The Christian Ponder Thread

[The Breeze]

Regardless of the topic, I just do my level best to stay hardcore.

[dead_poet]

I dont know if you were being sarcastic or not. But whatever.

I was just pointing out that I wasn't really doing my part in following directions of the thread.

Ponder is an athletic quarterback. Boy's got some speed.

There.

[mansquatch]

Is it really more interesting to discuss Mike Wobschall?

And that is the quote of the day!

My take is the same as it has been all season: Do we get Dr. Jekyll or Mr. Hyde? If Ponder didn’t have potential it would be all Mr. Hyde, but I don’t see how anyone can conclude that after watching him last December. Does he need to be better? Absolutely. I just don’t see how a guy with zero potential does what he did to Green Bay in Week 17 last year. Bottom line we need to see December Ponder for 17 weeks instead of 4.

[J. Kapp 11]

I'm not sure what this has to do with scrambling, perhaps the intelligence/athletic ability of the receiver to work back towards the QB and find an opening? That'd require quite a bit of film analysis to determine how each receiver is able to do that and compare that to last year.

I think the quality of receivers has a lot to do with scrambling.

If guys run bad routes and don't create separation, the QB can't (or shouldn't) throw them the ball. When that happens, the play gets extended.

Don't know about you, but I don't have to study a lot of film to know that most of the Vikings' receiving corps over the past couple of years haven't exactly been the reincarnation of Jerry Rice when it comes to route-running and separation. My best anecdotal example of this was the Tampa Bay game. I was there in the stadium in a position where I could see the plays unfold. Fans were booing Ponder unmercifully, but honestly they probably should have been booing the receivers. Nobody was running routes worth a crap. Tampa's DBs -- among the worst in the league statistically -- were blanketing our receivers with ease.

That creates a lot of situations for a QB to run for his life.

[S197]

Honestly, I think there are only two serious problems with Ponder's game: decision-making and mechanics.

I more or less agree with this. For me I would say vision and mechanics but that might be semantics depending on how you define decision-making. I think he also needs to work on pocket presence although the line's protection needs to be more consistent as well to help in this aspect. Ponder showed growth over last season and I look forward to seeing how he does this year.

[PacificNorseWest]

Honestly, I think there are only two serious problems with Ponder's game: decision-making and mechanics.

Most notably when he's under pressure.

[losperros]

I think the quality of receivers has a lot to do with scrambling.

If guys run bad routes and don't create separation, the QB can't (or shouldn't) throw them the ball. When that happens, the play gets extended.

Don't know about you, but I don't have to study a lot of film to know that most of the Vikings' receiving corps over the past couple of years haven't exactly been the reincarnation of Jerry Rice when it comes to route-running and separation. My best anecdotal example of this was the Tampa Bay game. I was there in the stadium in a position where I could see the plays unfold. Fans were booing Ponder unmercifully, but honestly they probably should have been booing the receivers. Nobody was running routes worth a crap. Tampa's DBs -- among the worst in the league statistically -- were blanketing our receivers with ease.

That creates a lot of situations for a QB to run for his life.

I agree with both of you and I'm glad I'm not alone in thinking the Vikings have had fairly bad WR corps lately. That doesn't mean someone like Harvin was bad but the WR corps as a whole simply didn't cut it. Some say that's providing "excuses" for Ponder. I don't buy it. RBs need the OL to run block for them. A QB needs the OL to pass block and the WRs to get open.

Personally, I think Ponder isn't the best scrambling QB and apparently the stats show that. But the guy is mobile, does nice roll outs, and on occasion can pick up yards with his legs. However, I don't want Ponder scrambling for his life. If he does, it's going to be primarily because the pass blocking breaks down or the WRs aren't getting open. That's one of the reasons why I'm excited about both the acquisition of Greg Jennings and the Vikings drafting Cordarrelle Patterson, plus Jarius Wright now has a year of experience and it seems a healthy Jerome Simpson can run again. No excuses for Ponder? Okay. But no excuses for the WR corps either. It's time for them to step up and hopefully they do this season.

[Mothman]

I more or less agree with this. For me I would say vision and mechanics but that might be semantics depending on how you define decision-making.

Well, I think of vision as being able to see the field and the possibilities available to him and overall, I don't think this is a problem for Ponder, although he will occasionally fail to see an open receiver he should spot (as opposed to one who comes open late, after he's been passed in the read progression) or he'll fail to see a defender he needs to see. There's definitely room for improvement in that area but i don't see it as a major issue, just one of many areas where he still has some learning to do. When I mention decision-making, I'm referring primarily to good judgment: getting a better feel for when to try to fit a pass into a tight space, when to throw the ball away, when to check down or even just protect the ball and go down. The most egregious example of a poor decision he made last year may have been the INT he threw in the endzone at Lambeau (I think it was after AD's big run early in the 3rd quarter). That was a play where he just looked right at a bad situation and threw the ball anyway.

I think he also needs to work on pocket presence although the line's protection needs to be more consistent as well to help in this aspect.

He could definitely stand to be more patient in the pocket.

Ponder showed growth over last season and I look forward to seeing how he does this year.

I do too. It's been a bumpy ride so far but I think he has an excellent chance to take a big step forward in his development and performance.

[Mothman]

I agree with both of you and I'm glad I'm not alone in thinking the Vikings have had fairly bad WR corps lately. That doesn't mean someone like Harvin was bad but the WR corps as a whole simply didn't cut it. Some say that's providing "excuses" for Ponder. I don't buy it. RBs need the OL to run block for them. A QB needs the OL to pass block and the WRs to get open.

Personally, I think Ponder isn't the best scrambling QB and apparently the stats show that. But the guy is mobile, does nice roll outs, and on occasion can pick up yards with his legs. However, I don't want Ponder scrambling for his life. If he does, it's going to be primarily because the pass blocking breaks down or the WRs aren't getting open. That's one of the reasons why I'm excited about both the acquisition of Greg Jennings and the Vikings drafting Cordarrelle Patterson, plus Jarius Wright now has a year of experience and it seems a healthy Jerome Simpson can run again. No excuses for Ponder? Okay. But no excuses for the WR corps either. It's time for them to step up and hopefully they do this season.

Well said!

[dead_poet]

I think the quality of receivers has a lot to do with scrambling.If guys run bad routes and don't create separation, the QB can't (or shouldn't) throw them the ball. When that happens, the play gets extended.

I think we're looking at this from a slightly different angle. I would agree that ineffective receivers (or those that cannot consistently create separation) can cause scrambling, but I'm focusing specifically on Ponder and his scrambling prowess when this occurs.

Don't know about you, but I don't have to study a lot of film to know that most of the Vikings' receiving corps over the past couple of years haven't exactly been the reincarnation of Jerry Rice when it comes to route-running and separation. My best anecdotal example of this was the Tampa Bay game. I was there in the stadium in a position where I could see the plays unfold. Fans were booing Ponder unmercifully, but honestly they probably should have been booing the receivers. Nobody was running routes worth a crap. Tampa's DBs -- among the worst in the league statistically -- were blanketing our receivers with ease.

Agreed. It was pretty awful last season and I'm amazed how many people overlook or choose to ignore this fact.

That creates a lot of situations for a QB to run for his life.

Without a doubt. Unfortunately Ponder hasn't historically been great when faced with these situations. Better receivers can only help the passing game (along with his own improvement, hopefully).

[Mothman]

I think we're looking at this from a slightly different angle. I would agree that ineffective receivers (or those that cannot consistently create separation) can cause scrambling, but I'm focusing specifically on Ponder and his scrambling prowess when this occurs.

If you define scrambling as you did earlier in the thread ("a scrambling QB is a guy that can extend plays with his feet, make defenders miss behind the LOS and then throw the ball downfield") then I think you already touched on the relevance of receivers to effective scrambling in that same post. The ability of the receiver to work back towards the QB and find an opening can clearly impact a QB's ability to finish a scramble by completing a pass downfield. In other words, ineffective receivers can not only be the catalyst for a scramble, if they don't come back to the QB and get open at some point when a play breaks down, the QB doesn't have anywhere to go with the ball even if he extends the play.

Agreed. It was pretty awful last season and I'm amazed how many people overlook or choose to ignore this fact.

Maybe some of them just don't want to see it?

[dead_poet]

The ability of the receiver to work back towards the QB and find an opening can clearly impact a QB's ability to finish a scramble by completing a pass downfield. In other words, ineffective receivers can not only be the catalyst for a scramble, if they don't come back to the QB and get open at some point when a play breaks down, the QB doesn't have anywhere to go with the ball even if he extends the play.

Agreed. My difficulty in evaluating is not having film to focus on if our receivers are adept at this or not. Did they quit on the play? Was their effort lackluster? Did they instead try blocking if they thought Ponder was going to run? Were they just incompetent in not working back to the ball? Were they trying hard but lacking the necessary athleticism or awareness of soft spots in coverage? Or was Ponder unable to see/hit them? Statistically, Ponder is not a good scrambler, though he is above average at throwing on the run. It makes me wonder why he's so poor when scrambling. Whatever the case, I just don't think the comparison between him and Tark has much merit. Hopefully he improves on this area (actually, hopefully the receiver can create consistent separation and the line can pass protect adequately enough so that he doesn't NEED to scramble much, if ever).

[UltraNasty850]

Dont call me crazy, but I have watched plenty of old Tarkenton videos. Ponder and Tarkenton look freakishly similar on the field. The way they run around and how they throw the ball is very similar.

[Mothman]

Agreed. My difficulty in evaluating is not having film to focus on if our receivers are adept at this or not. Did they quit on the play? Was their effort lackluster? Did they instead try blocking if they thought Ponder was going to run? Were they just incompetent in not working back to the ball? Were they trying hard but lacking the necessary athleticism or awareness of soft spots in coverage? Or was Ponder unable to see/hit them? Statistically, Ponder is not a good scrambler, though he is above average at throwing on the run. It makes me wonder why he's so poor when scrambling. Whatever the case, I just don't think the comparison between him and Tark has much merit. Hopefully he improves on this area (actually, hopefully the receiver can create consistent separation and the line can pass protect adequately enough so that he doesn't NEED to scramble much, if ever).

I prefer that last scenario.

From what I saw last year, just about all of the above was happening. There were plays where Ponder scrambled and had nowhere to go with the ball because receivers weren't reacting accordingly and coming back to him. There were some scrambles that actually worked. There were some where a receiver did get free and Ponder didn't see him. Like many of the other issues with the passing game, everybody seemed to contribute to the problem. Overall, though, I'd say the WRs did a poor job of reacting and giving Ponder a target when plays broke down.

FWIW, Ponder has never reminded me much of Tarkenton but admittedly, I haven't given the comparison much thought in the past either.

[King James]

Dont call me crazy, but I have watched plenty of old Tarkenton videos. Ponder and Tarkenton look freakishly similar on the field. The way they run around and how they throw the ball is very similar.

I think that have similar abilities when it comes to throwing the ball. Because Tarkenton didn't have a arm either. Now when it comes to running that is completely different. Tarkenton would run 40 yards back , run circles in the backfield, and still manage to get off a pass before getting sacked. Ponder needs to improve when throwing while moving his feet. He has those play action rolls out to perfection but when it comes to just trying to scramble out of pressure and make a play, he still needs work in that area. Other than that I agree that they do have some similar abilities.