Frazier Hints Freeman Didn't Get a Fair Shake

[mansquatch]

I wasn't intending to down play the new HC euphoria, I'm excited about that as well. FWIW, I also agree that Zimmer/Turner is a better coaching combo than Frasier/Musgrave.

I'm just being sober about the QB situation. I think your take on acquiring the next QB is mostly correct. However, I think Turner/Zimmer will have some say in who they take since they'll have the coach the kid. I also think a coach with Turner's offensive pedigree will likely at least be listened to. This is all good, IMO.

Where I think things get interesting is the future of Cassell. Cassell can opt out of 2014 if he so chooses. IMO retaining his services is very important as it means the Vikings have options, albeit short term at the position. I do not think Zimmer and co should cater to Cassel, but how the first impression goes down will probably have an impact on whether or not Cassel sticks around.

[Mothman]

I think he was put in position to fail and consequently, he failed.

We can ride the Freeman/Ponder/Cassel merry-go-round forever and talk about what impact it had on Frazier's demise as head coach but the bottom line is that it happened because they didn't have a good #1 option to play the position in the first place. Add that player to the roster and suddenly, there is no QB carousel, there is no reason fro Frazier to switch QBs. It's easy to second guess his choices at the position but he had no definitive solution available to him. It's tough to solve a problem at QB when there's no good answer on the roster.

As you said, the QB situation remains the elephant in the room. If they want Turner to come in and run his take on the "Air Coryell" offense, they'd better have a QB who can run it effectively.

I feel you have a very strong love for Frazier Why? I'm not sure[/quote]

II just respect the overall job he did and, as I said, I think he was set up to fail in 2013. I think he's a good coach who was dealt a losing hand and he became a scapegoat for a fanbase (and an organization) that needed one.

I think it's ridiculous to take a coach in his third season, coming off an unexpected playoff season and essentially say "win or you're fired" while simultaneously giving him Ponder, Cassel, MBT and then Freeman as his QB options. To then expect him to go out, win consistently with those QBs and the roster he had, while also not showing any signs of the desperation to win he must, inevitably, have been feeling was unrealistic.

I could go on but it would just be a rehash of the same old arguments and I realize I'm not going t change anybody's mind anyway. Suffice to say, I don't have a "strong love" for Frazier anymore than you have a "strong love" for Spielman or than the people doing backflips over the Zimmer hire have a "strong love" for Zimmer. I just call things as I see them and n Frazier's case, I don't see the job he did as head coach the way the legion of fans who couldn't wait to see him run out of town saw it.

[BGM]

FraZier

I see what you did there.

[losperros]

So now the question becomes - is our QB situation (let's say we retain Cassel and Ponder and draft a rookie, for arguments sake):
Better with Zimmer/Turner and staff, or better with FraZier/Musgrave and staff?

I think part of the "Zimmer euphoria" is that a lot of us are guessing the Zimmer/Turner combo will be much better suited to deal with it. I guess we'll see.

Yes, we'll see. Hopefully, the tiresome debates over the past will give in to some forward thinking. It's Frazier's fault. No, wait, it's Spielman's doing. Who put Ponder in there so long? What about Freeman?

My take: Who gives a #### at this point? The only thing for certain is the Vikings have moved on. Maybe we should, too. Let's see what happens now.

[BGM]

The only thing for certain is the Vikings have moved on. Maybe we should, too. Let's see what happens now.

This is what excites me more than anything.

[PacificNorseWest]

Moth: Just wanted to say that I have always respected your opinions because how in-depth they are. You go beyond most of the surface-level thinking that plagues most fans and media personalities. It's refreshing.

#Wisdom


I agree about Frazier. Really like the guy. That he could have been a Dungy-esque coach. I think on a team with the personnel already in place, he would be an extremely great fit. For a team trying to go young and needing to fill a lot of holes, just didn't seem like his forte. It's hard to really evaluate the real from the rumors when none of us our in the meeting rooms or on the field.

[VikingLord]

http://profootballtalk.nbcsports.com/20 ... minnesota/

This is really funny reading for one reason - isn't figuring this all out something a team does in the preseason?

I think the real problem wasn't when or even that Freeman joined the team. The real problem was the Vikings decided Ponder was the starter before they apparently were convinced Ponder was the starter. If you know a guy is your starter, then what the heck are you doing still evaluating the position mid-way through a season? The only way a team gets itself in that mess in the first place is if they decide something must be a certain way even when the evidence suggests it isn't. All Frazier's quote tells me is he, Spielman, and everyone else who decided Ponder was the starter heading into the season wasn't convinced Ponder was the best option at QB on the roster.

That they thought Cassel was possibly inferior is just baffling to me as well. Cassel is certainly not a star, but worse than Ponder? Not by a long shot IMHO. Cassel is at least capable of spotting and hitting mid-range targets and coming off his first read. He throws the ball with some conviction and accuracy, and his mechanics are light-years more consistent than Ponder's.

As far as Freeman goes, he earned his way out of Tampa by performing poorly on the field and erratically off it, and he followed that up by finding a team willing to pay him $3 million for a game where he couldn't hit the broad side of a barn. He may not have known the plays all that well or the system, but that doesn't explain the numerous overthrows and just complete misses we saw in that single game. In no way do I feel bad for him. What will disgust me is if Spielman resigns him and he gets another chance. There *have* to be more viable options than Freeman at QB that Spielman can spend the Wilf's money on.

[psjordan]

[My take: Who gives a #### at this point?

Honestly, I don't think any of us REALLY care at this point why Frazier was fired.

I will say this however, I think we need to make allowances for what we all DON'T know about certain situations. It is entirely possible that at the start of Ponder's second season the ownership asked Frazier about him, and Frazier's reply was along the lines of "Guys, I got this. Kid's not that good right now but when I get a full season with him he'll be special". Perhaps THAT is why Frazier was let go. Who knows but those directly involved?

Nothing we post or discuss here is of any importance whatsoever in the real world. We're just blasting opinions, which is basically what this place is for. Goodness Craig, if "who gives a #### at this point" was the litmus test for whether I posted anything here, I'da never made it out of the newsgroup.

[radar55]

This is what excites me more than anything.

Agreed....sometimes change is necessary to bring on excitement and hope for the future . I remember the euphoria when D. Green was fired and all the excitement with Tice (he lasted 4 years) then with Childress (he lasted 4 years) and then with Frazier (he lasted 3 years). Now, most fans (myself included) are once again re energized believing that Zimmer and his staff will demand a new approach which will result in a new outcome but, as we have seen in the past.......that change has to take place and relatively quickly or we will once again be looking for change.

[Purple Reign]

He got 3 million dollars for keeping the bench warm. After an average QB rating of 45.5 in TB, and being a headcase. I think he did ok. Wish I could get bent over for half as much.

Hell, he didn't even keep the bench warm. He was inactive for almost every game after the one he started.

[Pondering Her Percy]

II just respect the overall job he did and, as I said, I think he was set up to fail in 2013. I think he's a good coach who was dealt a losing hand and he became a scapegoat for a fanbase (and an organization) that needed one.

I think it's ridiculous to take a coach in his third season, coming off an unexpected playoff season and essentially say "win or you're fired" while simultaneously giving him Ponder, Cassel, MBT and then Freeman as his QB options. To then expect him to go out, win consistently with those QBs and the roster he had, while also not showing any signs of the desperation to win he must, inevitably, have been feeling was unrealistic.

I could go on but it would just be a rehash of the same old arguments and I realize I'm not going t change anybody's mind anyway. Suffice to say, I don't have a "strong love" for Frazier anymore than you have a "strong love" for Spielman or than the people doing backflips over the Zimmer hire have a "strong love" for Zimmer. I just call things as I see them and n Frazier's case, I don't see the job he did as head coach the way the legion of fans who couldn't wait to see him run out of town saw it.

You say he was set up for failure with that QB situation but the thing is....it wasn't our offense that was struggling. It was our defense....the area that Frazier was suppose to be so "good" at. Regardless of the QB....we were still putting up points but our defense couldn't stop a pop warner team. Bottom line is, he was running an out-dated scheme that let teams march right down the field on us. Granted, we had some holes on defense but talent wise, there is no way that defense should be the worst in the league I don't care what anyone says.

[Mothman]

Moth: Just wanted to say that I have always respected your opinions because how in-depth they are. You go beyond most of the surface-level thinking that plagues most fans and media personalities. It's refreshing.

Thank you very much. I sincerely appreciate that and honestly, i enjoy reading your posts for the same reason.

I agree about Frazier. Really like the guy. That he could have been a Dungy-esque coach. I think on a team with the personnel already in place, he would be an extremely great fit. For a team trying to go young and needing to fill a lot of holes, just didn't seem like his forte. It's hard to really evaluate the real from the rumors when none of us our in the meeting rooms or on the field.

It certainly is...

Hopefully, Frazier will get another chance to be a head coach and end up in a situation that's a better fit for him. He seems like one of the good guys and it's nice to see the good guys win.

[PacificNorseWest]

Thank you very much. I sincerely appreciate that and honestly, i enjoy reading your posts for the same reason.

Ditto.

[PurpleKoolaid]

People really think Fraizer asked Rickie to bring in Freeman to save the day? And that Fraizer forced Freeman to play before he was ready? Are you insane? Fraizer doesn't play anyone till he sees they are perfect in practice (which is waiting far too long in a lot of cases). And yet he starter Freeman right away? Get a clue. This was all Rickie. Fraizier didn't have a choice. In fact, I wonder how many choices he had at all during this last season. I wonder how Zimmer is going to handle Rickie's heavy hand.

[Demi]

I wonder how Zimmer is going to handle Rickie's heavy hand.

That's what gives me the most hope. Although the way he talked about Spielman in the press conference....and considering he gave him his first shot he might feel he owes him something.

Let's hope not. Let the coaches coach. And get your grubby fingers out of any "discussions" about the QB position...much less having ownership involved...