Secondary is a more immediate concern than quarterback

[Hunter Morrow]

1.
You can make a legitimate case that Josh Robinson is the worst secondary player in the league.
He gets targeted like a 30 point buck and has been torched by players from Ben Roethlisberger to...Brian Hoyer??!?
2.
Chris Cook has more criminal convictions than career interceptions and forced fumbles (0 in 21 total games started
over 55 potential starts)
3.
Giving up 330 yards a game to quarterbacks. 330!
4.
Can't pitch in to stop the run, either. Winfield where are thou?
115 yards of rushing a game, too.
5.
Abysmal on 3rd down, bottom 5 in the league in 3rd down stops.
6.
Permitting 74 offensive plays a game. 74!

How in the world isn't Rhodes starting?

[Texas Vike]

1.
You can make a legitimate case that Josh Robinson is the worst secondary player in the league.
He gets targeted like a 30 point buck and has been torched by players from Ben Roethlisberger to...Brian Hoyer??!?
2.
Chris Cook has more criminal convictions than career interceptions and forced fumbles (0 in 21 total games started
over 55 potential starts)
3.
Giving up 330 yards a game to quarterbacks. 330!
4.
Can't pitch in to stop the run, either. Winfield where are thou?
115 yards of rushing a game, too.
5.
Abysmal on 3rd down, bottom 5 in the league in 3rd down stops.
6.
Permitting 74 offensive plays a game. 74!

How in the world isn't Rhodes starting?

And a coach that PLAYED in the secondary. That's what I don't get.

[FailedtoOpen]

And a coach that PLAYED in the secondary. That's what I don't get.

You can't coach talent.

While yes they've given up a lot of yards they've actually also been getting takeaways (I believe they're either 2nd or 3rd in total takeaways this year).

The Vikings have always had a pretty atrocious passing defense but at least now they're making up for it with turnovers (7 ints on the year 3 less than their entire total last year).

The team as a whole reminds me of the 09 saints. Trash defense that get takeaways and an offense that score a lot of points (the vikings are 4th in the league in total points).

[Rus]

The d-line has been underperforming as well. When the line can't put pressure on quarterbacks consistently, your secondary is going to have its work cut out for it.

Even Brian Hoyer can put up numbers if he's got all the time in the world. If there's one attribute that separates the really good quarterbacks from the ho-hum quarterbacks, it's their release. If you can't pressure a standard NFL quarterback who's got an standard release, he'll probably find a way to get the ball into the right receiver's hands and bad quarterbacks will beat your defense too.

[thatguy]

As long as we play this soft cover 2 zone, we will ALWAYS give up passing yards no matter who our starting corners are, trust me. We could have Sherman and Revis as our starting CB and we'd still be giving up 300+ passing yards per game. Our soft zone defense has the CB playing at least 5 yards off and they are suppose to allow the QB to complete the short passes, then make the tackle. It's a lame assss mother effin scheme that needs to be tossed out.

With that said, I disagree times a billion that we need to draft in the secondary because they're just going to be placed in a stupid scheme anyways where their coverage skills are barely utilized. Take for example Xavier Rhodes. If Rhodes was in Seattle right now his bump and run skills would be utilized and he'd be a rising star.

I think you've seen the Cover-2's major weakness exposed by the lack of a consistent front 4. Aside from the game in London, the front 4 wasn't getting really any sort of pressure on opposing QBs. That's why players like Jared Allen, Everson Griffen, Brian Robison, Kevin Williams and Sharif Floyd are so important in this scheme. The zones are dependent on a strong rush from the front.

Just remember, no coverage scheme is inherently "better" or "worse" by nature. They are only more or less effective based on the effectiveness of the personnel.

[Funkytown]

Just remember, no coverage scheme is inherently "better" or "worse" by nature. They are only more or less effective based on the effectiveness of the personnel.

Very well put!

[Just Me]

2.
Chris Cook has more criminal convictions than career interceptions and forced fumbles (0 in 21 total games started
over 55 potential starts)

I think you mean arrests. Our Teflon cornerback has been charged twice, but found not guilty twice. (Unless there was a charge(s) before his tenure with the Vikings I'm not aware of).

It's still a great comparison/contrast statement, though.

[Texas Vike]

You can't coach talent.

Meaning what? Frazier can't substitute a competent player he has riding pine (Rhodes) for one of the worst defensive players in the league currently (Robinson)? He can't acquire the necessary talent, be it via the draft or FA, to execute his "Kick A$$ Defense"?

Poor Frazier! He's such a brilliant secondary coach, if only he had talent... but you know, you can't coach talent... and he has nothing to do with the acquisition of talent... so he is just straight up handcuffed by those incompetent buffoons who are responsible for getting talented players!

[Delaqure]

Very well put!

While that is true you also have to find your talent that fits the scheme you are playing. Cook and Rhodes are a prime example. They are built to be strong cover guys that press the receivers yet they play the soft zone. We need a defensive scheme that plays to the strengths of our personnel. Its obvious we don't do that. If we are going to play cover 2 we need strong coverage linebackers and a linemen that are strong pass rushers and we are lacking that as well. Our lame defense is lame because we don't have the right personnel to run it. We either need to change the scheme or change the personnel.

[Mothman]

While that is true you also have to find your talent that fits the scheme you are playing. Cook and Rhodes are a prime example. They are built to be strong cover guys that press the receivers yet they play the soft zone. We need a defensive scheme that plays to the strengths of our personnel. Its obvious we don't do that. If we are going to play cover 2 we need strong coverage linebackers and a linemen that are strong pass rushers and we are lacking that as well. Our lame defense is lame because we don't have the right personnel to run it. We either need to change the scheme or change the personnel.

My questions are: what scheme should they be running to be more successful with their current personnel? You're right to say the Vikes need a defensive scheme that plays to the strengths of their personnel but what are those strengths and what scheme would emphasize them?

Those questions aren't just for Delaqure. They're for anybody.

Regarding Cook and Rhodes: Cook has been out the last two weeks. Should they have been putting Sherels in press coverage the majority of the time? With everybody healthy, if they put Cook and Rhodes in press coverage and play man-to-man, how does that solve their issues defending slot receivers, backs, TEs, etc? Cook and Rhodes aren't the defenders giving up the majority of the passing yards in the first place.

This scheme is pretty effective when the players execute well and I'm not saying it's the best choice the Vikes could make because frankly, I'm not a big fan of it either and I don't know if it's their best choice. However, I see players failing to get to the QB, getting blocked out of their gaps on running plays, getting beat on receiving routes, etc. and those are problems in ANY scheme. What I don't see is a lot of personnel that seems likely to thrive in man-to-man coverage, especially at LB. Cook and Rhodes might do well in it but the pass defense doesn't begin and end with them.

If the Vikes blitz more to get to opposing passers, that could help but it could also expose the pass defense even more. It will certainly put more pressure on the LBs, in zone or man-to-man. The line can do more stunting, shifting, etc. and perhaps they should. That can expose holes in the defense too but it can also be more disruptive.

[thatguy]

My questions are: what scheme should they be running to be more successful with their current personnel? You're right to say the Vikes need a defensive scheme that plays to the strengths of their personnel but what are those strengths and what scheme would emphasize them?

Those questions aren't just for Delaqure. They're for anybody.

I don't think there is a scheme that is more effective than the cover-2 with the current personnel. We have a great front 4 that historically gets great pressure on QBs. While you guys are talking about how Chris Cook is asked to play press coverage, keep in mind that cover-2 corners are quite often asked to help against the run and that's where Cook's size comes in handy. Just look at Winfield - my all-time favorite player and one of the best ever at cornerback, and he was most notable for his run-stopping abilities. I think the Vikings have the best chance to win by sticking to the scheme they've obviously built around rather than trying to retool the scheme itself.

[vikeinmontana]

1.
You can make a legitimate case that Josh Robinson is the worst secondary player in the league.
He gets targeted like a 30 point buck and has been torched by players from Ben Roethlisberger to...Brian Hoyer??!?
2.
Chris Cook has more criminal convictions than career interceptions and forced fumbles (0 in 21 total games started
over 55 potential starts)
3.
Giving up 330 yards a game to quarterbacks. 330!
4.
Can't pitch in to stop the run, either. Winfield where are thou?
115 yards of rushing a game, too.
5.
Abysmal on 3rd down, bottom 5 in the league in 3rd down stops.
6.
Permitting 74 offensive plays a game. 74!

How in the world isn't Rhodes starting?

ponder apologist...

[FailedtoOpen]

Meaning what? Frazier can't substitute a competent player he has riding pine (Rhodes) for one of the worst defensive players in the league currently (Robinson)? He can't acquire the necessary talent, be it via the draft or FA, to execute his "Kick A$$ Defense"?

Poor Frazier! He's such a brilliant secondary coach, if only he had talent... but you know, you can't coach talent... and he has nothing to do with the acquisition of talent... so he is just straight up handcuffed by those incompetent buffoons who are responsible for getting talented players!

Just because he played as a cornerback in some point in his life (almost 30 years ago) doesn't mean this secondary is going to be amazing simply off that. You trivialize the role that playing the position (in an alternate era in a difference scheme) has on the play of their players.

Not even that he's the head coach not the cornerbacks/safeties coach and not the defensive coordinator.

[PurpleMustReign]

I just am so sick of seeing our DBs drop sure INTs. That is what bugs the hell out of me. Learn how to catch the damn ball.

[NextQuestion]

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