Do you want Johnny Manziel at #8?

[Mothman]

So, this begs the question. What is it that makes Cassel so much better? If he is better, why hasn't he been able to produce better results? Keep in mind this was an above average season by Cassel's standards, yet he was statistically still right in line with Ponder, who was worse than he played the previous year.

You're accusing people of not being objective. So let's hear your objective of analysis of why Cassel is so much better.

Good post!

What keeps me optimistic is Zimmer's hire of Turner. I think he recognizes that his strength is in defense and he needed a strong OC to hold the reigns for now. It's a good indicator that he can put his ego aside and realize his shortcomings. Assuming there's a solid synergy between the two and Zimmer keeps a hands on approach to the defense, both sides of the football should see an upgrade. The real unknown is all of the executive decisions Zimmer will need to make as a HC. He's going to have a lot more people in his ear as a HC than a DC, how he'll handle that is probably one of the bigger unknowns. We've seen a lot of guys that are really good coordinators but that's their ceiling. Hopefully Zimmer isn't one of them.

Well said and you got the core of the matter with the part in bold. There's no question that Zimmer is a good football coach and an excellent defensive coordinator and we should be able to expect him to do well in that area, assuming he can get the players he needs. It's how he handles the new and unfamiliar aspects of his job, the additional decisions, personnel management, in-game strategy, etc. that will likely make or break him as a head coach. Hopefully, he'll be one of the coordinators that goes on to win Super Bowls as a head coach.

(Seriously when did April start to have 45 days? This month is taking forever, is it May yet?!?!?)

Ha! It is a looong wait for the draft this year.

[Mothman]

It has nothing to do with having a man crush on this staff!!! They are PROVEN offensive and defensive minds. Its quite obvious. You also missed what I mentioned earlier.....I don't care about Edwards. Zimmer is going to tell Edwards what to do and he is going to do it. So you can call Zimmer our head coach and DC as well.

It's not so much fun to be accused of having a childish "man crush" when you actually have more substantial reasons for your views, is it?

As for Edwards... he's a part of the staff. If we're going to talk about the staff, the defensive coordinator is part of that equation and again, you are making assumptions about the degree to which Zimmer will choose to involve himself in the defense. I'm sure he'll run the system he wants to run and give his input but if I recall correctly, didn't he say in an interview

Frazier was in over his head. He had no balls and would never bench the bums that he had playing. It took injuries and off the field issues for him to finally put guys like Cole, Rhodes, and CP in the game.

yada, yada, yada, blah, blah, blah... I've heard it all before and it's unconvincing, if not just plain inaccurate (Rhodes played from game 1 on last year, he didn't have to wait to get in the game). Frazier benched players during his tenure. He made adjustments. He did most of the things he's accused of "never" doing. Armchair coaches think they'd be capable of making all the right moves and there's never any thought given to developing a player or letting him play through adversity, things real coaches have to actually consider. Not only do they have to consider these things, they're going to get them wrong sometimes. That's just human.

I think it was probably a mistake to not play Patterson more early on but I also don't know how much his grasp of the offense may have held him back or how much holding him back and working with him might have helped him deliver the big plays he made late in the season.

Handling the QB situation was horrible. His game management was horrible. His decision making was horrible. I mean that's pretty poor coaching in my eyes

Yes, everything was "horrible". Not just a mistake, but horrible. How did this "horrible" coach, his "moron" offensive coordinator and the rest of the staff manage to get the team to 10 wins in 2012? How did that staff manage to guide the team to a 4-3-1 finish after a very difficult, disappointing start last season? All of that certainly sounds like the work of "horrible" coaches to me. They certainly didn't coach flawlessly but you're engaging in the the same hyperbolic criticism I referred to above.

Bottom line is, nobody expected anything out of Frazier, Musgrave and Williams because they never proved a thing before getting hired and in turn, the only thing they ended up proving was that they weren't good coaches.Now we have 2 guys that have proven more than enough throughout their years in the NFL and are very experienced. Zimmer is a guy that utilizes players based on their skill set and what they are good at. He adapts to his players unlike Frazier ever did.

LOL! More hyperbole...

Are you kidding with comments like Frazier "never proved a thing before getting hired"? Am I supposed to believe the top 10 defenses he coached count for nothing but Zimmer's are the work of a "proven" coach? As I mentioned elsewhere, in 14 years in the NFL Zimmer has never even coached on a team that won a playoff game. I'm not saying that's his fault but if I were to use the kind of simplistic criteria you appear to be using to determine who is "proven" and who isn't, it would be pretty easy to use that as a big strike against him. After all, losing = bad coach, right? Not making the right, most insightful personnel moves each and every time is unforgivable. Showing patience with a struggling player or not thrusting an unprepared rookie into action immediately are surely signs of complete and utter incompetence! I'm sure Mike Zimmer has never, in his entire NFL career, done either of those things. I'll bet he's never even had a backup come in and outplay someone he had starting. Not once.

Until you tell me what he was "good" at other than being a nice guy, I will never change my opinion on him and his terrible coaching staff.

By pretty much any standard, he was a good defensive coordinator and his players repeatedly said he was a good leader and that his leadership helped them play through adversity and be successful. There's two for you...

[mondry]

Are you kidding with Frazier "never proved a thing before getting hired". The top 10 defenses he coached count for nothing but Zimmer's are the work of a "proven" coach? As I mentioned elsewhere, in 14 years in the NFL Zimmer has never even coached on a team that won a playoff game.

Just so you're aware, he was with the Cowboys in 1995 (when they won superbowl XXX against the steelers) and in 1996 when they won a wild card game against our very own Vikings. He wasn't head coach or defensive coordinator but he was the defensive backs coach so maybe that doesn't count in your book but I think it's a good experience to have.

[Mothman]

Just so you're aware, he was with the Cowboys in 1995 (when they won superbowl XXX against the steelers) and in 1996 when they won a wild card game against our very own Vikings. He wasn't head coach or defensive coordinator but he was the defensive backs coach so maybe that doesn't count in your book but I think it's a good experience to have.

It is good experience and thank you for pointing it out. It certainly "counts", although I'd view it in the same light as, for example, Alan Williams Super Bowl experience with the Colts.

In the context of the discussion above, I was referring to Zimmer's experience as a coordinator (thus the reference to 14 years) but I should have made that clearer. Anyway, I don't really hold the absence of a playoff win on his resumé as a coordinator against him. It takes a team to win a playoff game and his defenses have performed well in some playoff losses. My point was really that it becomes very easy to play these games of who is "proven" and who isn't if the criteria is simplistic. With both Frazier and Zimmer, I'm more inclined to look at their entire body of work and the degree of respect they each seem to command within the league. In both cases, they seem well-respected by their peers for the work they've done.

[The Breeze]

I feel like Yogi Berra in that movie Groundhog's day and it's deja vu all over again~

[mondry]

It is good experience and thank you for pointing it out. It certainly "counts", although I'd view it in the same light as, for example, Alan Williams Super Bowl experience with the Colts.

In the context of the discussion above, I was referring to Zimmer's experience as a coordinator (thus the reference to 14 years) but I should have made that clearer. Anyway, I don't really hold the absence of a playoff win on his resumé as a coordinator against him. It takes a team to win a playoff game and his defenses have performed well in some playoff losses. My point was really that it becomes very easy to play these games of who is "proven" and who isn't if the criteria is simplistic. With both Frazier and Zimmer, I'm more inclined to look at their entire body of work and the degree of respect they each seem to command within the league. In both cases, they seem well-respected by their peers for the work they've done.

Ah, no sweat, I should have been more astute to the 14 years reference you made.

Not that I wanted to get dragged into this, my comment was meant to be a neutral fact check but since I'm here, I think there's really only one way to look at it and that's that in the end, you just never know if a good d/o coordinator will become a good head coach.

You say you view it the same as Alan Williams super bowl experience with the colts, and I think I can agree to that, if you mean that's it's as close to worthless as you can really get! I mean how many times have we seen guys from top teams like the Pats (josh mcdaniels) get taken because they have good offenses and he's part of the some legendary coaching tree, etc and fail miserably? Wade Phillips, our own Norv Turner, the list can go on and on.

On the flip side, saying he has zero playoff wins in 14 years as a defensive coordinator also seems pretty worthless to me when determining if he'll be a good head coach or not.

My point is, no matter how experienced or what kind of success they've had, it basically means diddly for how good of a head coach they'll be. We can all hope and pray or whatever we like to do that Zimmer ends up being a HoF coach but for now I think it's pointless (and why I didn't join in the discussion earlier) to say we have a for sure upgrade or downgrade over Frazier.

[Mothman]

Ah, no sweat, I should have been more astute to the 14 years reference you made.

Not that I wanted to get dragged into this, my comment was meant to be a neutral fact check but since I'm here, I think there's really only one way to look at it and that's that in the end, you just never know if a good d/o coordinator will become a good head coach.

Now that you've been dragged into this, can you drag me out of it?

You say you view it the same as Alan Williams super bowl experience with the colts, and I think I can agree to that, if you mean that's it's as close to worthless as you can really get!

LOL! That's one way to interpret it. Basically, it is worthless as a way of predicting future success in a different position. I do think there's value in the experience though and a coach with a ring probably has something worthwhile to convey to players about the experience of earning that ring and what it took to become a champion.

On the flip side, saying he has zero playoff wins in 14 years as a defensive coordinator also seems pretty worthless to me when determining if he'll be a good head coach or not.

It IS worthless because it's overly simplistic and not really relevant as an indicator of future success in a different position with a different team. That's the point it was intended to convey.

My point is, no matter how experienced or what kind of success they've had, it basically means diddly for how good of a head coach they'll be. We can all hope and pray or whatever we like to do that Zimmer ends up being a HoF coach but for now I think it's pointless (and why I didn't join in the discussion earlier) to say we have a for sure upgrade or downgrade over Frazier.

Exactly.

[S197]

Now that you've been dragged into this, can you drag me out of it?

[Mothman]

[hibbingviking]

best player available whether its manziel, Watkins, mike evans, mack.

[mondry]

lol that's awesome

[mondry]

Now that you've been dragged into this, can you drag me out of it?

I'm already gone!

[Pondering Her Percy]

As for Edwards... he's a part of the staff. If we're going to talk about the staff, the defensive coordinator is part of that equation and again, you are making assumptions about the degree to which Zimmer will choose to involve himself in the defense. I'm sure he'll run the system he wants to run and give his input but if I recall correctly, didn't he say in an interview

With Zimmer being a defensive coach for years in this league, you actually think there's a chance he won't be THAT involved with the defense?? I sure hope not. I mean it's pretty ridiculous to think he is just going to hand over the reigns to a no name coach and let him run with it. If Edwards wants to do something Zimmer doesn't like, do you think Zimmer is just going to sit there and say "ok go ahead and do it how you want"?? Get real.

yada, yada, yada, blah, blah, blah... I've heard it all before and it's unconvincing, if not just plain inaccurate (Rhodes played from game 1 on last year, he didn't have to wait to get in the game). Frazier benched players during his tenure. He made adjustments. He did most of the things he's accused of "never" doing. Armchair coaches think they'd be capable of making all the right moves and there's never any thought given to developing a player or letting him play through adversity, things real coaches have to actually consider. Not only do they have to consider these things, they're going to get them wrong sometimes. That's just human.

I think it was probably a mistake to not play Patterson more early on but I also don't know how much his grasp of the offense may have held him back or how much holding him back and working with him might have helped him deliver the big plays he made late in the season.

Sorry but you're wrong here. Josh Robinson was starting the entire beginning of the year until he was injured. In turn, Rhodes then took over and played 30 times better than Robinson could ever think about playing. Rhodes was getting some time in the beginning of the year but was not starting and playing as often thats for sure. You can't sit there and tell me that in Week 1, Josh Robinson was a better CB than Rhodes because that's as false as it gets. I don't care if Rhodes was a rookie or not, that's just a stupid decision to begin with. Especially with as bad as Chris Cook was on the other side.

Frazier benched players during his tenure?? Who?? Oh are you talking about the QB carousel he created this past year?? How he threw Josh Freeman to the wolves, let him finish out the game when he clearly couldn't do a thing, and then finally benched him the following week?? Yeah I suppose he did bench someone Also, why did Matt Cassel ever come into the game for Ponder?? Lets just say it wasn't because he benched Ponder. It was because Ponder was injured. Either injury or legal issues were the ONLY reason he ever sat a player down on the bench. Clear as day....no getting around it.

If it wasn't for Ponder, Simpson, Henderson and Robinson getting injured/ in trouble when they did this season, we very well could currently have no clue what we have in guys like Cassel, CP, Cole and Rhodes. Bottom line is, he was too "buddy-buddy" with his players and never had the balls to look at a guy and say "Hey you know what, this player is playing better than you are so we are going to start him instead". Zimmer on the other hand, blows Frazier out of the water in this category.

Also, what "adjustments" did he EVER make?? I sure hope you aren't talking about his horrid 2 minute defense that let teams march down the field on us and caused us to lose in the final seconds. He did that how many times this year??? At least a handful. Players even lashed out about that and were ticked off with how he approached that.

How about how he continued to let his Special Teams coach continue to kick to Devin Hester week 2 and allow 263 return yards that essentially costed us that game. CP had a 105 yards KR TD that game and Chicago STILL had 113 more KR yards than we had. Great adjustment there Leslie. Let's just keep kicking to the guy that has embarrassed our ST for the past 5 years. Good idea. Funny thing is, the idiot FINALLY decides to pooch it to Hester at the very end of the game but too bad he had the worst 2 minute defense in the league and did nothing but drop his DB's so Cutler could nickel and dime us all the way down the field.

Yes, everything was "horrible". Not just a mistake, but horrible. How did this "horrible" coach, his "moron" offensive coordinator and the rest of the staff manage to get the team to 10 wins in 2012? How did that staff manage to guide the team to a 4-3-1 finish after a very difficult, disappointing start last season? All of that certainly sounds like the work of "horrible" coaches to me. They certainly didn't coach flawlessly but you're engaging in the the same hyperbolic criticism I referred to above.

OMG you have to be kidding me with this one First of all.....a mistake?? How is throwing Josh Freeman to the wolves when he had ZERO grasp on the playbook a mistake??? How is letting injuries and legal troubles decide when the better players get in the game a mistake?? How is only rushing 3-4 and dropping your DB's back with 2 minutes so teams can walk down the field on us a mistake?? How is having no sense of game management a mistake?? Give me a break!

Also, you really want to talk about the 10 win season?? I'll tell you how we got to 10 wins and his initials are AP. We were a bubble playoff team that barely squeaked in and you know just as well as anyone else.....if AP didn't have the year he had, there was no way we were making the playoffs that year. Not a chance in hell. He almost broke a damn record and we still barely got in. So don't sit here and try to preach to me that our staff was a big reason we managed 10 wins because that couldn't be anymore false.

LOL! More hyperbole...

Are you kidding with comments like Frazier "never proved a thing before getting hired"? Am I supposed to believe the top 10 defenses he coached count for nothing but Zimmer's are the work of a "proven" coach? As I mentioned elsewhere, in 14 years in the NFL Zimmer has never even coached on a team that won a playoff game. I'm not saying that's his fault but if I were to use the kind of simplistic criteria you appear to be using to determine who is "proven" and who isn't, it would be pretty easy to use that as a big strike against him. After all, losing = bad coach, right? Not making the right, most insightful personnel moves each and every time is unforgivable. Showing patience with a struggling player or not thrusting an unprepared rookie into action immediately are surely signs of complete and utter incompetence! I'm sure Mike Zimmer has never, in his entire NFL career, done either of those things. I'll bet he's never even had a backup come in and outplay someone he had starting. Not once.

By pretty much any standard, he was a good defensive coordinator and his players repeatedly said he was a good leader and that his leadership helped them play through adversity and be successful. There's two for you...

Successful at what?? He was 21-32-1 in his years as a head coach. I don't see that as successful whatsoever. Don't get me wrong, I didn't hate the guy. He was a stand-up guy that seemed like he had a good relationship with his players. However, he just wasn't a good coach. A decent DC that is unfortunately running a defense that is starting to become ineffective in the NFL. Especially with the way that he runs it. Mike Zimmer has been one of the most talked about coaches in this league for quite some time now. He is one of the most consistennt defensive coaches out there that is able to adjust around his players and utilize them properly. That is something that Frazier couldn't ever get a grasp on. He's the type of guy that would be a better assistant than a head coach. He is the complete opposite of Mike Zimmer in all aspects outside of maybe leadership. Frazier had NO fire to him, no emotion and no balls. That is why guys like him make better assistants because he is the guy that a player could go to after they just got their as$ chewed out by a real head coach and Frazier would sit there and say "don't worry about it, get it next time". Frazier might have been a good "locker room guy" but he was a terrible "on the field guy". I mean, it got to the point where it seemed like he had zero control over the team and his staff.

Zimmer has always been a better coach than Frazier and probably always will be so no matter what you say, my opinion won't ever change. Figured I would let you know that now.

[Mothman]

Zimmer has always been a better coach than Frazier and probably always will be so no matter what you say, my opinion won't ever change. Figured I would let you know that now.

Thanks and on that note, we're done. Thank goodness.

[DanAS]

best player available whether its manziel, Watkins, mike evans, mack.

The beauty of this year's draft is that we have SO many holes that we can almost certainly afford to go BPA.

The tragedy of this year's draft is that we have SO many holes that no matter how we draft, we can't contend for the title this year.

But my goal is to be "on the road" to contention, and if we can meet that, it will have been a great year. In the NFL, you can turn things around pretty darn quickly, and we just might have the coach (if not the GM) to do just that.