The Christian Ponder Thread

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King James
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Re: Christian Ponder

Post by King James »

808vikingsfan wrote: I take it you're from the Allen Iverson school of preparation. :D

I swear some people cant comprehend crap these days.....

What I mean is that turnovers will happen in practices, how else will get Ponder get better if he doesn't make any mistakes. I was trying to get people to lighten up because it as reported that Ponder was throwing a lot of picks in the OTAs. My only argument that it is practice, and he is just trying to do plays outside of his comfort zone and will make some mistakes from time to time.

Dont bring NBA into a NFL discussion. His thinking about practices is miles away of what Im trying to explain to people here.
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Re: Christian Ponder

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JEC334 wrote: I know Ive been a little tough on Ponder since he arrived but I show him a little love now because he has potential. His arm strength is fine. He has shown that he can make throws when he really needs to. He has also improved moderately but surely each season. I just think he didn't have much confidence with the weapons around him.

This season we will see a different Ponder. I still dont expect him to start bombing 50+ passes downfield right away because we are not that kind of team right now. We left those plays alone back in the CulPepper and Moss era. But with the new WRs we do have, I think they work well with the West Coast offense. Ponder may take a shot every now and then but with the tools we have, I dont think the pressure is on him to shoot the ball downfield every down.

And another thing I realize is that this fan base is too impatient. Especially with the QB position. Whenever we draft someone we expect them to be a star right away. Some guys like Ponder will take time. He's an average QB when it comes to learning and most QBs dont reach their prime until they get into their 30s. We will have to be patient and continue to build around. No one can really say if Ponder is the reason we lose games. There's not a game where he really just blew it. But ofcourse whenever a team loses, they go back to the stat sheets of the QB and find some way to put him at fault. In Ponder's case it's not getting enough passing yards. But this upcoming season will show us alot about Ponder and the rest of the team.
These are some good thoughts here. I'm glad you are coming to your senses a bit--and becoming more understanding and patient yourself. You're growing up before my eyes. :wink:

You're right. Ponder may or may not work out for us, but patience is needed. Pulling the plug on a guy after a year or so of play (like many fans wanted) after we drafted him so high is crazy. I like Ponder a lot, but I think this is the year we really judge him on. If he improves and becomes the guy--great. If not, we'll probably begin to look elsewhere. And I'm fine with that. I just didn't want to give up on him so soon, considering all of the surrounding circumstances. And THAT is why I stuck up for him so much on Vikings.com. That--and because cry-baby fans annoy me. lol. You know the drill. ;) But, looks like now you get it. ;)

:govikes:
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Re: Christian Ponder

Post by S197 »

Mothman wrote: It's about situations, talent and perspective. Newton and Luck were both the first picks in the draft and Luck was viewed as a once-in-a-decade prospect. Ponder's not in that class but let's not forget that he's also had success. Ponder was the QB of a 10 win playoff team last season and he was instrumental in some key wins over big-time opponents.
I think you're misunderstanding my response. PMR said people see the success of Flacco and expect that from every rookie QB. What I was saying is that it's not only Flacco, we have seen a number of young QB's enter the league and be successful very early. This is not the norm over an extended period, it could just be an anomaly, but it is something we are seeing in recent years. QB's are struggling much less in their first couple of seasons compared to guys like the two Manning's, etc.
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Re: Christian Ponder

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S197 wrote:I think you're misunderstanding my response. PMR said people see the success of Flacco and expect that from every rookie QB. What I was saying is that it's not only Flacco, we have seen a number of young QB's enter the league and be successful very early. This is not the norm over an extended period, it could just be an anomaly, but it is something we are seeing in recent years. QB's are struggling much less in their first couple of seasons compared to guys like the two Manning's, etc.
I understood what you meant. The point I was making is that those recent success stories have a lot to do with the talent of those particular players and/or the situations in which they landed.
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Re: Christian Ponder

Post by mosscarter »

in all honesty, that game in green bay last year was the most pathetic performance by an nfl qb i've ever seen. peterson runs for over 200 yards on the road and ponder makes a high school lob pass for an interception in the end zone. i nearly vomited. he needs to start putting some real zip on the ball or else hit the gym to build up arm strength. i'm on the side of those who don't think he has a strong arm. when was the last time he drilled someone in the end zone for a td? all of his passes, even to rudolph, are lob balls in which the receiver has to make a play.
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Re: Christian Ponder

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Mothman wrote: I understood what you meant. The point I was making is that those recent success stories have a lot to do with the talent of those particular players and/or the situations in which they landed.
Anyone who is drafted early and is successful is due to talent, anyone drafted later and is successful is due to the situation. I guess you have all your bases covered there. I didn't provide you with only #1 picks, I also included players drafted in the 2nd and 3rd rounds. The point here is that in aggregate, we have seen a lot of young QB's be highly successful much quicker in recent years even compared historically to similarly drafted positions and situations.

Peyton Manning and Andrew Luck are a good example.
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Re: Christian Ponder

Post by Demi »

Ponder's mistakes were very costly, no doubt, but it's a team game, won and lost by teams.
Yeah, individual players mistakes taking points off the board, still 10 other guys so we're just suppose to ignore that.

Teams are made up of individuals. Those individuals can contribute more or less to those wins and losses.

But then, Ponder has had "a lot of success" individually...because the Vikings won as a team. So guess you cover all your bases there too. :confused:
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Re: Christian Ponder

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S197 wrote:Anyone who is drafted early and is successful is due to talent, anyone drafted later and is successful is due to the situation. I guess you have all your bases covered there.
I'm simply saying those things matter and shouldn't be ignored. Why is anybody comparing Ponder to Luck, RG3 or Newton as if there's a reasonable expectation that he should be as good as players drafted #1 or #2 in the draft? Was there a controversy in 2011 about whether Ponder or Newton should have been the top pick in the draft? ;)

I'm not "covering my bases" here, I'm just talking about reasonable expectations and fair comparisons. Luck was superb in college and was touted as a once-in-a decade QB talent. He should look better than Ponder out of the gate because he is better. Ditto for the other 2. They aren't reasonable measuring sticks for what should be expected from Ponder at this point and if he is going to be better than those players, it will take time and it will have to be because he develops into a smarter, more skilled player because he simply doesn't have the raw talent they possess.
I didn't provide you with only #1 picks, I also included players drafted in the 2nd and 3rd rounds.
Yes, and I'd argue that they landed in better situations. Kaepernick certainly did. He had a year to learn the position on a championship caliber team.
The point here is that in aggregate, we have seen a lot of young QB's be highly successful much quicker in recent years even compared historically to similarly drafted positions and situations.

Peyton Manning and Andrew Luck are a good example.
Yes, we have and I agree with that point. I'm just looking at why we've seen that and trying to expand on your point by reinforcing that not all young QBs are equal. I think rules changes have helped this trend you're talking about and (sorry for repeating myself) quite a few of these QBs have landed in good situations that have helped them thrive quickly. What shouldn't get lost is that Ponder, despite all the criticism and the fact that questions remain about him, has had his share of success too. His critics want to focus on the negatives but in year 2 as an NFL starter, he was the QB of a playoff team and his performance helped them get there. In some games it was a key to their success. I think the problem is many Vikes fans want him to be Luck. They want the next Peyton Manning and since Ponder's not that guy, he sucks and they'll keep complaining until the team takes a shot at another QB (who will then be blasted relentlessly if he's not an immediate success with a rocket arm and physical abilities off the charts. So it goes.).

Comparing Ponder to young player X or Y and lamenting that he's not as good as they are seems relatively pointless to me because those players aren't available. They're on other teams, in their own set of circumstances. I'd much rather look at what he has to offer, how he performed as a rookie, where he made strides in 2012, what he's shown that suggests he can be a a solution for the Vikes, etc. I care a lot less about Ponder becoming a top 5 QB or zipping a TD into the end zone than than I do about his ability to be the QB of a championship Vikings team and throw TD passes. If those passes aren't zipped, that's fine. They're still TDs. If Ponder's stats are mediocre but his performance isn't and the team is winning, I'll be happy.

... and just to be clear, I know you weren't necessarily comparing those young QBs you mentioned directly to Ponder but those comparisons have been made many times in the past year or two and that's what I'm trying to address above.

As long as I'm ranting away, I'll finish with this: I defend Ponder a lot around here because I think some of the criticism directed at him is inaccurate, unfair or even just plain silly. However, I'm not sold on him as the Vikings future at QB either. I have doubts about him and I was frustrated with his lapses last year just like everybody else. I find some of his performances encouraging and some discouraging but I see enough there to still have hope that he can be the QB the Vikes need him to become.

Rant over! :)
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Re: Christian Ponder

Post by Mothman »

Demi wrote: Yeah, individual players mistakes taking points off the board, still 10 other guys so we're just suppose to ignore that.
I didn't say anybody should ignore it. If you interpret phrases like "Ponder's mistakes were very costly" and "Ponder has to shoulder a great deal of the blame" as a suggestion to ignore his mistakes, then either you didn't pay attention to what I wrote or (far more likely) you're just intentionally ignoring/misrepresenting it, which is basically trolling.
Teams are made up of individuals. Those individuals can contribute more or less to those wins and losses.
Yes, they can. See: "Ponder has to shoulder a great deal of the blame". Is that language not clear enough for you? "A great deal" means "a large amount".
Last edited by Mothman on Sat Jun 15, 2013 8:59 pm, edited 1 time in total.
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Re: Christian Ponder

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I found this article interesting, the subject is Philip Rivers but the main focus is on why this new batch of QB's may be performing at a higher level than QB's that came out 10 years ago. The author makes some interesting points.

http://www.boltsfromtheblue.com/2013/6/ ... lip-rivers
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Re: Christian Ponder

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S197 wrote:I found this article interesting, the subject is Philip Rivers but the main focus is on why this new batch of QB's may be performing at a higher level than QB's that came out 10 years ago. The author makes some interesting points.

http://www.boltsfromtheblue.com/2013/6/ ... lip-rivers
Thanks for the link. He does make some interesting points and I think the first point, regarding the amount of experience and preparation some young QBs are receiving at the high school and college level, is particularly significant. I don't know if playing Madden football helps much but I understand what he was saying and he makes an excellent point about the benefits of technology and the impact it may be having on college QBs.
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Re: Christian Ponder

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Name one game where Ponder was solely responsible for the lost? And dont say all of them.
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Re: Christian Ponder

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In Ponder's first full season as starter, he played well. He did the one thing you would hope would happen. He improved at the point in the season in which it was critical. That tells you much about him. The skills and the athleticism are there. He is an extremely smart young man. . I look for Ponder to throw 30 plus touchdowns and 3500 plus yards. He throws a nice completion ratio already. Now he has actual receivers to throw to. For those who follow the team, you already knew that. This team is poised to make a serious super bowl run.
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Re: Christian Ponder

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JEC334 wrote:Name one game where Ponder was solely responsible for the lost? And dont say all of them.
We already did. The Packers game he threw points off the board himself. But that doesn't count unless...he runs backwards for a safety with 1 second left up by 1 point? I guess?
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Re: Christian Ponder

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Demi wrote: We already did. The Packers game he threw points off the board himself. But that doesn't count unless...he runs backwards for a safety with 1 second left up by 1 point? I guess?
It might count if he was playing alone.

What is so hard to grasp about the idea that in a sport where each team has 22 starters and more players than that involved, one player is never solely responsible for a loss? Why even try to fight that obvious fact? Isn't it enough for people to acknowledge that Ponder's performance in that game was a huge reason for the loss? What's the point of trying to hold him solely responsible?

The Vikings allowed 23 points in that game and GB had an 11 minute scoring drive to begin the 4th quarter. Walsh missed a 42 yard field goal with just over 2 minutes left. Those were factors in the loss too.
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