Bears/Vikings Coaches Tape

[PacificNorseWest]

Good take Breeze.

I agree completely that you can't have a quarterback learning or improving if the offense continues to be limited. Third year quarterbacks especially, should have already been introduced to check-with-me's (calling plays at line) and audibles. This usually starts to be implemented in the second year and most see regression, but it's in fact the opposite. The player is progressing to a more all-encompassing quarterback. It's natural that with more cabilities or more on your plate, that you struggle as you learn the nuances of doing what it takes to be great. It happened with Matt Ryan and it happened with Andrew Luck (a lot last year, but it's Andrew Luck). All successful QB's in the NFL today have gone through it one way or another. If you continue to constrict and limit then you get a guy who won't know how to win at the level we need these guys to.

[mondry]

LOL! Our safeties are playing like theirs 2 seconds left on the clock, not 2 minutes... They're damn near 30 yards deep! And whats worse is Henderson alone seems to be playing zone, passing Bennet off to no one and Greenway's playing Man to double cover Marshal. This is so depressing, our coaches completely failed us on both sides of the ball in the last 3 minutes. Musgraving a run on 3rd down and Alan Williams / Frazier playing like we got a 30 point lead and the childress like "let's try this funny new look we've practiced like one time." Of course for chili that lead to a 12 men in the huddle penalty, here it leads to 2 major break downs in the defense on back to back "game on the line" plays.

I'm probably more mad now than I was right after we lost. This is much worse confirmation than what I THOUGHT had happened.

I can't stand that type of defense, the "we'll take away a 50 yard touch down pass but you can have literally anything else you want" mentality with a 6 point lead and plenty of time on the clock AND on the road! It's just the absolute worst, because what happened is the BEARS WERE RUNNING DOWN THE CLOCK ON US. They had roughly a 90%+ chance (in my book) to be in scoring position before time was even a factor against our defensive strategy. It's no wonder there are sound bytes of Cutler saying "it's the Vikings, we got this" and "They're not going to like what they see on film."

I'll never understand why teams think it's okay to play this kind of defensive strategy. Let's say you play your normal D which is designed not to give up 50 yard bombs anyway! Worst case scenario, you give up a 50 yard bomb but hey, now you got the ball back with 2 minutes and all your time outs so YOU can go get the game winning drive. Best case scenario you just stop them like normal and middle case scenario they burn up more of a the clock not picking up huge chunks of free yardage.

I can't believe I'm saying this but that was as bad as childress...

[The Breeze]

Good take Breeze.

I agree completely that you can't have a quarterback learning or improving if the offense continues to be limited. Third year quarterbacks especially, should have already been introduced to check-with-me's (calling plays at line) and audibles. This usually starts to be implemented in the second year and most see regression, but it's in fact the opposite. The player is progressing to a more all-encompassing quarterback. It's natural that with more cabilities or more on your plate, that you struggle as you learn the nuances of doing what it takes to be great. It happened with Matt Ryan and it happened with Andrew Luck (a lot last year, but it's Andrew Luck). All successful QB's in the NFL today have gone through it one way or another. If you continue to constrict and limit then you get a guy who won't know how to win at the level we need these guys to.

For what it's worth, I think the worm is starting to turn on the issue. The 2nd half, although not mistake free, was more like what we want to see.

I think the onfield relationship with Jennings is key. The more those two can hook up th better all the way around.

The coaching staff is running out of wiggle room too. Their hand is going to be forced more and more to trust the QB and reliquish some creative control....IMO.

[mondry]

LOL! Our safeties are playing like theirs 2 seconds left on the clock, not 2 minutes... They're damn near 30 yards deep! And whats worse is Henderson alone seems to be playing zone, passing Bennet off to no one and Greenway's playing Man to double cover Marshal. This is so depressing, our coaches completely failed us on both sides of the ball in the last 3 minutes. Musgraving a run on 3rd down and Alan Williams / Frazier playing like we got a 30 point lead and the childress like "let's try this funny new look we've practiced like one time." Of course for chili that lead to a 12 men in the huddle penalty, here it leads to 2 major break downs in the defense on back to back "game on the line" plays.

I'm probably more mad now than I was right after we lost. This is much worse confirmation than what I THOUGHT had happened.

I can't stand that type of defense, the "we'll take away a 50 yard touch down pass but you can have literally anything else you want" mentality with a 6 point lead and plenty of time on the clock AND on the road! It's just the absolute worst, because what happened is the BEARS WERE RUNNING DOWN THE CLOCK ON US. They had roughly a 90%+ chance (in my book) to be in scoring position before time was even a factor against our defensive strategy. It's no wonder there are sound bytes of Cutler saying "it's the Vikings, we got this" and "They're not going to like what they see on film."

I'll never understand why teams think it's okay to play this kind of defensive strategy. Let's say you play your normal D which is designed not to give up 50 yard bombs anyway! Worst case scenario, you give up a 50 yard bomb but hey, now you got the ball back with 2 minutes and all your time outs so YOU can go get the game winning drive. Best case scenario you just stop them like normal and middle case scenario they burn up more of a the clock not picking up huge chunks of free yardage.

I can't believe I'm saying this but that was as bad as childress...

[PacificNorseWest]

For sure.

[The Breeze]

LOL! Our safeties are playing like theirs 2 seconds left on the clock, not 2 minutes... They're damn near 30 yards deep! And whats worse is Henderson alone seems to be playing zone, passing Bennet off to no one and Greenway's playing Man to double cover Marshal. This is so depressing, our coaches completely failed us on both sides of the ball in the last 3 minutes. Musgraving a run on 3rd down and Alan Williams / Frazier playing like we got a 30 point lead and the childress like "let's try this funny new look we've practiced like one time." Of course for chili that lead to a 12 men in the huddle penalty, here it leads to 2 major break downs in the defense on back to back "game on the line" plays.

I'm probably more mad now than I was right after we lost. This is much worse confirmation than what I THOUGHT had happened.

I can't stand that type of defense, the "we'll take away a 50 yard touch down pass but you can have literally anything else you want" mentality with a 6 point lead and plenty of time on the clock AND on the road! It's just the absolute worst, because what happened is the BEARS WERE RUNNING DOWN THE CLOCK ON US. They had roughly a 90%+ chance (in my book) to be in scoring position before time was even a factor against our defensive strategy. It's no wonder there are sound bytes of Cutler saying "it's the Vikings, we got this" and "They're not going to like what they see on film."

I'll never understand why teams think it's okay to play this kind of defensive strategy. Let's say you play your normal D which is designed not to give up 50 yard bombs anyway! Worst case scenario, you give up a 50 yard bomb but hey, now you got the ball back with 2 minutes and all your time outs so YOU can go get the game winning drive. Best case scenario you just stop them like normal and middle case scenario they burn up more of a the clock not picking up huge chunks of free yardage.

I can't believe I'm saying this but that was as bad as childress...

lol I feel your pain. I seriously didn't have a big problem with them kicking the field goal. I disagreed then and now with the third down call....but i felt that the way the defense had been going the 6 pt lead was enough.

And then they change the whole approach on the most critical drive of the game. I'm glad guys were pissed in the lockerrom.

We need some onfield leaders to step up and call out some of this submissive strategy.

[mansquatch]

Mondry this is just a thought, but I think the philosophy is that inside the Redzone they can call a more normal defense since there is as much filed for the offense to work with. This is viable when the opponent needs a TD and not just a field goal. Such a stragetgy would imply a great deal of confidence in their defense. Given the results on the field, why would they have this?

I hate Prevent Defense.

[mondry]

Mondry this is just a thought, but I think the philosophy is that inside the Redzone they can call a more normal defense since there is as much filed for the offense to work with. This is viable when the opponent needs a TD and not just a field goal. Such a stragetgy would imply a great deal of confidence in their defense. Given the results on the field, why would they have this?

I hate Prevent Defense.

I agree with you overall, but again that's how our base cover 2 defense already works, it's already a conservative "don't give up the big play" and "bend but don't break" defense that buckles down in the red zone. There is no need to play the safeties 30 yards back, compared to our typically 15-20 heh.

We basically played for an end game position that looked like this "We will try to stop you, but if you get in, it's over." Most teams are going to be happy to accept that challenge, at home, with their offense on the field.

That's the difference. We had that end game positioning as well. If we pass on 3rd down here and get the TD, games over. Instead we say "you know what, we actually don't have the guts to try and win the game here, on the road, why don't you see if you can, at home, and we'll try to stop you."

I know you didn't bring any of that up, I'm just raging hard still. Add in that Patterson see's 5 snaps a game and the head coach says week after week he should be on the field more and I"m just stumped! How can their be such a disconnect between both head coach and offensive / defensive coordinators!? bleh.

[S197]

Thanks to Jim and 808vikingsfan for the screenshots. As they say, a picture is worth a thousand words.

I can't believe I'm saying this but that was as bad as childress...

If football is a team sport then the same can be said about coaching. Childress' ineptitude has to be shared to some degree with the rest of his coaching staff. It isn't a far stretch to think that by Childress hiring Frazier, the two share similar philosophies. This is why I was very worried when the Wilf's handed the keys over to Frazier with no interview process. They panicked to hire Childress and then panicked once again with Frazier. As I mentioned in the WTF thread, Frazier has also done a lot of positives but Childress also took this team to the NFCC game so a good season doesn't always equate to long lasting competence. It's still too early in the season to know for sure but right now all I see is the same complaints and the same mistakes that we had with BC. At least Frazier didn't get an extension, there's some consolation there IF the season continues on this trajectory.

[mondry]

Thanks to Jim and 808vikingsfan for the screenshots. As they say, a picture is worth a thousand words.
If football is a team sport then the same can be said about coaching. Childress' ineptitude has to be shared to some degree with the rest of his coaching staff. It isn't a far stretch to think that by Childress hiring Frazier, the two share similar philosophies. This is why I was very worried when the Wilf's handed the keys over to Frazier with no interview process. They panicked to hire Childress and then panicked once again with Frazier. As I mentioned in the WTF thread, Frazier has also done a lot of positives but Childress also took this team to the NFCC game so a good season doesn't always equate to long lasting competence. It's still too early in the season to know for sure but right now all I see is the same complaints and the same mistakes that we had with BC. At least Frazier didn't get an extension, there's some consolation there IF the season continues on this trajectory.

Well said, I guess the biggest difference that I see is Frazier has in a way "manned up" and took responsibility for what happened. I also believe he is more willing to adapt and adjust than Childress. For me, Childress was so set in his ways that there wasn't room for change. I also think the good that childress did is a bit different than the good Frazier has done. In that sense I don't think Frazier is just along for the ride of a well assembled roster that lucked out into brett favre.

As for the bears loss, that was unacceptable to me. However, if it never happens again I'm okay with that. The rest of the season will tell a lot. Some of the defensive players seemed genuinely as upset as I am and I'm sure Ponder feels it a little bit with his "not allowed to audible" comment on that final 3rd down. Anyway, these guys are after all just human beings so they aren't perfect, but we'll see if they learn anything from this or not.

[S197]

Well said, I guess the biggest difference that I see is Frazier has in a way "manned up" and took responsibility for what happened. I also believe he is more willing to adapt and adjust than Childress. For me, Childress was so set in his ways that there wasn't room for change. I also think the good that childress did is a bit different than the good Frazier has done. In that sense I don't think Frazier is just along for the ride of a well assembled roster that lucked out into brett favre.

As for the bears loss, that was unacceptable to me. However, if it never happens again I'm okay with that. The rest of the season will tell a lot. Some of the defensive players seemed genuinely as upset as I am and I'm sure Ponder feels it a little bit with his "not allowed to audible" comment on that final 3rd down. Anyway, these guys are after all just human beings so they aren't perfect, but we'll see if they learn anything from this or not.

I agree although Childress at times was incomprehensible in interviews, I never was able to translate "Chili-speak" to English so I'm not positive if he manned up or not. I think credit should be given where it's due, saying Childress lucked out with Favre is about as fair as saying Frazier lucked out with AD having an MVP season. They have shades of truth but ultimately dismiss the contributions of the staff. For me, it's not Frazier's openness or transparency, he's always been a "players coach" from the very beginning. He takes accountability very well, and I like that, but I'd like to see more than that. Stop apologizing about the same mistakes (like Patterson) and fix it. Maybe he will, we'll see.

[The Breeze]

Learning from the mistakes seems to be the larger underlying theme. Admitting that mistakes have been made is the first logical step.

One thing I try to remember is that both OCs and Fraizer are all in their first tenures at these positions. They are going to make the same kind of mistakes as Ponder for example.

I know Fraizer HCed a small college or high school somewhere....but as far as I know this is the first time Musgrave or Williams have ever called the plays...ever.

Musgrave only had 69 career pass attempts as a player....I doubt he has ever had other than this chance to actually run an offense. Technically Ponder has more experience than him in that specific category. Not that it means Musgrave can't or won't do it..it's just something to consider as they try to grow and learn.

Plus there is the issue of feeling like the sand is passing quickly through the hourglass.

[dead_poet]

...but as far as I know this is the first time Musgrave or Williams have ever called the plays...ever.

Musgrave has previous play-calling experience. At Philly as Eagles QBs coach he called plays, same in Carolina. He was OC for the University of Virginia before his OC position at Jacksonville.

[The Breeze]

Musgrave has previous play-calling experience. At Philly as Eagles QBs coach he called plays, same in Carolina. He was OC for the University of Virginia before his OC position at Jacksonville.

Thanks DP. I had forgotten all about his stint in J'Ville.

It makes my head hurt thinking about this coaching staff. I suppose that's a nearly universal sentiment for football fans across the board.

[mansquatch]

My take on the play calling is that it is an evolving process.

This group of coaches didn’t do as horrible last season as they’ve done the past two games. In some corners Musgrave was even lauded for some of his creativity. This year there is basically an entirely new group of WR whether the players are new or they are healthy. So new faces, new abilities, all make for a different and most likely better set of options. On top this there is, IMO, likely some confidence issues both with and at the QB positions. To me this all adds up to their still “working the bugs out” of the system. At least on offense.

On defense, I think the issue is more with the players than the calling at this point. (last play on Sunday an obvious exception…)

The most disappointing part of this for me is the fact we are working through this crap in the regular season. Under the presumption that things will get better over the next few weeks the issue to rip is the fact we were in this mess at all. Some of the new CBA imposed practice rules may have had something to do with it as well as the prevailing attitude about pre-season play. Who knows? Just sucks that we had to toss two games in order to figure the crap out.

Let’s just hope this Sunday is the tune up game it appears to be. The Vikings could use it.