And the plot thickens

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saint33
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And the plot thickens

Post by saint33 »

So I'm sure you all remember the 3rd down play near the end of the game that seemed to be short of the red "1st down line", the announcers called for a 4th down play, but the refs moved the sticks and gave the Ravens 1st and goal on the 8 yard line, which would eventually result in the first score of the crazy sequence of TDs at the end of the game.

Many people on this board were outraged, claiming it to be a horrible spot and that the refs were at it again, trying everything they could to screw us over. However a few members noticed what I noticed, and that was that the TV's red first down line was actually a full yard ahead of the actual first down marker, and that the Ravens TE did indeed catch the ball at the marker. So at the time, I just wrote it off as a mistake by the broadcast booth, as they often do say the 1st down line is not official.

But while reading the comments on Facebook of a picture posted about the horrible officiating game today, I stumbled upon this comment:
Horrible job by ref's today, if you recorded the game, go to 5:03 left in fourth quarter. Check the spot of the ball on the pass interference. Then check the guy with the FIRST down stick. He marks it 1st and 9. REFS DON'T CORRECT IT. the Vikings hold them the next 3 plays to 9 yards. Ref's give them a first down. What the hell?? This not as obvious as all the other BS calls but makes ya wonder about the agenda.

This seemed pretty fishy to me, but seeing how it actually explained the horrible off place red first down line, I decided to check it out.

And sure enough, Dan Christiansen was indeed correct, and I have photo evidence to prove it.


The play directly after the phanom PI call on Blanton:

(I have reduced the sizes of these images as not screw with the margins, but if anyone wants to see them clearer, I can post them)

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Baltimore has the ball 1st and 10 on the Minnesota 17 yard line. The TV's red first down line is correctly placed at the 7 yard line, however you can clearly see that the sticks are right in line with the 8 yard line..... First and 10 is actually first and 9

Sharrif Floyd tackles Bernard Pierce for a 3 yard loss, leading to:

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2nd and 13 from just behind the 20 yard line. This one is harder to tell because of the score being in the way, but it is still pretty clear that the red line is about a yard further than the sticks and the sticks are still at the 8 yard line, only 12 yards away from the line of scrimmage.

After a 7 yard pass to Ed Dickson:

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3rd and 6 from just behind the 13 yard line. As you can see, nothing has changed, the Ravens only need 5 yards on 3rd and 6

Here is the pass to Pitta:

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and the subsequent spotting of the "1st down"

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As you can see, the ball is spotted correctly and as far as anyone who wasn't paying attention (which apparently was everyone), it looks like a properly called first down. But that's far from the case.


Making matters worse, here's what nfl.com has listed for the play-by-play for the sequence:

1-10-MIN 17 (5:03) (No Huddle, Shotgun) 30-B.Pierce left guard to MIN 20 for -3 yards (95-S.Floyd).
2-13-MIN 20 (4:32) (Shotgun) 5-J.Flacco pass short middle to 84-E.Dickson to MIN 13 for 7 yards (57-A.Cole).
3-6-MIN 13 (4:03) (No Huddle, Shotgun) 5-J.Flacco pass short right to 88-D.Pitta to MIN 7 for 6 yards (52-C.Greenway).
1-7-MIN 7 (3:20) 27-R.Rice left guard to MIN 1 for 6 yards (34-A.Sendejo).



Everything looks good until you get to the bolded part. The play is listed as 1st and goal from the 7 yard line. You look at the above image and tell me that's from the 7 yard line........


This is an absolute joke.
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Mothman
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Re: And the plot thickens

Post by Mothman »

Thanks for putting that together. The league needs to suspend that officiating crew after that debacle of a performance. The Vikes will probably get an apology from the NFL but it won't change the fact that they were repeatedly screwed by the refs in that game. :(
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Re: And the plot thickens

Post by majorm »

Wait. Is the chain only on one side of the field? I guess I forgot that since I've surely noticed it in all my years watching football. But even so, with the chain, this shouldn't be able to happen. You put one end of the chain where the ball is spotted on first down and the the marker at the other end of the chain, ten yards away. How is it possible for them to mess that up. The guy in your pics clearly set up at the wrong spot and nobody caught it.
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Texas Vike
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Re: And the plot thickens

Post by Texas Vike »

Wow. Nice work. Your whole post deserves to be read by NFL execs, in addition to a list of other blunders of this officiating crew. There were so many advantages given to Baltimore that you really do have to wonder WTH.
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Re: And the plot thickens

Post by Just Me »

I'm going to throw something out there that I don't think will be too well-received, but I'm going to say it anyway:

1) The Refs screwed up - No getting around it. The Ravens (in essence) were the recipient of a series of downs which required them only to net 9 yards to continue the drive.
2) The players (obviously) do not see the "TV lines" projected for those of us who were watching the game on TV, so they would have based their play on the actual markers on the field.
3) In a sense, I'm not sure the Vikings stop that 3rd down conversion even if marked correctly as all players on the field would have been basing their play on the field markers. IOW the Raven's receiver made his reception at the first down marker (or at least what he thought it was). The defense was trying to stop him before he made the 'first down' based on the position of the same marker(s). The defense did not stop him before he crossed the marker that was on the field.

Consider it a 1 yard penalty against the (on First down - and then we replay first down) Vikings for not being aware enough that the marker was 9 yards from the LOS on 1st down, and you get the drift of how the series played out. If the referees actually made the correct call, Baltimore would have had a legitimate gripe about the non-conversion since they were presumably playing to the markers on the field.

What I still don't understand is how that could be wrong with the chains on the other side of the field. (I'm assuming the down markers with the actual chains attached were out of view of the camera)???
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Re: And the plot thickens

Post by losperros »

Texas Vike wrote:Wow. Nice work. Your whole post deserves to be read by NFL execs, in addition to a list of other blunders of this officiating crew. There were so many advantages given to Baltimore that you really do have to wonder WTH.

I completely agree. Also, like Moth said, the Vikings will probably get an apology from the NFL. Big wow. They still absorb a needless loss.
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Re: And the plot thickens

Post by soflavike »

majorm wrote:Wait. Is the chain only on one side of the field? I guess I forgot that since I've surely noticed it in all my years watching football. But even so, with the chain, this shouldn't be able to happen. You put one end of the chain where the ball is spotted on first down and the the marker at the other end of the chain, ten yards away. How is it possible for them to mess that up. The guy in your pics clearly set up at the wrong spot and nobody caught it.
Was the chain brought on the field to measure for the 1st down? If not, Frazier should have demanded it. Somebody on the Vikes sideline needs to keep track of this kind of junk.
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saint33
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Re: And the plot thickens

Post by saint33 »

soflavike wrote: Was the chain brought on the field to measure for the 1st down? If not, Frazier should have demanded it. Somebody on the Vikes sideline needs to keep track of this kind of junk.

It was not, which I'm sure would have thrown a definite wrench into the situation. I have no idea how the first down marker could be off by a full yard, so I have no clue how that would play out.


As for the marker on the other side of the field, there should be a marker on that side as well. I'd have to go back and look at what was shown, but I never looked myself to see how it was marked on that side of the field. Certainly would be interesting to see if both markers were a yard short, if just the one that happened to be in TV view and closer to the play at hand.
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Re: And the plot thickens

Post by Purple Reign »

saint33 wrote:
It was not, which I'm sure would have thrown a definite wrench into the situation. I have no idea how the first down marker could be off by a full yard, so I have no clue how that would play out.


As for the marker on the other side of the field, there should be a marker on that side as well. I'd have to go back and look at what was shown, but I never looked myself to see how it was marked on that side of the field. Certainly would be interesting to see if both markers were a yard short, if just the one that happened to be in TV view and closer to the play at hand.
Obviously the chain crew messed up. But I believe the official chains were on the other side of the field, where you have both ends of the chain on a pole showing 10 yards. The photos show just a single 1st down marker (not a chain with both markers) which is unofficial. So I think the official chains on the other side of the field must have originally marked it at the 18 yard line instead of the 17 and the guy on the other side with the 1st down marker just lined his up with the official chains on the other side. Too bad we don't have a shot from the other side of the field where the official chains were to know for sure what happened.
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Re: And the plot thickens

Post by beardedterror »

I can't #### believe this.
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CbusVikesFan
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Re: And the plot thickens

Post by CbusVikesFan »

I didn't get to see the game, sounds like a farce. I would be interested in knowing if there was a measurement. And was the other sticks used in this measurement?
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saint33
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Re: And the plot thickens

Post by saint33 »

I have gone back and re-watched the sequence to see if the sticks on the other side of the field are visible.

Unfortunately they are never clearly visible to the point where we could definitively get an idea of where the mistake was made.

However I do have this image. This is on 1st and 10, the guy holding the Line of scrimmage marker appears to be in the correct spot. The guy holding the first down marker is moving up until this frame, and is taken out of frame in the next shot, so I cannot tell if he continues to move down field or stays here. However, it does appear when watching it slower that he is stopping and setting up at the point that this picture is taken.

It's still a little hard to tell, and as I stated before I can only speculate whether he's actually stopping at this point, but he appears to be the one who's made the error, because where he is in this image is at the 8 yard line, which as we know is only 9 yards from the spot of the ball.


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Again don't think we can conclude anything definitive out of this
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saint33
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Re: And the plot thickens

Post by saint33 »

CbusVikesFan wrote:I didn't get to see the game, sounds like a farce. I would be interested in knowing if there was a measurement. And was the other sticks used in this measurement?

there was no measurement
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Re: And the plot thickens

Post by J. Kapp 11 »

Purple Reign wrote:Obviously the chain crew messed up. But I believe the official chains were on the other side of the field, where you have both ends of the chain on a pole showing 10 yards.
I don't think that's true.

During a measurement earlier in the game, the chains were brought from the far side of the field, respective to the camera.
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Re: And the plot thickens

Post by Purple Reign »

J. Kapp 11 wrote: I don't think that's true.

During a measurement earlier in the game, the chains were brought from the far side of the field, respective to the camera.
But if you look at the pictures in the sequence (especially the last one which is blown up a bit), I see the guy holding the first down marker and the guy that holds the current down marker, but I don't see the guy holding the marker that shows where the original 1st down spot is (there is no one holding any type of chain/marker at the 17/18 yard line), which makes me believe those aren't the official chains.
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