If we keep Harvin...

[Mothman]

I don't think getting them on the field together should be too hard, especially since Harvin sometimes lines up in the backfield. Even when Harvin is playing receiver, one of then could line up at flanker and one in the slot, with someone else (hopefully a talented new Viking) lining up at split end.

I don't have anything particularly creative to offer in terms of creating mismatches. I'll leave that to Musgrave.

Jim

[mansquatch]

The real interesting point on this is what happens when Both Harvin and AP are on the field together and healthy. If a team stacks the LOS like GB did in teh playoffs then Harvin will destroy them with the short passing game. If they stack more in an effort to stop him then JW or KR are going to eat them up in the mid level passing game. If we acquire a legit outside WR it is going to be a very daunting task. One of the three will have a favorable matchup on any given down, then it will be up to Ponder to be the field general and get the ball to the player the defense is unable to contain.

JW and PH have breakaway speed, my guess is puting a healthy PH on the field with a healthy AP on this team means AP breaks Dickerson's record.

[PurpleMustReign]

Harvin and AD in the same backfield would be BEAST.

But if we sign a legit outside threat (heck even a healthy Simpson) it could do wonders for this offense.

[Mothman]

Harvin and AD in the same backfield would be BEAST.

But if we sign a legit outside threat (heck even a healthy Simpson) it could do wonders for this offense.

They have to find that outside threat, otherwise they'll remain too easy to defend. I use that word loosely since AD obviously wasn't easy to defend last season but as much as I like him and as much as he brings to the offense, the Vikings are only going to get so many points per game out of their running game. Their perimeter offense was practically non-existent most of last season. Rudolph's a good TE but he has not shown much ability to get separation and consequently, will only draw so much attention on seams and other intermediate-to-deep routes. Harvin's a terrific weapon but to some extent, his touches need to be manufactured and he's much more effective in the short-to-medium range. Bringing an extra defender into the box helps defend against Peterson, Harvin and Rudolph, which is why it's so crucial for the Vikings to on the outside. If they can do that it should open up the middle and make it much easier for those 3 playmakers. If they can't, teams will continue to feel too comfortable focusing on the middle and bringing an extra defender up into the box.

That's my take anyway...

[VikingLord]

They have to find that outside threat, otherwise they'll remain too easy to defend. I use that word loosely since AD obviously wasn't easy to defend last season but as much as I like him and as much as he brings to the offense, the Vikings are only going to get so many points per game out of their running game. Their perimeter offense was practically non-existent most of last season. Rudolph's a good TE but he has not shown much ability to get separation and consequently, will only draw so much attention on seams and other intermediate-to-deep routes. Harvin's a terrific weapon but to some extent, his touches need to be manufactured and he's much more effective in the short-to-medium range. Bringing an extra defender into the box helps defend against Peterson, Harvin and Rudolph, which is why it's so crucial for the Vikings to on the outside. If they can do that it should open up the middle and make it much easier for those 3 playmakers. If they can't, teams will continue to feel too comfortable focusing on the middle and bringing an extra defender up into the box.

That's my take anyway...

I wonder how much of the lack of an "outside" threat is scheme? I mean, it really seems like on the majority of plays the Vikings offense is in pretty tight and Musgrave seems to like it that way. I don't know if the bunched alignments make it easier to conceal whether the play is a run or a pass, or easier to block as there are more offensive players in tight, but it sure seems like a high percentage of offensive snaps come in tightly-bunched alignments, which are necessarily going to be harder to go deep on, at least with the sort of fly patterns that are most often associated with "outside" threats.

I think the real question here is not whether the Vikes look at an outside speedster at WR, but whether what they lack is the sort of bigger, ball control type of WR who has an excellent vertical and wins a majority of his share of jump balls. That's not necessarily the same thing as a guy who can blaze down the field and beat coverage deep. In fact, between Wright and Harvin I'd say they already have 2 guys who can get open deep consistently and who are threats in that aspect of the game. What they lack is the sort of presence a guy like Cris Carter or Sidney Rice gave them. Rudolph has that skillset to some degree, but so far defenses have been able to largely neutralize him, perhaps by showing Ponder certain looks that cause Ponder to go elsewhere with the ball even if he could lob it up to Rudolph.

I guess the point is, if the Vikes need a bigger, ball-control type at WR (which I think is the real need, not a "deep threat"), then a guy like Justin Hunter makes perfect sense, and they can probably snag him with their 2nd rounder. Hunter not only has size, but he's actually a decent runner as well (I think he clocked 4.41 at the Combine), so that might be the right guy to solve the "outside threat" problem.

[PacificNorseWest]

Should not be hard at all. With Harvin's versatility, they could do so many different things with that combo. Jarius may even be more effective with the added attention to AP and Harvin, Wright should be able to spring open quite a bit.

[Eli]

If we end up keeping Harvin this year, does anyone have any creative ideas for getting both Harvin and Wright on the field at the same time?

Join a midget league?

[Mothman]

I wonder how much of the lack of an "outside" threat is scheme? I mean, it really seems like on the majority of plays the Vikings offense is in pretty tight and Musgrave seems to like it that way. I don't know if the bunched alignments make it easier to conceal whether the play is a run or a pass, or easier to block as there are more offensive players in tight, but it sure seems like a high percentage of offensive snaps come in tightly-bunched alignments, which are necessarily going to be harder to go deep on, at least with the sort of fly patterns that are most often associated with "outside" threats.

Personally, I suspect the lack of talent on the outside had a substantial influence on the play design and playcalling.

I'm obviously no expert but my understanding is that bunch formations are intended to influence the defensive alignment. Reducing the split of the outside of receivers helps keep teams in zone or combination coverages because the threat of a pick from a bunch formation makes it very dangerous to run man coverage on all the receivers.

As far as tight formations go, I imagine the main purpose is to disguise intent in an offense that clearly likes to run the ball. Of course, they may have been an effort to help the less-than-stellar receiving corps get open too. I'm not sure why such formations would make it harder to go deep. As long as the receiver gets a clean release, he should still be able to get deep.

I think the real question here is not whether the Vikes look at an outside speedster at WR, but whether what they lack is the sort of bigger, ball control type of WR who has an excellent vertical and wins a majority of his share of jump balls. That's not necessarily the same thing as a guy who can blaze down the field and beat coverage deep.

Agreed but either type of receiver is an outside threat and outside threat doesn't necessarily mean deep threat.

In fact, between Wright and Harvin I'd say they already have 2 guys who can get open deep consistently and who are threats in that aspect of the game.

I don't see the consistency, although Wright made a few nice plays deep. Personally, I don't think it's a strength at all for Harvin, which isn't to say he can't get open or make some plays down the field. I just don't see either player as an exceptional deep threat at this point. I'd call them average deep threats in NFL terms but "average" is more than we got from the other Vikings WRs as deep threats last season.

I guess the point is, if the Vikes need a bigger, ball-control type at WR (which I think is the real need, not a "deep threat"), then a guy like Justin Hunter makes perfect sense, and they can probably snag him with their 2nd rounder. Hunter not only has size, but he's actually a decent runner as well (I think he clocked 4.41 at the Combine), so that might be the right guy to solve the "outside threat" problem.

It might be, although I still think they would be better off with 2 bigger receivers on the outside, even if one is a true deep threat and the other is a big-bodied possession receiver. I like Wright's game but I don't think the Vikes should just settle for him as one of their starting outside starters. Right now, I see him as a player that should be in the mix to start at WR, not as a definitive answer at the flanker position.

[Mothman]

Can you guys see any benefit to sliding Rudolph off tackle and putting PH, JW, or both in the slot beside him? I could see Percy being very effective "pulling" on sweep plays and power running plays to his side of the field in such a scenario. JW and KR ought to be able to double team the OLB or DE to seal the edge. I don't know, I'm just trying to come up with something, especially if we don't have a prototypical #1 WR.

I'd rather just put Ellison out there to do that. He'd get a better block than Percy, who's a little undersized for the job.

[headless_norseman]

I've seen a couple of projections with the Vikes taking Keenan Allen.

Harvin, Wright and Allen and we have something. Now if Ponder can ponder on how to figure it out.




23. Minnesota Vikings: Keenan Allen, WR, Cal. Allen missed the combine because his knee injury from last year flared up recently. The plan is for him to have an individual pro day in early April, and if that goes well, it would be easy to see the Vikings pulling the trigger on another target for Christian Ponder, especially if Percy Harvin is on the way out. Allen is an ideal receiver for a quarterback who doesn't have a big arm (as Ponder does not) -- he's very dynamic after the catch, has better speed than some think, and plays with a lot of toughness.



http://sports.yahoo.com/blogs/nfl-shutd ... --nfl.html

[mansquatch]

I think the lack of outside passing game in the first half of the season had as much to do with Ponder as it did with the likes of Jenkins. Harvin is very capable of getting the ball on the outside, we saw him get the deep ball early on, just not very often. JW is showing flashes of the downfield ability. Both are players that are shifty, but also have legit speed. Neither is very tall. My point here is that if late 2012 season Ponder is throwing the ball we’ll see more downfield throws from the get go. I think the lack of long passes to PH was by design due to his open field ability, but also due to concerns about Ponder. We saw more of those stretch plays in the last part of the season and they were some of the best balls we’ve seen out of Ponder. I think that this “leash” will be looser in 2013 unless Ponder goes Mr. Hyde on us again.

I’ve made this point before, but the timing of the injury to PH came at the start of CP’s slump. By the time Ponder righted his ship, PH was on IR. Likewise, AP really didn’t go into Beast mode until the last 8 games. The point here is that we haven’t seen what this offense can do when all the critical pieces are healthy because they were not all healthy at the same time. Also, when people say our WR are the worst in the league, they are referring to the post PH group. PH was on an MVP pace before he went down, any WR group that contains an MVP candidate is far from the worst in the NFL. (I agree there is garbage on the depth chart)

This all makes me take a more restrained view of the WR situation than some. They need a true #1, but beyond that, if they keep Simpson their stable isn’t that terrible. Consider, if your base set is new #1, PH, and KR you have a new outside guy, a potential league MVP, and a pro bowl caliber TE. That is not a bad set of pass catchers. If PH leaves, the situation gets markedly worse, but if it stays, what is not to like?

Out side of the #1 guy on the outside, I do not see them investing early picks at WR unless there is a BPA that is too good to resist. (which is possible in this draft.) I really want to see them get a solid starting NT. The position is critical to our scheme when it comes to run stopping and we haven’t had one since Big Pat retired. In this draft there is opportunity to get that guy. Likewise, OL is deep, especially interior OL, so that is another place where we can make a team strength even stronger. LB wouldn’t hurt either and they always need more DBs.

[Mothman]

I think the lack of outside passing game in the first half of the season had as much to do with Ponder as it did with the likes of Jenkins. Harvin is very capable of getting the ball on the outside, we saw him get the deep ball early on, just not very often. JW is showing flashes of the downfield ability. Both are players that are shifty, but also have legit speed. Neither is very tall. My point here is that if late 2012 season Ponder is throwing the ball we’ll see more downfield throws from the get go. I think the lack of long passes to PH was by design due to his open field ability, but also due to concerns about Ponder. We saw more of those stretch plays in the last part of the season and they were some of the best balls we’ve seen out of Ponder. I think that this “leash” will be looser in 2013 unless Ponder goes Mr. Hyde on us again.

I don't think it's just a question of long passes or downfield ability. That's part of it but the main issue is the outside threat and I mean that literally: a threat to make plays that lines up on the outside, a player that represents a mismatch in single coverage, a player who can draw attention away from the inside where Harvin's in the slot, Rudolph is lined up at TE and Peterson is running. Sure, Harvin is capable of making catches on the outside but that doesn't address the problem because Harvin doesn't play outside most of the time, he plays in the slot. Simpson and Jenkins weren't worrying anyone and Wright was only effective periodically. They need someone outside who beats single coverage on a much more regular basis and consequently, forces defenses to make tougher choices. That's not Rudolph or Harvin. It may be Wright but it's definitely not yet.

I’ve made this point before, but the timing of the injury to PH came at the start of CP’s slump. By the time Ponder righted his ship, PH was on IR. Likewise, AP really didn’t go into Beast mode until the last 8 games. The point here is that we haven’t seen what this offense can do when all the critical pieces are healthy because they were not all healthy at the same time.

They were all healthy at the same time, just not for long. Ponder's slump began a few weeks before Harvin was injured and Peterson posted 3 consecutive 100+ yard rushing performances in Harvin's last 3 games of the season.

[Eli]

It's not just a question of long passes or downfield ability. That's part of it but the main issue is the outside threat and I mean that literally: a threat to make plays that lines up on the outside, a player that represents a mismatch in single coverage, a player who can draw attention away from the inside where Harvin's in the slot, Rudolph is lined up at TE and Peterson is running.

It's not the _main_ issue, unless you take it for granted that the Vikings operate a run-first offense because they want to. They currently are run-first, but that's only because they've been forced into that uncomfortable situation, having little talent at either QB or WR. In 2009 they certainly weren't a run-first team, and I don't imagine many teams in 2013 would elect to be.

[Mothman]

It's not the _main_ issue, unless you take it for granted that the Vikings operate a run-first offense because they want to. They currently are run-first, but that's only because they've been forced into that uncomfortable situation, having little talent at either QB or WR. In 2009 they certainly weren't a run-first team, and I don't imagine many teams in 2013 would elect to be.

I think they want to have a balanced offense with a strong running game at it's core and the main ingredient they're lacking to achieve that balance is arguably an outside threat. It would certainly help them get closer to a more balanced attack. That's taking Ponder out of the discussion, of course, but we know he's the incumbent starter and there's no indication that will change...

[losperros]

I think they want to have a balanced offense with a strong running game at it's core and the main ingredient they're lacking to achieve that balance is arguably an outside threat. It would certainly help them get closer to a more balanced attack. That's taking Ponder out of the discussion, of course, but we know he's the incumbent starter and there's no indication that will change...

My guess is the Vikings are going to do exactly what you're suggesting. I think they'll take a shot at getting a more balanced offense by acquiring a Wide Receiver from the draft that can get deep and also make big catches anywhere on the field. In fact, I'm thinking the Vikings might even draft two WRs in an effort to give their receiving corps a booster shot of talent.

Regarding the original subject, if the Vikings retain both Harvin and Wright (and I still believe they will), I see no problem in playing both at the same time. Harvin not only can line up as a RB but he's a superb slot receiver. Wright not only is a good slot receiver but he can be a wide out, which is something he did oftentimes for the Razorbacks. Wright also is a very good downfield threat. I think we'll see him utilized that way more frequently next season. As for Harvin, he's an all-around offensive machine. I don't care who you put out there with Harvin, there is always a way to utilize his skills.