Do you want Johnny Manziel at #8?

[dead_poet]

He rarely plays from the pocket and takes off if his first read isn't there, sometimes even before.

While it's true Manziel scrambles a good deal, it's incorrect to state that he "rarely plays from the pocket." People have parroted this back and forth so many times, and when you combine it with just watching "highlight reels" that show off his escapability and scrambling ability that turns nothing into something, it's becoming gospel and somehow just assumed he does this every snap. It's also being assumed that he just didn't need to scramble, when in a lot of cases, it was a necessity due to natural pressure.

FWIW, he improved his pocket presence by quite a bit from his freshman to sophomore years. I'm not the only one that thinks so.

Strength: Excellent pocket presence; knows when to stand in and when to bail

http://nfldraftgeek.com/johnnymanziel_s ... eport.html

Looking at Manziel operate against Duke, I believe he has grown immensely as a pocket passer. He comfortably makes pinpoint throws from the pocket, exhibiting quiet feet and solid mechanics.

http://www.nfl.com/news/story/0ap200000 ... uarterback

And finally let’s talk about his pocket presence. Manziel gets the reputation of not having pocket presence, because he likes to leave the pocket at times with his scrambling nature. However, his pocket presence has improved tremendously from his redshirt freshmen season. He has shown flashes of the ability to climb the pocket, instead of leaving every time he senses the pass rush and manages outside and inside pressure relatively well. He’s very slippery in the pocket and dies hard if you want to sack him there.

http://www.allprofootballsource.com/can ... excel-nfl/

Of course, there are also reports that do say his pocket presence needs work, and I do think that's an accurate statement. But he works from the pocket (well) more than people give him credit for. Again, to say he rarely works from the pocket is incorrect.

Running around in the backfield for 10 seconds and throwing the ball up isn't gonna fly in the NFL.

Agreed. And while he's certainly done that in college (all QBs do), it's been less than many believe due to it being harped on all the time. As much as this gets said you'd think that all the guy does is take the snap, run around and play "500." Frankly, I like QBs that take some risks as opposed to Ponder, who at times appears afraid to pull the trigger for risk of making a mistake. But that's just me. If Manziel throws 25 INTs to 15 TDs, I'll clearly be unhappy.

The speed in the NFL is a lot different then in college, he'll be caught more often than not for sacks and those passes he just throws up will be intercepted or broken up more often than completed.

While the speed of the NFL is different than college, I don't agree that he'll necessarily get caught significantly more often. He escaped some of the fastest linebackers and defensive linemen in college football. He's made many, many talented defenders look absolutely silly. If you look at a guy like Roethlisberger...he was similarly elusive in college and that translated over. It's certainly possible he gets sacked a lot more often, but I don't think that's a certainty, especially if you give him a solid offensive line in front of him so he may not be forced to scramble in the first place.

Go back and watch the Chick Fil A Bowl and look how he got hit by Duke. It will be like that weekly in the NFL and be done by superior athletes than what Duke has. No one is gonna last getting hit like that.

I'm confused...Manziel went 30/38 (79%), 382 yards (10.1 YPA), 4 TDs, 0 INTs and 11 rushing attempts for 73 yards and another score. That game?

Add all this in to the fact that Turner's system calls for more of a pure pocket passer and there is absolutely no reason to draft him at #8.

I think there are plenty of reasons to draft him at #8. But I agree it'd be a gamble.

[Delaqure]

While it's true Manziel scrambles a good deal, it's incorrect to state that he "rarely plays from the pocket." People have parroted this back and forth so many times, and when you combine it with just watching "highlight reels" that show off his escapability and scrambling ability that turns nothing into something, it's becoming gospel and somehow just assumed he does this every snap. It's also being assumed that he just didn't need to scramble, when in a lot of cases, it was a necessity due to natural pressure.

FWIW, he improved his pocket presence by quite a bit from his freshman to sophomore years. I'm not the only one that thinks so.
http://nfldraftgeek.com/johnnymanziel_s ... eport.html
http://www.nfl.com/news/story/0ap200000 ... uarterback
http://www.allprofootballsource.com/can ... excel-nfl/

Of course, there are also reports that do say his pocket presence needs work, and I do think that's an accurate statement. But he works from the pocket (well) more than people give him credit for. Again, to say he rarely works from the pocket is incorrect.
Agreed. And while he's certainly done that in college (all QBs do), it's been less than many believe due to it being harped on all the time. As much as this gets said you'd think that all the guy does is take the snap, run around and play "500." Frankly, I like QBs that take some risks as opposed to Ponder, who at times appears afraid to pull the trigger for risk of making a mistake. But that's just me. If Manziel throws 25 INTs to 15 TDs, I'll clearly be unhappy.
While the speed of the NFL is different than college, I don't agree that he'll necessarily get caught significantly more often. He escaped some of the fastest linebackers and defensive linemen in college football. He's made many, many talented defenders look absolutely silly. If you look at a guy like Roethlisberger...he was similarly elusive in college and that translated over. It's certainly possible he gets sacked a lot more often, but I don't think that's a certainty, especially if you give him a solid offensive line in front of him so he may not be forced to scramble in the first place.
I'm confused...Manziel went 30/38 (79%), 382 yards (10.1 YPA), 4 TDs, 0 INTs and 11 rushing attempts for 73 yards and another score. That game?
I think there are plenty of reasons to draft him at #8. But I agree it'd be a gamble.

Thanks for that post. It helps me feel a bit bettter about drafting him if We do. From the negativity I was very worried about him. I'm sill on the fence but will have more understanding if we do pick him up. At least he will have more upside Han Ponder did.

[Texas Vike]

While it's true Manziel scrambles a good deal, it's incorrect to state that he "rarely plays from the pocket." People have parroted this back and forth so many times, and when you combine it with just watching "highlight reels" that show off his escapability and scrambling ability that turns nothing into something, it's becoming gospel and somehow just assumed he does this every snap. It's also being assumed that he just didn't need to scramble, when in a lot of cases, it was a necessity due to natural pressure.

FWIW, he improved his pocket presence by quite a bit from his freshman to sophomore years. I'm not the only one that thinks so.
http://nfldraftgeek.com/johnnymanziel_s ... eport.html
http://www.nfl.com/news/story/0ap200000 ... uarterback
http://www.allprofootballsource.com/can ... excel-nfl/

Of course, there are also reports that do say his pocket presence needs work, and I do think that's an accurate statement. But he works from the pocket (well) more than people give him credit for. Again, to say he rarely works from the pocket is incorrect.
Agreed. And while he's certainly done that in college (all QBs do), it's been less than many believe due to it being harped on all the time. As much as this gets said you'd think that all the guy does is take the snap, run around and play "500." Frankly, I like QBs that take some risks as opposed to Ponder, who at times appears afraid to pull the trigger for risk of making a mistake. But that's just me. If Manziel throws 25 INTs to 15 TDs, I'll clearly be unhappy.
While the speed of the NFL is different than college, I don't agree that he'll necessarily get caught significantly more often. He escaped some of the fastest linebackers and defensive linemen in college football. He's made many, many talented defenders look absolutely silly. If you look at a guy like Roethlisberger...he was similarly elusive in college and that translated over. It's certainly possible he gets sacked a lot more often, but I don't think that's a certainty, especially if you give him a solid offensive line in front of him so he may not be forced to scramble in the first place.
I'm confused...Manziel went 30/38 (79%), 382 yards (10.1 YPA), 4 TDs, 0 INTs and 11 rushing attempts for 73 yards and another score. That game?
I think there are plenty of reasons to draft him at #8. But I agree it'd be a gamble.

I was waiting for you to chime in! Nice post.

[NextQuestion]

Do people not like Manziel because he's a big figure in the media? Watch him play, he's a good leader and is a good QB.

[Loki]

OK I think a lot of people need to watch the video below because you have a misconstrued view of Johnny's pocket passing. He's a very good passer out of the pocket, its not like its a weakness. Consider that this highlight video is as good if not better than many highlights of strictly pocket passers. Johnny has only started 2 years and showed great improvement in the pocket between the first and second year. He completed 73% of his passes from the pocket compared to 65% his first year. We need to view johnny's scrambling and running as a bonus to his pocket passing if refined, which it will. I think Norv could do wonders with johnny, he completed the highest % of 20+ throws of any QB in the draft and could be rolled out of the pocket frequently due to defenses keying on Adrian Peterson. I understand those who give valid reasons for not wanting Johnny Football but i think many here simply don't like his as a person and therefore discount him without any reason.

P.S. I hate the song in this video. #### nickelback!

[dead_poet]

I also get a bit irked when people bring up LSU. They seem to completely ignore the fact that he won all but six games in his short college career (this season with one of the worst defenses in all of college football). Don't discount his struggles in that game, but also don't use the small sample size to prove he can't do something. It's like people expect him to be perfect if he's even to be in consideration to be drafted before the fourth round. Heck, Andrew Luck lost against Oregon his last two seasons (tossing four picks in the process) before joining the pros. You really need to evaluate his entire body of work. Like 95% of all QBs coming out of college (especially underclassmen), he's not perfect. But he has a lot of qualities/abilities that have the potential to make him a franchise QB.

[Texas Vike]

I also get a bit irked when people bring up LSU. They seem to completely ignore the fact that he won all but six games in his short college career (this season with one of the worst defenses in all of college football). Don't discount his struggles in that game, but also don't use the small sample size to prove he can't do something. It's like people expect him to be perfect if he's even to be in consideration to be drafted before the fourth round. Heck, Andrew Luck lost against Oregon his last two seasons (tossing four picks in the process) before joining the pros. You really need to evaluate his entire body of work. Like 95% of all QBs coming out of college (especially underclassmen), he's not perfect. But he has a lot of qualities/abilities that have the potential to make him a franchise QB.

I mentioned LSU upthread, but I don't believe I have failed to see his body of work with an eye to the complete picture. I mentioned that game because I watched it live and it was the only time I saw him play and look completely ineffective. He just didn't look himself. If I remember right, though, he was playing injured, so that might explain some of his struggles that day. You are right though, one bad game should not lead to any "conclusions" about him as a prospect.

Nice Video posted, Loki, and I agree with the music. Whoever chose that tune was not doing JFB any favors in downplaying the character concerns! "I want keys to the front door of the playboy mansion" !? Yeah. Great. Me too.

[mondry]

HECK YEAH I want Manziel at #8! what kind of question is that! I highly doubt he'll be there but who knows? He's imo already the best college QB of this class and he also happens to have the most potential long term. He's shown he has the fire to take the criticism and turn it into hard work and fixing his game. People said he wasn't a pocket passer so he spent all offseason working on it. People said he couldn't do blah blah blah and he comes back capable of it.

He gets a bad rap as the spoiled rich kid with too much attitude but I think his heart and soul is 100% into being a great QB that can lead a team to the superbowl. In other words (and I hate this term) he has a chip on his shoulder from all the haters that keep saying he can't do this, he can't do that, he's too small. If partying and being a punk was that important to him, he wouldn't have improved as much as he did in the offseason.

Not that they're the same QB's but it's this kind of crap that makes Russell Wilson a 3rd rounder and everyone regretting not taking him. If Manziel is there at #8 I want him! Spielman might be a little gun shy when it comes to QB's early though but in my opinion I don't think you can pass up Manziel at #8, there is just too much to like imo.

[King James]

I just thought I should add a reason to my not wanting Manziel. I have in other threads but here all I did was quote a gif.


Forget about his attitude and all that other stuff, I simply don't think his game will translate to the NFL. He rarely plays from the pocket and takes off if his first read isn't there, sometimes even before. Running around in the backfield for 10 seconds and throwing the ball up isn't gonna fly in the NFL. The speed in the NFL is a lot different then in college, he'll be caught more often than not for sacks and those passes he just throws up will be intercepted or broken up more often than completed.

His size, coupled with his play style will/could also lead to a proneness to injury. Just look at Michael Vick's career. Go back and watch the Chick Fil A Bowl and look how he got hit by Duke. It will be like that weekly in the NFL and be done by superior athletes than what Duke has. No one is gonna last getting hit like that.

Then there's the height factor. People will point out Brees and Wilson, but they're the exceptions not the rule.

Add all this in to the fact that Turner's system calls for more of a pure pocket passer and there is absolutely no reason to draft him at #8.

This and he probably won't have Mike Evans to bail him out anymore in the passing game. 5'11, eager to run out of the pocket, dancing around the backfield trying to extend play, and little to no pocket presence will kill him at the NFL level.

But Manzel apologist always come with the, "He can still make plays regardless." That's in college. Many QBs have looked like superstars in the college level. But as you said, doesn't mean that it will translate to the NFL. I guarantee Manziel will be a bust.

[smoothoperator]

This and he probably won't have Mike Evans to bail him out anymore in the passing game. 5'11, eager to run out of the pocket, dancing around the backfield trying to extend play, and little to no pocket presence will kill him at the NFL level.

But Manzel apologist always come with the, "He can still make plays regardless." That's in college. Many QBs have looked like superstars in the college level. But as you said, doesn't mean that it will translate to the NFL. I guarantee Manziel will be a bust.

Exactly this. Manziel is going to bomb in the NFL. If we draft him all hope will be lost.

[dead_poet]

This and he probably won't have Mike Evans to bail him out anymore in the passing game.

Enough of this. Evans had exactly 2,499 receiving yards over the last two seasons. For the sake of argument, we'll say that Manziel threw all of them. This represents only 32% of all of Manziel's total passing yardage. This means that he accumulated 68% of his passing yards throwing to other receivers. Now, let's talk about touchdowns. Evans caught 17 in his two-year career. Manziel has thrown 63 touchdowns, meaning Evans accounted for less than 23% of all of Manziel's passing touchdowns. Let's also not forget that Evans wouldn't have had the career he did with just any QB. Yes, Manziel threw a lot of passes to Evans when he was covered, because Evans proved he could win those contested situations and Manziel had enough guts and trust that he would. That's what good quarterbacks and receivers do. I'm guessing if he didn't have Evans, he wouldn't have taken quite as many chances. I could be wrong. But we'll never know. Evans made Manziel a better QB, yes, but just like Manziel made Evans a better receiver. They worked off each other and it worked very, very well. This "bailed him out" garbage is the talk of the uninformed and unobservant. Did Manziel throw unadvised passes? Yes. Most QBs do. Maybe he threw more than his fair share. But he also completed more than his fair share, too. I don't know why you stop what's clearly working. It's like if Adrian Peterson stopped running so violently or decided to slow down and be more careful. Does his style get him in trouble? Yes. But it also is part of what makes him great.

But Manzel apologist always come with the, "He can still make plays regardless." That's in college. Many QBs have looked like superstars in the college level. But as you said, doesn't mean that it will translate to the NFL.

Sure. Some do, some don't. We have no idea. But we also don't know that his game won't translate to the NFL. I find it interesting you have this much conviction from your clearly limited observations.

I guarantee Manziel will be a bust.

We'll see. You can't guarantee Manziel will be a bust any more than McCarron will be a superstar.

[sotapopinski]

I voted no simply because of the fact that I believe someone else will be there at #8 that could step in and help this team more. I still believe Manziel can be successful in this league, but don't think it will happen immediately. Mack, Mosley, Gilbert, Dennard... heck, even Clinton-Dix intrigues me if the Vikes were to trade back and Gilbert/Dennard are gone.

[NextQuestion]

OK, so he may not have Mike Evans, but he'd have Jennings and Rudolph here who are sure handed guys. Imagine him with Patterson too!

[Texas Vike]

Enough of this. Evans had exactly 2,499 receiving yards over the last two seasons. For the sake of argument, we'll say that Manziel threw all of them. This represents only 32% of all of Manziel's total passing yardage. This means that he accumulated 68% of his passing yards throwing to other receivers. Now, let's talk about touchdowns. Evans caught 17 in his two-year career. Manziel has thrown 63 touchdowns, meaning Evans accounted for less than 23% of all of Manziel's passing touchdowns. Let's also not forget that Evans wouldn't have had the career he did with just any QB. Yes, Manziel threw a lot of passes to Evans when he was covered, because Evans proved he could win those contested situations and Manziel had enough guts and trust that he would. That's what good quarterbacks and receivers do. I'm guessing if he didn't have Evans, he wouldn't have taken quite as many chances. I could be wrong. But we'll never know. Evans made Manziel a better QB, yes, but just like Manziel made Evans a better receiver. They worked off each other and it worked very, very well. This "bailed him out" garbage is the talk of the uninformed and unobservant. Did Manziel throw unadvised passes? Yes. Most QBs do. Maybe he threw more than his fair share. But he also completed more than his fair share, too. I don't know why you stop what's clearly working. It's like if Adrian Peterson stopped running so violently or decided to slow down and be more careful. Does his style get him in trouble? Yes. But it also is part of what makes him great.

There goes my booming business of picking up a buck every time the "Evans bailed out JFB" card got played! DP you just sent stock prices diving in my company!

[sotapopinski]

OK, so he may not have Mike Evans, but he'd have Jennings and Rudolph here who are sure handed guys. Imagine him with Patterson too!

Hopefully our O-line could block long enough to give him a chance, otherwise we'd be seeing a lot more J. Football scrambling highlight videos.