Difference between the vikings and a playoff team...

[Purple Reign]

My point is that if you accept the premise the coaches suck, then you have to accept that the talent is at a disadvantage and will look worse than it is. And the reason that's important is because if you start replacing everyone at once you lose the ability to discern where the problem really was, and you might just trade old problems for new ones.

My point is if you accept the premise that the talent sucks, then you have to accept that the coaching is at a disadvantage and will look worse than it is. You can have the perfect plan laid out on paper, but if the players don't have the talent to execute it then coaching can't overcome that. On the other hand, superior talent can overcome some bad coaching. I'm saying that it works both ways and in reality I'm sure it is a problem with both coaching and a lack of talent. I'm not saying we don't have any talent, we obviously do with some players, but there are several players that haven't lived up to their potential and need to be replaced.

[Webbfann]

But I don't accept the premise that the talent sucks. And we certainly see no "perfect plan" here, we see a poor plan with no margin for error= bad plan=bad coaching. I can't find any way to blame players (not even Cook) for conservative playcalling, cover-nothiing defense, lack of imagination, run run pass, lack of in-game adjustments, inability to put the best players on the field, lack of an aggressive play to win philosophy. These things are bad coaching, through and through. I don't disagree some upgrades are in order on defense, and that we need to draft (but not reach for) a QB. But change only the coaches and a few players on defense and we're immediately a .500 or maybe even 9-7 team. Then we can evaluate the talent we have and how to tweak it to become an 11-5 team.

My point is if you accept the premise that the talent sucks, then you have to accept that the coaching is at a disadvantage and will look worse than it is. You can have the perfect plan laid out on paper, but if the players don't have the talent to execute it then coaching can't overcome that. On the other hand, superior talent can overcome some bad coaching. I'm saying that it works both ways and in reality I'm sure it is a problem with both coaching and a lack of talent. I'm not saying we don't have any talent, we obviously do with some players, but there are several players that haven't lived up to their potential and need to be replaced.

[Hunter Morrow]

The main difference is 21st century philosophy. We play a passe and ineffective defensive scheme to our worst points allowed in franchise history and some people STILL want 4-3 Cover Two.

We are a run first, checkdown pass ANTIQUATED offense. Pass before the line of scrimmage Worse than big ten caveman offense.

We let our best assistants and coordinators leave, promote the worst people we have to key leadership positions. We havent had a good coach since Denny Green.

[Fan_in_Kettering]

There's a reason we didn't keep Leslie Frazier around in Cincinnati: Insufficient aggression. Leslie was Marvin Lewis' first defensive coordinator but the results weren't what Marvin wanted. What I saw in the game last week in Cincinnati -- I was there -- was Minnesota's defense playing like the 2003 Bengals: Weak pass rush and loose coverage. Take a page from current Bengals defensive coordinator Mike Zimmer and just knock the offensive linemen on their butts on every play and play man coverage. It works.

[Demi]

Take a page from current Bengals defensive coordinator Mike Zimmer and just knock the offensive linemen on their butts on every play and play man coverage. It works.

Maybe if we had corners that could cover...and defensive linemen and linebackers that could knock anyone on their butts.

[Purple Reign]

Maybe if we had corners that could cover...and defensive linemen and linebackers that could knock anyone on their butts.

[Just Me]

But I don't accept the premise that the talent sucks. And we certainly see no "perfect plan" here, we see a poor plan with no margin for error= bad plan=bad coaching. I can't find any way to blame players (not even Cook) for conservative playcalling, cover-nothing defense, lack of imagination, run run pass, lack of in-game adjustments, inability to put the best players on the field, lack of an aggressive play to win philosophy. These things are bad coaching, through and through.

Cook is a really poor example to use (regardless if I agree or disagree with your premise) as it undermines your argument. He is in the correct position to make the play (IMO - reflective of coaching, and the proper defensive play call) but he simply doesn't. Other than the coaches actually going onto the field to actually play for Cook, I don't see how they can do much more there.

(For the record - I think we have issues at coaching, I just think Cook is not the best argument. The "cover-nothing" might be a little more effective if Cook could...you know...raise his arms or something while defending a pass. I'm not a fan of the Cover-2 either. I wish we'd switch to another strategy)

[indianation65]

Living in cowboys land I've had to see the 'boys feed off prevent defenses squirreling out in many wins over the last few years. Hit Witten over the middle over and over then snatch a victory in the last minute. The Vikings dc has learned nothing. The Vikes defense is so terrible and has given away wins this year because they have been coached to do so. It's maddening how prevent d prevents wins for the leading team! Sure, better deep coverage would help, but good grief. The Vikes are low on the ladder and get no NFL love because of this very reason. They may have not been a SB contender, but they could have challenged for the north. Lions, p and bears are not that much better, despite qb play! Well, despite plunder as the starter...

Addendum: Oh, have I mentioned how painful it is to live in cowboys land?! JJones does give me some pleasure!

...wisdom

[chicagopurple]

Unimaginitive game planning on offense.
STUBBORNLY refusing talented players to getthe ball ALL FREKIN season (Cordarelle, Cassel vs PointlessPonder), etc)
Horribly predictable and failed defensive scheme (COver 2 till you pulke followed by 4th quarter Prevent that Prevents our victories)
etc etc

[Purple Reign]

The Vikes defense is so terrible and has given away wins this year because they have been coached to do so.

That is one of the most idiotic statements I've seen here in a while.

[indianation65]

Mr. Purple Reign, it appears we both have a way with words don't we. I wrote that sentence as a way of stating the Vikings defensive coaches use the prevent defense a lot, which often times doesn't work, which is a familiar sentiment by most Vikings forum members. You basically call me an idiot. It happens...but as a Vikings fan since 70, I've toughened up. The Natives Have Spoken...go Vikes!

...wisdom

[Purple Reign]

Mr. Purple Reign, it appears we both have a way with words don't we. I wrote that sentence as a way of stating the Vikings defensive coaches use the prevent defense a lot, which often times doesn't work, which is a familiar sentiment by most Vikings forum members. You basically call me an idiot. It happens...but as a Vikings fan since 70, I've toughened up. The Natives Have Spoken...go Vikes!

...wisdom

I don't disagree that the coaching staff uses the prevent which most of the time doesn't work. But stating that the coaching staff is coaching the players to lose is a bit over the top, don't you think?

[thatguy]

I don't disagree that the coaching staff uses the prevent which most of the time doesn't work. But stating that the coaching staff is coaching the players to lose is a bit over the top, don't you think?

I think his assessment is more that the coaches have been coaching with a "play not to lose" mentality than a "play to win the game" mentality. Which is a fair argument even though I disagree with it. I think we saw a lot more of it with Childress than we do/did with Frazier.

[PurpleHalo]

I don't know if they did it in all those games but they did it in some of them. They lost anyway.
No, they don't, but people clearly make that assumption.

Not an assumption, they did it late against Chicago and Detroit the first 2 games, and against the Steelers in the 3rd quarter, and almost watched it slip away.

[Eli]

There are significant and obvious holes in the Vikings' personnel, but I'm not convinced that it's nearly as bad as some surmise. The coaching decisions made this season have been horrific.