make a play on questionably-placed passes.

I thought the second interception intended for Jennings was worse and there was no excuse other than Teddy being late and throwing behind him. Frankly, it looked like a lazy throw.

[Mothman]

Just to play devil's advocate here...what route was Johnson running?

I get the NFL terminology mixed up but it's what we called a "down and out" when I was growing up (back in the dark ages). He took the route up the field and then cut horizontally to the outside.It wasn't a comeback route.

If it's a comeback, he just needed to settle into his spot and may have stumbled forward when he needed to stay in the spot where the football was thrown. If that's the case, holding his ground would've put him in good position to catch the pass and able to "box out" the defender. If he's supposed to continue the route towards the sidelines, then I can see how this would be an inaccurate throw. I'd need to see a replay or other angles to know for sure. Anybody with the game tape want to post this play/more screenshots prior to and shortly after this frame? There's also something to be said for receivers being able to still make a play on questionably-placed passes.

There is something to be said for that but Johnson never had a chance on this play. You can see the play at the beginning of the highlights here:

http://www.nfl.com/gamecenter/201412140 ... &tab=recap

If I get a chance later, I'll go back into the game and try to grab some more screenshots from the replay sequence, which is where I got the shot above.

I thought the second interception intended for Jennings was worse and there was no excuse other than Teddy being late and throwing behind him. Frankly, it looked like a lazy throw.

It was definitely worse.

[dead_poet]

I get the NFL terminology mixed up but it's what we called a "down and out" when I was growing up (back in the dark ages). He took the route up the field and then cut horizontally to the outside.It wasn't a comeback route.

There is something to be said for that but Johnson never had a chance on this play. You can see the play at the beginning of the highlights here:

http://www.nfl.com/gamecenter/201412140 ... &tab=recap

Yeah, I need the end zone angle. I can't tell a lick from that replay. All I get is the stumble. I think you may be right about the route going towards the sideline and the pass being high but I really can't tell.

If I get a chance later, I'll go back into the game and try to grab some more screenshots from the replay sequence, which is where I got the shot above.

That'd be great. Again, end zone would be helpful if it's available.

[Mothman]

Yeah, I need the end zone angle. I can't tell a lick from that replay. All I get is the stumble. I think you may be right about the route going towards the sideline and the pass being high but I really can't tell.
That'd be great. Again, end zone would be helpful if it's available.

It's not available until tomorrow.

[Pondering Her Percy]

Nevertheless, he forced the ball into double coverage and "took a shot' when it wasn't unnecessary. No matter how you slice it, it wasn't a good decision or a play that should be scratched off his stat sheet as meaningless, like the pick against the Jets.
I don't care what he said. The evidence is on tape. It was a bad throw. Look where the ball is in this screen shot:



Johnson is stumbling out of his break and the ball is coming in high. The throw would be behind him if he had kept running. The Detroit defender trailing Johnson is in better position to get the ball and is, in fact, leaping to try and tip it. That's a bad throw.
Yes, it happens and it's worthy of criticism. If criticizing a QB for throwing back-to-back, game-changing INTs, neither of which were accurate throws, is overly critical, what would be an appropriate level of criticism?
Claiming 4 of them weren't on him is being generous. Look, you asked what I don't like about Teddy's game, which is essentially asking me to be critical and now your response is that you think it's overly critical to say I don't like his INTs? What sort of response did you expect? Regardless of what you "almost guarantee", he doesn't have 6 picks in 10.5 games. He has 10. I understand that some weren't his fault or weren't a big deal but as Frosted just posted above, every QB has interceptions that aren't on them and every QB gets away with bad throws that don't show up on the stat sheet. These things tend to even out.

Charles Johnson is a 6'2 WR with a gigantic wing span and you show a screenshot that is angled to the right and has Johnson bending over? That shows me nothing. Look at the nose of the ball, it's pointing in front of Johnson. Actually listen to Johnsons interview. He specifically said, "oh yeah I would have had no problem catching it". Then someone asked him if it was high and he said it wasn't at all. I think Johnson can see what happens on the field a little better than any of us do so yeah, you should consider what he was saying. That screenshot shows me nothing.

I understand he has 10 ints but my point is, some are criticizing him for his ints like he throws them non stop when in all reality, only 6 of them were actually bad throws and I believe you wouldnt be saying "his INTs" if that stat sheet said 6 instead of 10. By no means am I saying he never has bad throws because he definitely has just like all QBs do. However, I'm not going to sit here and continue to point out his 10 ints when really, 6 were on him and we actually bad throws.

[Mothman]

Dead_poet, this is the best I can do without the coach's film. It's from the two broadcast replays of the play. I post it somewhat reluctantly because I've found that these still shots end up being more like Rorscach tests here on the board but I'll post them anyway and leave everybody to draw their own conclusions.

The first sequence is from the isolation replay. It starts just as Johnson is entering his break. In the second frame, he's beginning to stumble and the DET LB is beginning to react to the ball. I suspect they're both reacting and Johnson is stumbling because he's realizing the ball isn't on the same trajectory as his route and he he's realizing he needs to pull up. From there, you see Johnson continuing to stumble. the Lions player gets his hand relatively close to the pass. You can see from where the ball is over the course of the sequence that there's no way that was going to hit Johnson anywhere near the numbers if he had made a clean break and continued his route to the outside.

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The second sequence is from an endzone angle but doesn't show the whole field.

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[Pondering Her Percy]

The above shots just continue to prove my point. Look at the 2nd shot down from the top. Johnson is starting to put his hands up in front of him. Then look at the very last shot at the bottom....the ball is right out in front of him as he is being tripped up. IMO, by no means was that a bad throw and the screen shots prove that

Side note....good work on the screen shots Jim!