Vikings @ 49ers Game Day Discussion Thread -- Preseason #3

[mosscarter]

the reason ponder had 4 td passes over 20 yards his rookie season was because harvin ran at least 2 of them (3 i think) into the end zone for the majority of the yards. its not like they were 40 or 50 yard throws; the only one i can remember that was actually a long throw was against atlanta.

[Mothman]

So it's even better than 74% on check downs, it's 100% on intermediate passes LOL

Do you mean there are passes other than checkdowns and deep throws? I didn't realize there was a third option! Since we know Ponder has "a well-established aversion to deep passes" I thought checkdowns were all that remained.

the reason ponder had 4 td passes over 20 yards his rookie season was because harvin ran at least 2 of them (3 i think) into the end zone for the majority of the yards. its not like they were 40 or 50 yard throws; the only one i can remember that was actually a long throw was against atlanta.

Which just reinforces the point I made earlier: that stat about TD passes of over 20 yards has as much to do with the receivers as with the quarterback.

[Arma]

If people are freaking out about Ponder now I can't wait till the season actually starts (hint: sarcasm). Jeeze.

[Raptorman]

Well this will annoy some, Ponder is 12-14 in his 26 starts. Rodgers was 12-14 in his first 26 starts.

Not saying he will be the next Rodgers.........

[The Breeze]

Who the WR's he was throwing to doesn't matter to most people. Let's see were two of those guys are from last year. Jenkins.......Signed with Pats............cut......even Brady couldn't make him look good. Aromashodu.......went back to the Bears........and got cut.......so Cutler couldn't make him look good. So two of the WR's that he was throwing to last year, aren't even on a team this year. But that doesn't matter to most people. If you want to compare Ponder to other QB's, fine, but compare him to QB's that came into the league when he did. And what you will find is that he is in line with those QB's. None of whom have broken into the HOF franchise type QB that everyone seems to covet. Personally I would rather have a QB like Eli Manning over Payton Manning. Take a good look at the QB who have won the Super Bowl the last 10 years. Eli 2, Ben 2 Flacco 1, Brady 2, Rodger 1, Payton 1, Brees 1. What I see is half have been won by Superstar QB's, the other half by good QB's. Ponder doesn't have to be in the Brady/Rodgers group, he only need to be in the Eli/Ben group. And he is not that far away. Let's see if he gets there before we crucify him.

I liked this post and would like to expand on a few points:

The comparison between Cutler and Ponder's stats is interesting, but I'm curious as to what Cutler's stats were for his first full season and how they compare to Ponder last year.

Also, the QBs on that list that have won 2 superbowls and Flacco have 1 huge thing in common....Defense. The Giants, in particular, struggled just make the playoffs then their defense destroyed everyone as Manning lit it up. The fact that their superbowl victories came over Patriots teams built primarily on offense is telling. I would never argue that Eli is better than Brady....but his teams were.

The superbowls that Rodgers, Brees and Payton won also occured when their teams had the best defenses of their careers thus far. They set all kinds of regular season records but beause they are marginal, at best, on defense and completely inept at running the ball, they get smacked by better balanced teams in the playoffs.

I like Eli, but no way do I think he is a better QB than Rodgers, Brees or Payton. He's had better teams and Coughlin is a better coach. Coughlin is great IMO.

That being said Eli, Flacco, Ben prove that you don't need to be a elte QB to win it all....but you do need to be able to step up and deliver in the clutch. But none of it matters if you don't have the right team around the guy....and Adrian Peterson is not the definition of team. He is like aPayton Manning at running back. It took Payton 6 seaons to win a playoff game.

[Raptorman]

That's the whole point. It's a team effort, I don't care how good you QB is, if you don't have the team around you, you are not going to win. And there is proof you don't need a top of line franchise QB to do it. You need a good QB who can make the plays when he needs to. Eli, Ben, Flacco, none of these guys would be called elite, if you go back even farther, Dilfer, Johnson........Good teams, good defense. Can anyone name a WR on the Tampa team when they won the Super Bowl? Yeah, me neither. Team effort. And a little bit of luck.

[Mothman]

I liked this post and would like to expand on a few points:

The comparison between Cutler and Ponder's stats is interesting, but I'm curious as to what Cutler's stats were for his first full season and how they compare to Ponder last year.

Here you go:

Cutler: 297-467 (63.6%) for 3497 yards, 20 TDs, 14 INTs, 27 sacks, 88.1 passer rating, 7-9 record, 44 rushing attempts for 205 yards and 1 TD)
http://www.pro-football-reference.com/p ... tlJa00.htm

Ponder: 300-483 (62.1%) for 2935 yards, 18 TDs, 12 INTs, 32 sacks, 81.2 passer rating; 10-6 record, 60 rushing attempts for 253 yards and 2 TDs
http://www.pro-football-reference.com/p ... ndCh00.htm

There are more stats at the links.

[Mothman]

That's the whole point. It's a team effort, I don't care how good you QB is, if you don't have the team around you, you are not going to win. And there is proof you don't need a top of line franchise QB to do it. You need a good QB who can make the plays when he needs to. Eli, Ben, Flacco, none of these guys would be called elite, if you go back even farther, Dilfer, Johnson........Good teams, good defense. Can anyone name a WR on the Tampa team when they won the Super Bowl?

Sure! Keyshawn Johnson. Come on, how could you forget Keyshawn?

[PurpleKoolaid]

Cutler has AD in the backfield?

AD should make a below average QB, look at least average. Even with average WRs. That's what the Vikes have for sure this year, and had for a few years. A good QB would tear up Ds with AD back there, esp. if he was coming into his 3rd year. Even with a bad line, like Rogers has. Ponder is a mental midget when it comes to his NFL sense and its time for him to snap out of whatever trance he is in. Or hit the road.

[Purple bruise]

Cutler has AD in the backfield?

AD should make a below average QB, look at least average. Even with average WRs. That's what the Vikes have for sure this year, and had for a few years. A good QB would tear up Ds with AD back there, esp. if he was coming into his 3rd year. Even with a bad line, like Rogers has. Ponder is a mental midget when it comes to his NFL sense and its time for him to snap out of whatever trance he is in. Or hit the road.

How many QBs did Walter Payton or Barry Sanders make look good? Answer is ZERO.
Really, every thread you and your ilk post is about Ponder and how you hate him, how bad he is BLAH BLAH BLAH we all really do get it

[PurpleKoolaid]

How many QBs did Walter Payton or Barry Sanders make look good? Answer is ZERO.
Really, every thread you and your ilk post is about Ponder and how you hate him, how bad he is BLAH BLAH BLAH we all really do get it

Ive told you twice to block, or ignore my posts.
And who care about Sanders or Payton, they have nothing to do with the discussion.

[Purple bruise]

Ive told you twice to block, or ignore my posts.
And who care about Sanders or Payton, they have nothing to do with the discussion.

Yeah bright boy you are saying that good running backs make QBs look better I listed two of the best that did not make any of their QBs look any better. About ignoring your 100s of posts, you know how the system works whenever anyone quotes you there is your constant rant hard to miss and I do try and take it for what it is worth

[Mothman]

AD should make a below average QB, look at least average. Even with average WRs. That's what the Vikes have for sure this year, and had for a few years. A good QB would tear up Ds with AD back there, esp. if he was coming into his 3rd year.

Well, since he hasn't actually played his third year, maybe you should wait and see if he does tear up some defenses this year.

This whole idea that AD's presence somehow means a QB should automatically destroy defenses is a serious oversimplification. The presence of a great back can definitely take pressure off a QB but he still needs good receivers, good blocking, etc. Defenses don't just stop covering receivers because Adrian Peterson is on the field. The QB gets more favorable looks but his teammates still have to get open and make plays.

The blocking was crap in 2011 and erratic last season. The receivers... well, there was Harvin and a bunch of very marginal receivers in 2011. Last year was basically the same story. Wright played pretty well but he didn't play until Harvin went down. Heck, Ponder didn't even have the benefit of playing with Harvin and AD both at 100% very often the past two seasons, although he did at times.

So, to return to the point: who was Ponder supposed to tear defenses up with in 2011 and 2012? Harvin? Well, that basically happened. Percy was extremely productive during the time he played with Ponder. Rudolph? He's done pretty well with Ponder throwing the ball to him as well. Wright didn't do badly either. Do you see the rather obvious pattern forming? Talent makes a difference. Who is going to tear defenses up with Michael Jenkins, Devin Aromashodu, a hobbled Jerome Simpson and Stephen Burton ? You can talk about Aaron Rodgers being great with a shaky o-line all you want but he was throwing to a much, much better group of targets than that!

I'm not saying Ponder is just a victim of the average or subpar talent around him but it's pretty clear that when he's given better targets to throw to and adequate time to do so, he does pretty well. He's not Aaron Rodgers and he doesn't really have that kind of talent so I wouldn't expect him to ever be that good but if he had been throwing to Jordy Nelson, Greg Jennings, James Jones and Randall Cobb last year, I don't think it's a stretch to suggest his stat line would have looked better.

Not that I expect a word of that to change your views on Ponder even slightly...

[PurpleKoolaid]

Well, since he hasn't actually played his third year, maybe you should wait and see if he does tear up some defenses this year.

This whole idea that AD's presence somehow means a QB should automatically destroy defenses is a serious oversimplification. The presence of a great back can definitely take pressure off a QB but he still needs good receivers, good blocking, etc. Defenses don't just stop covering receivers because Adrian Peterson is on the field. The QB gets more favorable looks but his teammates still have to get open and make plays.

The blocking was crap in 2011 and erratic last season. The receivers... well, there was Harvin and a bunch of very marginal receivers in 2011. Last year was basically the same story. Wright played pretty well but he didn't play until Harvin went down. Heck, Ponder didn't even have the benefit of playing with Harvin and AD both at 100% very often the past two seasons, although he did at times.

So, to return to the point: who was Ponder supposed to tear defenses up with in 2011 and 2012? Harvin? Well, that basically happened. Percy was extremely productive during the time he played with Ponder. Rudolph? He's done pretty well with Ponder throwing the ball to him as well. Wright didn't do badly either. Do you see the rather obvious pattern forming? Talent makes a difference. Who is going to tear defenses up with Michael Jenkins, Devin Aromashodu, a hobbled Jerome Simpson and Stephen Burton ? You can talk about Aaron Rodgers being great with a shaky o-line all you want but he was throwing to a much, much better group of targets than that!

I'm not saying Ponder is just a victim of the average or subpar talent around him but it's pretty clear that when he's given better targets to throw to and adequate time to do so, he does pretty well. He's not Aaron Rodgers and he doesn't really have that kind of talent so I wouldn't expect him to ever be that good but if he had been throwing to Jordy Nelson, Greg Jennings, James Jones and Randall Cobb last year, I don't think it's a stretch to suggest his stat line would have looked better.

Not that I expect a word of that to change your views on Ponder even slightly...

I stated coming into his 3rd year.

You are right, my view of Ponder hasn't changed. It wont until I see some consistency.

Ok so having 8-9 in the box every week shouldn't help a QB or the Vikings passing game? Why has every commentator on earth said it should? Even MN ones. I could explain the logic of it to you, but Im betting you know it better then I do.

And as far as the Oline, look at Rogers over the past few years. He does better under pressure, he doesn't melt. He consistently put ups good members.

As for your other excuses, I believe you forgot he missed his first years OTA's.

One of these days I will figure out how to block in the quotes. I somehow have got ad's to pop up and the text of words in others post to become highlights in trying to do so.

[Mothman]

Ok so having 8-9 in the box every week shouldn't help a QB or the Vikings passing game?

I wrote, "The presence of a great back can definitely take pressure off a QB" so yes, having Peterson in the backfield and drawing an extra man into the box should help the Vikings passing game. It has helped the passing game. However, Peterson's presence alone doesn't mean a QB should "tear it up". It simply helps. Take a look at Favre's numbers in his last season with the Vikes. Did he tear it up with Peterson in the backfield? He was on track to finish the season with numbers considerably worse than Ponder's 2012 stats.Just having Peterson back there isn't enough.

Why has every commentator on earth said it should? Even MN ones. I could explain the logic of it to you, but Im betting you know it better then I do.

Yes, I understand it.

And as far as the Oline, look at Rogers over the past few years. He does better under pressure, he doesn't melt. He consistently put ups good members.

I think you meant numbers.

I already commented on this. Rodgers puts up better numbers for two reasons: 1.) He's better. He's more talented, he's more experienced, he's simply better. 2.) He's had a much better group of receivers and he's had years to work with them and develop a rapport.

As for your other excuses, I believe you forgot he missed his first years OTA's.

One of these days I will figure out how to block in the quotes. I somehow have got ad's to pop up and the text of words in others post to become highlights in trying to do so.

How the heck did you manage that?

Just select the sentence or sentences you want to quote and then hit the quote button. That's all it takes.