Vikings @ 49ers Game Day Discussion Thread -- Preseason #3

[Raptorman]

LOL! For an incompetent QB, he's been awfully good in the red zone over his short career. Here's an interesting take on red zone performance by QBs in 2012:

http://www.coltsauthority.com/2013-arti ... backs.html

Since your mind is beyond made up regarding Ponder's competence, I doubt you'll be interested but others might be...

Don't be bringing facts and stats to the discussion. It will just confuse people.

[VikingLord]

LOL! For an incompetent QB, he's been awfully good in the red zone over his short career. Here's an interesting take on red zone performance by QBs in 2012:

http://www.coltsauthority.com/2013-arti ... backs.html

Since your mind is beyond made up regarding Ponder's competence, I doubt you'll be interested but others might be...

"Awfully good"?

How about "awfully average at best" and "awfully helped by a high incidence of defensive penalties in the red zone" and "awfully helped by shorter field position in the red zone due to the best RB in the league"?

And even if the stats in this article are taken at face value, they hardly support any conclusion beyond Ponder is average to below average in the red zone. Reignman's stats show Ponder is below average to well below average everywhere else.

And the 74% completion percentage is hardly something to get excited about. Ponder had better complete a high percentage of passes if those passes rarely travel more than 5 yards past the LOS. The super low yards-per-attempt is telling there and goes hand-in-hand with Ponder's well-established aversion to making deep attempts, much less completing the few he attempts.

I also really liked Reignman's comment about the Vikings asking Ponder to execute a run-oriented offense. If that is true, the team never needed to blow a high 1st on the QB position. 1st round picks in general, but 1st round QBs in particular, are meant to be impact starters. Saying all Ponder has to do to be successful is not make mistakes and hand it of to AD is like Dennis Green saying the Underwood pick wasn't wasted because it was the 2nd pick the Vikes had that year in the 1st round.

I literally could not watch Ponder past the 1st half of 3-and-outs. And Frazier is fooling himself if he thinks Ponder merits as many clicks in the preseason as guys like Reignman mentioned. Ponder and his offense look like they are at least 3 weeks behind the teams they have played so far (every one of them).

Offensive line definitely has issues. Receivers could always be better and gain more separation I suppose. AD and Spencer could be lined up behind the QB. But Ponder the 3rd year #12 draft choice needs to show us something too. He needs to show that he can stay calm in the pocket, read the field, show anticipation, and step up and deliver accurate throws and/or buy the time he needs to do that.

How much longer does he get to show he is consistently capable of it against anything more than the other team's backups? Does he get to waste a whole season while we watch him struggle to do it yet again?

[mosscarter]

vikinglord i'm afraid it will be another wasted season, aside from sanchez ponder is the worst starting qb in the nfl. i honestly believe sanchez would have put up better numbers than ponder last year with peterson in his backfield. in 26 starts, does ponder have a total of 3 or 4 passes over 50 yards? people need to wake up, this kid does not have it.

[The Breeze]

Why do people keep bringing up Vince Young as a knock against the QB coach? The guy is 31-19 as a starter!

What exactly does he need to change mechanics-wise?

His issues have been between the ears, I'm dubious of dumping that off on the QB coach. Most QBs have the physical skills to play the position and most times it's the mental part of the game that defeats them....whether it's confidence or lack of focus etc.
The main thing I worry about with Ponder is that he might be too smart to totally commit to NFL football....ala Robert Smith, Ricky Willims. For guys like that, with a few million in the bank, it's gotta be a pretty insane proposition to seriously risk your health (especially behind this O-line) on a weekly basis, unless you are just a freak of a competitor.

For me that's what I need to see from Ponder, a guy who will do whatever it takes to win. I think he is still sorting that out to some degree. If he can step up, man up,and deliver... he could be really good. If not....next man up~

[mosscarter]

how did vince young's career end up?

[Texas Vike]

how did vince young's career end up?

Hasn't ended yet.

Premature? Your comment, I mean.

[Raptorman]

Hasn't ended yet.

Premature? Your comment, I mean.

Well considering that T. Jack has better passing numbers than Young, I'm not so sure. Last year Young was cut by the Bills after they brought Jackson in. That in itself should tell you something.

[mosscarter]

so your are implying vince young will be a starter again in this league? my point is ponder is heading the same route.

[Texas Vike]

Well considering that T. Jack has better passing numbers than Young, I'm not so sure. Last year Young was cut by the Bills after they brought Jackson in. That in itself should tell you something.

Yes. It tells me that the Bills felt TJack was worth more to them at that particular moment than VY.

[Mothman]

"Awfully good"?

Awfully good "for an incompetent QB". If you leave out that last part, it changes the message just a little, don't you think?

How about "awfully average at best" and "awfully helped by a high incidence of defensive penalties in the red zone" and "awfully helped by shorter field position in the red zone due to the best RB in the league"?

I see. Does he not deserve credit for the plays or choices he made in those situations? Did you read the article at the link? They specifically point out why they included penalties in their analysis and it's because the QB has a hand in creating some of them. However, even if you toss them out, he's performed well in the red zone.

Look, if you're going to just dismiss Ponder's contributions because they're inconvenient, there's no point in even discussing the subject. Does Ponder benefit from having AD on the field in the red zone? Sure. Do other QBs, better QBs, also benefit from having star players on the offenses they run? Absolutely. Success in the NFL never occurs in a vacuum.

And even if the stats in this article are taken at face value, they hardly support any conclusion beyond Ponder is average to below average in the red zone.

Average is a far cry from incompetent, wouldn't you agree? I see no indication that he's been below average as a red zone QB.

And the 74% completion percentage is hardly something to get excited about.

Who's excited about it? The point is that it's not something to rant and rave about as if it's awful, incompetent, etc. A 74% completion rate is good, not bad. Throwing for 2 TDs is good, not bad. Those are positives.

Offensive line definitely has issues. Receivers could always be better and gain more separation I suppose. AD and Spencer could be lined up behind the QB. But Ponder the 3rd year #12 draft choice needs to show us something too. He needs to show that he can stay calm in the pocket, read the field, show anticipation, and step up and deliver accurate throws and/or buy the time he needs to do that.

Go to NFL.com, watch the highlights of the game and watch the throws he makes to Jennings, Simpson and Webb in those highlights. In every one he does what you just said you want to see. He reads the field, shows anticipation and delivers a very catchable passes. They aren't all absolutely perfect in every way but they're good throws, NFL starting QB throws.The execution is there on each of those plays and they weren't the only plays in the game where he did his job well. There were plays where he didn't too but you're obviously well aware of those plays. You seem to have overlooked the good ones.

[PurpleKoolaid]

To bad Ponder cant see the 3rd string D's every week during the regular season.

[Texas Vike]

so your are implying vince young will be a starter again in this league? my point is ponder is heading the same route.

I think it's premature to talk about how his career "ended up". He hasn't retired yet. He is one injury away from starting for the Packers. VY has competed at a super high level (see Rose Bowl vs. USC; also, NFL ROY). If he gets his head straight I feel confident that he could be a starter again.

http://www.usatoday.com/story/sports/nf ... e/2695723/

[The Breeze]

how did vince young's career end up?

Young pretty much had a breakdown and couldtn't handle just being.
Now, he's looked good enough for the packers that they cut the guy they drafted as Rodgers backup in favor of Young.
I still don't see how Young's career realistically relates to the QB coach and/or Ponder.

Ponder may very well wind up not starting in year or two or 3. For the majority of NFL QBs, that is the case, an overwhelming majority. That's not the fault of coaching, if it were then no QB coach would have job.

Does the QB in New England get credit for Tom Brady?......what about Matt Cassel then? Why aren't their careers lining up? Maybe the QB coach in KC messed Cassel up.

Young has had head issues....Ponde may have, but to say it's the fault of coaching is too conveniant IMO.

[Angels Wings]

It would probably have to be very long and painful to land him.

But it would all feel better when the Clowney jersey comes in the mail...

[Reignman]

The sad part is Cassel looked like Joe Webb (as QB) his last outing, so there will be no 'savior' for us if Ponder struggles. It's more of an 'excuse' (if you want to call it that) for Frazier and why he may have limited snaps in the first place...

Cassel looking like absolute garbage is why I'm a little more panicked than usual lol. But I haven't been blaming Ponder for the limited snaps, that's all on Frazier. Childress handled TJoke the same way in preseason and it drove me nuts.

I doubt it would and it would mean more minutes for the starting offense, not just Ponder. It's not exactly difficult to figure out why Frazier might not want to do that.

Earlier in this thread you said you believed there was some value in getting AD on the field for a series or 2 in preseason, but then on the other hand you don't think there's any value in giving Ponder an extra series or 2? Which is it?

Are we really supposed to be troubled because Cam Newton, Joe Flacco and Eli Manning have each attempted all of 5 more passes than Ponder this preseason

Yes, considering how Ponder should have a lot more attempts than all of them. Standard operating procedure is ok if your guy has already established himself. It's not if he needs all the reps he can get.

a little "dancing" wasn't surprising and isn't tremendous cause for concern

A "little" dancing? I never know when you're being serious.

Ponder completed almost 75% of his passes in the game.

You mean he completed 75% of his checkdowns. Did you see the only pass where he went deep? Hint: It was the first pass of the game.

but as you can see, the usual post-game Ponder panic is in the air).

Come on, admit it, you Ponder buffs are starting to panic a little bit now too xD. Hey even I blamed the INT on Burton, at least you guys can admit that first deep pass to Jennings was cringe worthy.

Not that this is related but my lady friend and I have started watching a game of thrones and I gotta say, you guys were born in the wrong time. Back then all you had to do was convince the king to say "off with his head!" and you could get a new guard (o-line), council member (coach), or captain of the guard (QB) in a matter of hours!

Quite frankly I'm really disappointing it takes you guys so long to get things done.

You and your lady friend are going to love GoT. I don't know which episode you're on so I won't spoil anything. But no I'm glad I wasn't born back then. Did you see the scene where they just dumped their chamber pots out the window? Yeah I'm perfectly content with modern indoor plumbing. If I could choose a time in which to be born, I would choose some time in the future tyvm.

LOL! For an incompetent QB, he's been awfully good in the red zone over his short career. Here's an interesting take on red zone performance by QBs in 2012:

http://www.coltsauthority.com/2013-arti ... backs.html

Since your mind is beyond made up regarding Ponder's competence, I doubt you'll be interested but others might be...

For every chart that shows Ponder in the middle of the pack, there are 20 that show him at the bottom. So he becomes average once AD carries him into the RZ, a lot of good that does us anywhere else on the field. How bout that graphic they showed Sunday night where Ponder had 0 passing TD's over 20 yards last year? And he had what, the 2nd most attempts in NFL history when pulling off that stunning feat?

I also really liked Reignman's comment about the Vikings asking Ponder to execute a run-oriented offense. If that is true, the team never needed to blow a high 1st on the QB position. 1st round picks in general, but 1st round QBs in particular, are meant to be impact starters. Saying all Ponder has to do to be successful is not make mistakes and hand it of to AD is like Dennis Green saying the Underwood pick wasn't wasted because it was the 2nd pick the Vikes had that year in the 1st round.

Thank you! And I'm going to ask it again because I think I was ignored, why did we waste a 1st round pick on a guy to come here just to hand the ball to AD, and then call it a 3 year project? It takes 3 years to learn how to throw check downs and hand the ball off to the best RB in NFL history 25 times a game?