Vikings @ Bills Game Day Discussion Thread -- Preseaon #2

[Funkytown]

Between Brady, Rodgers, Brees and Manning, they have thrown a total of 85 passes. About 21 each over two games. And not to mention, 48 years of experience between them. I would expect them to be pretty much set at this time of year. And yes, they have been pretty vanilla. You want to compare Ponder in pre-season, why don't you do it with the guys drafted around him, like Gabbert, and Locker, Mallett and Dalton. You know, all the guys everyone wanted to draft other than Ponder.

Using those guys as examples/comparisons wouldn't work as well for my argument though, would it? Especially if my argument is we shouldn't be comfortable with what we are seeing out there. No way those QBs and their offenses should be getting/needing more time than Ponder and ours. No. Way. Vanilla play or not...no. freaking. way. And to risk injury on top of it? Get out of town! They shouldn't be playing, let alone seriously trying to get into sync and score points. They should be going night night.

[Funkytown]

Yes but you're talking about two different things, playcalling and execution.

Both.

No, because I expect execution on plays called. Vanilla or not, I expect execution, first downs, and eventually points. I don't expect what I saw the other night, or anything close to it. And crap like that is going to result in injuries we so desperately seek to avoid.

[PacificNorseWest]

I made some comments on the game in the positives and negative threads, but in here I'd like to point out that I was very encouraged with what I saw.

Offense will come around, but I mainly wanted to hit on the fact of the O-line being so bad and the defense doing ok when the starters were in (mainly because Kolb sucks).

New HC's from college usually do things the way the Bills did. Run heavy blitz packages and do things like no huddle out-of-the-gate on offense to make sure they belong in the NFL as coaches. The Vikings are evaluating and trying to sync their team. Call it unpreparedness and you wouldn't be wrong. I just don't think a lot of these issues are something to harp on too much (as fans, but the coaches will be ripping them a new one) in week 2 of the preseason.

[The Breeze]

But, that might result in some key injuries. Why risk it if you're already in the post-season? The main focus should be on staying healthy, not worrying about what other teams are doing!

I'm just having fun at this point. I'm all for staying healthy, and I'm glad we did (aside from Wright). What I'm saying is: We got lucky with Ponder escaping injury. All this "let's be vanilla" in the preseason talk is all fine and dandy, but if we see this same sort of thing against the Niners, Ponder is going to be on the ground a lot again. Our offense needs to figure it out, move the ball, and keep Ponder upright. Is that asking too much? I don't think so. In part, my point is: Playing better on offense WOULD increase the chance of staying healthy, especially concerning Ponder.

I would say that figuring it out, moving the ball, and keep Ponder upright is always what they want to do. Whether/weather/wether it's too much too ask is one thing. Expecting a specific result is another. I'm not convinced they have done any of those things consistently during Ponder's tenure or at all when AD is not in the game.

But my point is that the risk vs the reward (injury vs Ponder getting better) was not a good wager from the coaches perspective. And I get the decision because it's his butt on the line and he probably doesn't really care much about my expectations either way.

But yeah...they definitely need to get better and lean less on AD IMO.

[PacificNorseWest]

^Maybe so, but I'm not buying into all of it. I think he played well given the circumstances. I doubt the Vikings fully prepared Ponder for what they saw, which is usually their job (unless your Brady, Manning, Brees, or Wilson). He'll be alright.

[Texas Vike]

The All-22: Christian Ponder’s confusion against Buffalo’s defense speaks to a larger issue

Wow. It may be pre-season, but this writer is in Super-bowl mode!

He has taken ONE play from a PRESEASON game and arrived at the conclusion that Ponder is afraid to make certain throws and will not cut it in the NFL? Whatever creates interest and generates hits is the name of the game these days.

[PacificNorseWest]

Wow. It may be pre-season, but this writer is in Super-bowl mode!

He has taken ONE play from a PRESEASON game and arrived at the conclusion that Ponder is afraid to make certain throws and will not cut it in the NFL? Whatever creates interest and generates hits is the name of the game these days.

Yep.

[PurpleKoolaid]

Wow. It may be pre-season, but this writer is in Super-bowl mode!

He has taken ONE play from a PRESEASON game and arrived at the conclusion that Ponder is afraid to make certain throws and will not cut it in the NFL? Whatever creates interest and generates hits is the name of the game these days.

And he knocked Ponder. How dare he!
Its just ones guys opinion. And I doubt he came to his conclusion based on a single play. All writters do it to get an angle on a player/team. If you want, I can break down what I think of Ponders career with the Vikes so far.

[PacificNorseWest]

Joe Webb has sure hands.

[Eli]

The All-22: Christian Ponder’s confusion against Buffalo’s defense speaks to a larger issue

Man, they're starting already! Looks like Ponder is going to have a verrrrrrry long season if he struggles. Good thing he doesn't read any of that stuff in the press.

[Demi]

Wow. It may be pre-season, but this writer is in Super-bowl mode!

He has taken ONE play from a PRESEASON game and arrived at the conclusion that Ponder is afraid to make certain throws and will not cut it in the NFL? Whatever creates interest and generates hits is the name of the game these days.

http://www.twincities.com/vikings/ci_23 ... confidence

MANKATO, Minn. -- Greg Jennings turned on the video of Christian Ponder in March, trying to learn about the man who would be his new quarterback if he signed with the Vikings, and he saw a flaw that ran through Ponder's game. But just as quickly as Jennings diagnosed it, he came to believe how good Ponder could be if the quarterback corrected it.

Ponder would have to hit a timing route -- a quick slant, for example -- and hesitate for a beat as he tried to decide whether his receiver would be open enough to catch the ball. It wasn't that he couldn't make the throws or didn't know where to go with the ball, Jennings realized, but that he didn't always trust things would work out if he let the ball go.

Or, more pointedly, it was like Ponder didn't trust himself enough to make a play even if things weren't perfect.

"I know he trusts himself, but at times, it's like, 'Ahh, I don't know if he's going to do it,' " Jennings said. "It's that split-second. And we've got to have that split-second."

Jennings might have hit on the most important thing about Ponder's development heading into his third NFL season: whether he can consistently throw into windows a fraction of the size he'd like to have. The best quarterbacks in the league are precise and confident enough to do it; Jennings made his living catching those kinds of passes from Brett Favre and Aaron Rodgers in Green Bay.

And if Ponder is going to become the Vikings' first long-term fixture at quarterback in a generation, he'll have to figure out how to work with a thin margin for error -- and believe he can get the job done.

Oh those evil media members out to get poor little Ponder.
Imagine these boards if Ponder was QB for another division team?
But no, he's ours. So we have to defend him. Even when he clearly doesn't pass the eye test two preseason games into his third year. Not even able to complete basic throws.

But yeah, it's that damn evil media.
The truth hurts, and that article was just a whole lot of the truth that people are STILL trying to ignore.

[VikingLord]

The All-22: Christian Ponder’s confusion against Buffalo’s defense speaks to a larger issue

I agree with the author of the article. He clearly says that the Bills gave Ponder a throw option on the play to Jennings, but Ponder either didn't see it or didn't trust himself to make the throw and instead did his usual attempt to escape outside the pocket and run. This should not surprise anyone as Ponder has a well-established history of this type of reaction. It should, however, be concerning to those of us who hoped to see Ponder settling down more in the pocket, reading the situation, and reacting to it by finding a good matchup downfield and going for it using his arm.

What I've seen from Ponder so far is exactly what I remember seeing from him in every game he's played since he joined the Vikings - a skittish QB who struggles to read the field, abandons the pocket too quickly, relies on his running ability too much, and has terrible mechanics, especially under duress, which greatly affects his accuracy. Sure, the Bills trotted out an "exotic" defense, but given they have a new defensive coordinator and they need to evaluate their players and schemes, that shouldn't come as a shocker to anyone, least of all a starting QB named Ponder who is so established in the eyes of his coaches that he threw all of 2 passes in the first preseason game before sitting down and letting the backups play.

When Ponder said what he said about the Bills I groaned. Whatever the Bills threw at him and the Vikings offense, he and they should have been capable of handling it even without AD. If Ponder is going to be the guy in Minnesota, he'd best start by stopping with the lame excuses and start to take responsibility when he and his teammates should do better. An experienced offensive line with an experienced QB should not get their hats handed to them by anyone even in the preseason IMHO.

[VikingLord]

Not even able to complete basic throws.

I'd go farther - not even able to attempt basic throws, because he's not able to recognize situations and react appropriately. He panics. His panic leads him to tuck and run, or worse, attempt desperation throws falling off his back foot.

Without AD Ponder is exposed. It's as simple as that. Yes, the offensive line was a sieve against the Bills, but Favre played behind a line not much better in 2009 and he consistently bought himself the space and time necessary to step up and make solid, accurate throws.

I was really, really hoping to see some evolution in Ponder's confidence, recognition, and mechanics, especially with supposedly "better" receivers. I have seen almost no evidence of any improvement at all from him. Unless everyone around him is playing darn near flawless, Ponder is painfully exposed. I wish I was wrong, but short of a miracle turnaround or another herculean effort from AD and others, I find it hard to believe Ponder will be the starting QB in Minnesota at this time next year. If he could improve, he would have by this point.

[The Breeze]

I get that Ponder's issue is settling down and being stable in the pocket...making his reads, and the proper throws and such. But comparing what he should be doing to what Favre was able to do, in what was arguably his best season ever, is a bit much for me.

Remember what Favre did in his second season in Minny and what McNabb did the season after and what TJack did the seasons before Favre got here? As much as Ponder can be pointed out for his lack of maturity(weird since he has all of one full season under his belt) ....the pass blocking and general dismal play of the Viking offensive line for the last 8-10 years is far and away a bigger issue IMO.

They have been HORRIBLE.

And ADs play polishes the collective turd of their play just as much as it does any QB under center. You take all those 60yd plus TDsfrom AD last season and reduce them to just his average yards per carry and he is nowhere near 2000yds and this team most likely is 8-8. Giving this O- line credit for the yards he gains after contact is a total joke. Overrated they are.....for whatever reason. I have no idea how the blocking schemes work or don't. All I know is when I watch Brady and Flacco and Manning play, they have all kinds of time to throw the ball and they don't have anything like AD behind them. They burn you when you blitz them because, for one, their go to receiver is not Michael Jenkins or half a season of Percy Harvin. And just to be clear the comparison here is what is around these other guys not to Ponder. Obviously they have shown they are great QBs in the league but Brady walked into being a starter behind an already talented team and line while it took Manning 6 years(?) to win his first playoff game.

Is there a single wideout still on this team who was here 3 seasons ago? Is there another playoff team in that situation?

I understand and agree that Ponder has a big step up to make, it's freaking obvious, .....but to pin it all on him? Less than 2 qtrs of preseason ball with a functional receiving core (finally), behind a line than has just as many questions about it as Ponder himself? I may be wrong but....... I think some have jumped the shark in all of this.

Please...feel free to disagree and accept my apologies for being a homer and apologist.

[Funkytown]

Ponder has to do a lot better. No doubt. And I think he will with the better weapons around him. But, yes, the pass blocking also needs to improve; probably first if we are going to expect anything spectacular from the passing game. The blocking is downright hideous at times. And I think we can all agree about Peterson making the o-line look better than it actually is. He does the same for the entire offense. We all know what we look like without him. It's not a pretty sight.