I'm taking a shot at Spielman

[mondry]

For the most part, I think the overall consensus is that he's done a good job so far, especially with the draft. However, there is one aspect I find really hard to ignore and it has a glaring effect on game day.

He simply didn't get the players we needed for Frazier and Musgrave to run their schemes. Musgave's plan was to run the 2 tight end offense ala New england, the problem is Carlson was a huge bust and it never really worked out. On the defensive side, we knew we desperately needed better LB's.

Where he went wrong imo was taking Rhodes and trading up for Patterson. Let's say Floyd was a can't miss BPA pick in his mind, fine. Taking Rhodes, even if he's the BPA doesn't work because his skill set didn't really match the scheme and now he's seemingly behind just about every other CB on the roster right now playing catch up. Trading up as much as we did for Patterson seems like a blunder so far as well as he's the 5th WR. (even Webb has been seeing more snaps than him!) Imagine instead with those 4 picks (the ones that matter) we draft the LB's we need, a corner more specialized in zone defense, and another pass catching TE.

Suddenly we can play Musgrave's 2 tight end offense and we have Jennings, Wright, and Simpson as the 3 WR's to rotate for those 2 spots. On defense we have the two LB's we really needed, a Corner that actually fits the system as well as Floyd to provide depth at DT and eventually replace K.will.

Instead what happens is we do nothing for LB but take some late round flyers on some guys and we spend a ton of picks drafting an unneeded WR when we only use 2 WRs or less on most plays.

Now if we look at the pre-53 man cuts you could have easily kept Stephen Burton and along with Joe Webb you have some decent depth without Patterson. The defense that will undoubtedly be mentioned here is that it's always been a 3 year rebuilding project. The other is that these moves could all pay off big time in the long run. I can't predict the future so I can't really say how good these moves are, but in the short term, he may just get everyone fired and his QB run out of town.

We'll see how it goes but I think you can say without a doubt that not addressing the LB issue and taking a corner that doesn't fit our system has really hurt the defense while spending so much on Patterson who's going to see limited playing time in an offense that mostly uses 2 WR's or less is a waste of precious resources because for the most part they haven't solved any of the teams biggest problems.

The icing on the cake, the cherry on top if you will, might just be the cutting and burning of bridges when it comes to Antoine Winfield. He may be old, his playing time may have been down, but boy do we sure miss him!

[NextQuestion]

I get the feeling if coaches were fired our GM would be too. I'd love to get Bill Polian off his chair at ESPN

[VikeMike]

There's only so many holes you can fill in one draft. I won't bother mentioning the moves made in the 2012 draft, but going into 2013, we had holes at corner, DL (since a majority of linemen were entering their last year under contract), WR, LB and G. Yes, linebacker wasn't addressed in the offseason, but other positions were. Come on, people, it wasn't like we thought going into this season the team was stacked and ready to make a SB run.

[TheFoxInDetox]

If Spielman wants to keep his job I think he is going to need to pull the plug on Ponder, and soon. Like today. If he and Leslie ride him out to a 4-12 type season I think they both hit the door along with Mr. Steele.

[dkoby]

I don't have a problem with you taking a shot at Spielman. but that is mostly a criticism directed at the direction of the team talent wise.
I think there's plenty of talent on the team, and certainly enough talent to beat a team like the Browns. what everybody is all worked up over is that this team is leaving too many opportunities on the field. the only thing that constant with Christian Ponder is his inconsistencies.
I hated Brad Childress but one thing he said was always true, the quarterback has to make routine plays, routinely. and we certainly don't that.
now, the $64,000 question is: is the play calling vanilla because of Christian Ponder?
to be honest I don't think we're any better off now then we were when we had Tarvaris Jackson with Darrell Bevell calling plays.
my only hope is that the WIlfs in conjunction with Spielman, have made a decision and will make a professional Move after this season and hire a completely new coaching staff. I wouldn't mind seeing Mike Zimmer get a shot at it.

[smoothoperator]

i think i counted 8 or something rollouts, essentially the same damn play, within 10 plays yesterday. this man has to go, he is inept at what he does and cannot call a game to save his life. watch just about any other team, and there are guys wide open all over the field almost every play resulting in easy completions. granted i dont think ponder is the guy and we need to figure out a different solutiong, it is hard to judge him accurately with someone as incapable of being an OC as musgrave, especially when it seemed ponder was the only one on the team yesterday who actually wanted a win. the DC has to go as welll as the tampa 2 scheme, every team just takes the easy yards we give them and then they go for the kill in the red zone.

there is plenty wrong with this team, but spielman has been excellent at drafting talent, the coaches just arent using them. i do not know why rhodes and patterson see such little playing time, but it seems like the coaches want to give guys a chance to succeed when they are worse than those behind them. this whole coaching staff needs to be looked at and addressed. sure, maybe he was wrong with ponder, but that is the hardest position to draft by far in the nfl.

[The Breeze]

My thoughts have turned to Spielman more than once recently.

I have to echo the sentiment that you can only do so much with one draft, but what concerns me more than anything is the glaring lack along the o-line. Every year they draft later round guards to no effect.

As for LB, they drafted Mauti and Hodges, added Bishop. I think they should be playing. How much worse cold it be...the defense gives up 36 points instead of 30?

In fact outside of the first round talent, there hasn't been much of an upgrade provided anywhere IMO.

Our DBs, outside of Smith are not very good.

The team just doesn't play smart....it's like they don't understand the scheme on either side of the ball. Part of that could be how ineffective the schemes actually are. But it looks to me like they have sold the farm on building a big happy family of nice guys and forgot to hire or draft any real football minds.

I think our TEs are over rated. Rudolph is huge and has great hands but lacks the speed to get behind anyone. He can help move the chains and is a great red zone target....but he is just too slow to be the big TE playmaker that every team we've faced has on their roster.

Mondry's point about Rhodes and the scheme are valid IMO. Either there is a total disconnect between front office and staff on player\scheme cohesion, or Spielman is already planning a future without Fraizer and his staff.

I don't even want to talk about Musgrave/Ponder~

[mondry]

I disagree on this. I think that two-TE scheme was a rumor for starters, and secondly, if that was Musgrave's plan, he never even attempted those sort of plays in the past two preseasons at any point. I think we all assumed they would try to be Gronk/Hernandez, but it never came to be. The Colts were supposed to do that, and it never happened. For some reason teams get all hot on the idea of copying New England, but then end up dropping it. I guess they don't want one of their TE's to end up being a serial killer or something

My thinking is we run a minimum of 2 TE's on like 70% of our plays as it stands and that's with Carlson being HALF the player they thought they were getting. I feel like they DO use that formation a LOT, but if they aren't using it like 90% of the time for example it probably has more to do with Carlson not performing at the level they thought he would rather than just realizing the scheme wasn't what they thought it would be. The pressure from the media, fans, and spielman also might have something to do with it since he paid so dearly for that Patterson guy who can't find the field since the majority of the time we only use TWO WR'S!

My thoughts have turned to Spielman more than once recently.

I have to echo the sentiment that you can only do so much with one draft, but what concerns me more than anything is the glaring lack along the o-line. Every year they draft later round guards to no effect.

As for LB, they drafted Mauti and Hodges, added Bishop. I think they should be playing. How much worse cold it be...the defense gives up 36 points instead of 30?

In fact outside of the first round talent, there hasn't been much of an upgrade provided anywhere IMO.

Our DBs, outside of Smith are not very good.

The team just doesn't play smart....it's like they don't understand the scheme on either side of the ball. Part of that could be how ineffective the schemes actually are. But it looks to me like they have sold the farm on building a big happy family of nice guys and forgot to hire or draft any real football minds.

I think our TEs are over rated. Rudolph is huge and has great hands but lacks the speed to get behind anyone. He can help move the chains and is a great red zone target....but he is just too slow to be the big TE playmaker that every team we've faced has on their roster.

Mondry's point about Rhodes and the scheme are valid IMO. Either there is a total disconnect between front office and staff on player\scheme cohesion, or Spielman is already planning a future without Fraizer and his staff.

I don't even want to talk about Musgrave/Ponder~

Well I'll agree you can only do so much with each draft, but you can do even LESS when you send half of it away to pick ONE guy who you don't need. I mean is it really worth it to spend so much on a guy who plays 5 snaps a game and maybe gets to return 1-2 kicks that aren't touch backs per game? We basically picked this guy so in 3 years when he figures it out and Jennings retires we have his replacement.

I didn't start this thread to say 99% of the problem is spielmans drafting, just that I think as far as the short term goes, its likely responsible for some of what we see on the field. With that said I think your points are very valid on what the rest of the problem is. We can't seem to develop anyone that didn't have an incredible amount of potential to begin with and we aren't starting the guys spielman did get for the LB corps, etc.

It's hard to say on the Tight Ends, I've personally thought Rudolph is a little over rated in that he's not Jimmy Graham but I also feel like he's the type of TE where more often than not you're just going to have to throw it to him and let him make the play (Think about his TD against the bears, how open was that, and how bad of a throw was it but Rudolph still got the TD?) Ironically, Ponder's big thing is that he doesn't trust himself or his teamates for the most part so I'm not surprised Rudolph is having a down year. How many times did Ponder talk to the media last year about how he just has to throw to rudolph and he's learning to trust him? Must have been like 10 times.

Since I do want to keep this about spielman, let's look at the 2013 draft and see how much these guys are actually helping us RIGHT NOW.

1. Shariff floyd - back up to Kevin Williams, minimal amount of playing time.
2. Xhavier Rhodes - very low on the CB depth chart due to not fitting the system, maybe a little raw as well.
3. Cordarelle Patterson - 4th string WR on a team that mostly runs 2 WR sets. Can effect the kicking game with his return ability but touch backs are a thing.
4. Hodges - Non Factor
5. Jeff Locke - probably our most useful draft pick so far, is a full time starter, has he really been better than kluwe though?
6. Jeff Baca - Non Factor
7. Michael Mauti - Non Factor - if his knees hold up he COULD be useful, we'll see.
2 more picks that aren't going to matter so skipping them.

I mean look at that, we had THREE first round picks and didn't manage to get an impact STARTER out of the entire draft!

As for your final point, I almost put it in the original post, perhaps it is spielmans plan all along and that plan doesn't have Musgrave or Frazier in it? If we got a coach who wanted to run a spread offense and make use of our 3-4 WR's and only needs one tight end, the scheme would make a lot more sense. If we had a defense that played more man coverage or more press coverage even the Rhodes pick suddenly makes a lot more sense. So unless we go with a childress style square peg round hole, look for some new coaches, and what better way to get them fired than to not draft the pieces they need for their schemes? Maybe Spielman is more clever than we thought?!

[The Breeze]

@Mondry:

It certainly appears the team is headed for the proverbial crossroad.

Who's really in charge of what? and how does that need changing?

Too bad it will probably take a whole season to resolve...but right now, for me, it's the most interesting storyline for the team. Someone higher up needs to step up and demand change and accountability......the mystery remains as to whether or not the organization has that person in place.
Wait and see......

[psjordan]

From http://www.nfl.com/news/story/0ap100000 ... ie-frazier

"On the surface, the Vikings' first-round aggressiveness in a draft seen as average (at best) by most clubs appears to be the picture of a club selling out for now. Yet, in the rooms of this suburban facility, the Floyd/Rhodes/Patterson haul is viewed differently: As merely another example -- albeit maybe the brightest-shining one -- of the vision the coach and GM, both holdovers from the Brad Childress era, have been executing over the past few years.

The Vikings' roster now features seven top-45 picks, six of them first-rounders and all of them 25 or younger, from the past three drafts. There are big-money players on the team, but save for defensive end Jared Allen, all of them were drafted and developed in Minnesota -- a group that includes running back Adrian Peterson, linebacker Chad Greenway and defensive tackle Kevin Williams. Sixteen draftees from 2011 and '12 make up the guts of the club."

The above is a good "hindsight" read and if nothing else may give you just one more bit of patience on the 2013 draftees, and also give a sense for how young this team really is.

But what if, just what if, the opinion of "most clubs" was accurate and the talent in the 2013 draft was at best average?

[The Breeze]

From http://www.nfl.com/news/story/0ap100000 ... ie-frazier

"On the surface, the Vikings' first-round aggressiveness in a draft seen as average (at best) by most clubs appears to be the picture of a club selling out for now. Yet, in the rooms of this suburban facility, the Floyd/Rhodes/Patterson haul is viewed differently: As merely another example -- albeit maybe the brightest-shining one -- of the vision the coach and GM, both holdovers from the Brad Childress era, have been executing over the past few years.

The Vikings' roster now features seven top-45 picks, six of them first-rounders and all of them 25 or younger, from the past three drafts. There are big-money players on the team, but save for defensive end Jared Allen, all of them were drafted and developed in Minnesota -- a group that includes running back Adrian Peterson, linebacker Chad Greenway and defensive tackle Kevin Williams. Sixteen draftees from 2011 and '12 make up the guts of the club."

The above is a good "hindsight" read and if nothing else may give you just one more bit of patience on the 2013 draftees, and also give a sense for how young this team really is.

But what if, just what if, the opinion of "most clubs" was accurate and the talent in the 2013 draft was at best average?

This is the crux IMO.

They way that Spielman is stocking the team screams patience and development.

The question I have who's in charge of how much time they have? If they believe in the coaching staff, why wasn't Fraizer extended?
How can you fire Spielman 2 years into what looks to be a 5 year developmental plan?

Who's in charge?

[mondry]

Yeah. At this point what I want to see from the team and spielman are

1. New Head Coach and with him will most likely come with new Coordinators and position coaches.

2. A new franchise QB prospect. Sticking with Ponder to me will be a sign of incompetence.

3. Dedicating to those coaches schemes and systems for both the short and the long term, getting the players they need to pull it off. That almost has to be top priority imo and yes even slightly over best player available. Getting the best player that doesn't fit your system and hoping you can mold him might not work that often.

From there we can continue the rebuild and drop our expectations again. With the right coaches in place and the 2014 free agency / draft we might be able to sneak back to being more like that 10-6 team with our russell wilson than the 0-3 team with Ponder.

At minimum we need to do 2 and 3 for sure.

[S197]

This is the main problem when you're only given quasi-GM status. You go into the draft and free agency with one philosophy in mind while your coaches may have a different mindset (and you do not have ultimate say on whether they stay or not). The better way to do it is to have one manager so that he and the coach are on the same wavelength, making personnel decisions more cohesive.

However, some of what has been said is hindsight driven and I don't think rookies should be judged on what they have done after the first 3 games of their career. I think we got a little spoiled with guys like AD and Harvin coming out strong right away when the more natural progression is for a rookie to develop over time. We knew going into the draft that there were too many holes to fill in a single year, I think Spielman did an adequate job of filling as many as he could.

Where I'm most critical of Spielman is at the quarterback position and it has nothing to do with Christian Ponder. The issue I have starts back when we took on a 40-year old Brett Favre as our starter. It was at that point that we should have started developing his successor, not wait until he was out of the picture. The contingency planning was poor at best, non-existent at worse, and Spielman being director of personnel at the time should front a lot of the blame.

[Eli]

I think we got a little spoiled with guys like AD and Harvin coming out strong right away

And Matt Kalil, and Harrison Smith, and Blair Walsh.

If Spielman hit one out of the ballpark with last year's draft, then so far this year's draft class is dribbler down the first base line.

[mondry]

This is the main problem when you're only given quasi-GM status. You go into the draft and free agency with one philosophy in mind while your coaches may have a different mindset (and you do not have ultimate say on whether they stay or not). The better way to do it is to have one manager so that he and the coach are on the same wavelength, making personnel decisions more cohesive.

However, some of what has been said is hindsight driven and I don't think rookies should be judged on what they have done after the first 3 games of their career. I think we got a little spoiled with guys like AD and Harvin coming out strong right away when the more natural progression is for a rookie to develop over time. We knew going into the draft that there were too many holes to fill in a single year, I think Spielman did an adequate job of filling as many as he could.

Where I'm most critical of Spielman is at the quarterback position and it has nothing to do with Christian Ponder. The issue I have starts back when we took on a 40-year old Brett Favre as our starter. It was at that point that we should have started developing his successor, not wait until he was out of the picture. The contingency planning was poor at best, non-existent at worse, and Spielman being director of personnel at the time should front a lot of the blame.

I'm hoping since I think Spielman was made quasi GM after Frazier was made head coach and brought all his guys in, that the next time Spielman would be allowed to do it his way.

It is for sure some what based on hindsight but the immediate questions right away about Rhodes were "hmm, isn't he more of a man to man / press corner than a soft cover 2 shell corner?" And it's not just AD and Harvin. Kalil was an immediate upgrade at a position of need. Harrison Smith was the best cover 2 safety available and big surprise he's an immediate upgrade and starter. We needed a pass catching TE for Musgrave's offense so what do you know, Kyle Rudolph immediate starter.

Who knows I guess, if the draft was as weak as they say, perhaps the best we could do is find guys with raw ability to try and develop down the road. Other teams seemed to still manage to find impact starters though.

I agree with you about spielman and the QB position, but I still really have to wonder about who was actually in control back then. Even very recently we saw Mcnabb get brought in and that to me was a Frazier move that I'm sure spielman probably wasn't fully into. In fact this is the first draft spielman probably had THE MOST say over and imo it's his worst draft yet by far.