Vikings Off-Season Decisions

[jackal]

I agree except for Loadholt .. too many penalties and takes plays off at times still

[PurpleHalo]

A fan can hope

Those days are gone, was fun, lets let it go with one final teer. Lets find the next AJ Green.

[PurpleHalo]

who would you have picked over Ponder?

Are you saying the massive reach, for Ponder@12, was a sound move? After Locker, who I wanted, was gone, and the equally massive reach for Gabbert. I wanted Dalton, but this team needs to scout QBs better. I mean, are they letting their kids scout QBs? Look at all the decent QBs, other teams find. This is unacceptable, to be this inept. Kaepernik, Wilson, Cousins, teams are finding QBs who can play, the Vikings wasted number 12 on a game manager. If they can't achieve more competant scouting than this, said scouts need to be fired. Because other teams, are locating QBs, who may have had this team playing deeper into January.

Not to mention, Ponder had elbow issues in college, and thats what kept him from playing in Green Bay. Injuries happen sure, but it's an eye opener, that it was the elbow again. That alone, should have gave them pause in the 11 draft. Again, the scouting needs to be held accountable, seems subpar, in the Vikings biggest area of need.

[Mothman]

Not to mention, Ponder had elbow issues in college, and thats what kept him from playing in Green Bay.

That's not what kept him from playing in Green Bay. A triceps injury that was initially mis-reported as an elbow injury kept from playing in Green Bay.

[smoothoperator]

dalton would do nothing with this team, if he didnt have aj green, he would be as bad as gabbert. if we make the right moves offensively ( OL and WR) we could be giving the nfc north trouble for a long time coming.

[MrPurplenGold]

[[quote="PurpleHalo"][quote="MrPurplenGold"]
who would you have picked over Ponder?
[/quote]

Are you saying the massive reach, for Ponder@12, was a sound move[/quote]


I'm saying there wasn't anyone else worth picking at that position. QBs are over drafted because of their value to a team. the talent base of first round of the 2011 draft overall just wasn't very good

my question for you was with who was available after ponder who would you have picked and you can say Dalton but he would have been just as big of a reach as ponder

[HardcoreVikesFan]

I really hope Geoff Scwartz gets resigned. Fusco must not be allowed to start next year whatsoever. He was abysmal. Geoff was a much better player than Fusco and it really upset me that Geoff was not starting.

Charlie Johnson was not the best this season but he was a hell of a lot better than Fusco.

Ultimately, I hope the Vikings get two new guards this offseason. I haven't seen who the guards in FA will be, but I heard Andy Levietre could be available. I would hope Minnesota would jump on him if he is available. As far as the draft goes for guards, Jon Cooper out of UNC would be a good pick in the first round. Barrett Jones could be an option as well.

[PurpleHalo]

[
I'm saying there wasn't anyone else worth picking at that position. QBs are over drafted because of their value to a team. the talent base of first round of the 2011 draft overall just wasn't very good

my question for you was with who was available after ponder who would you have picked and you can say Dalton but he would have been just as big of a reach as ponder

Ponder was way more of a reach, no other team would have touched him before round 3. Not an NFL arm. This is Dilfer, you need a big time defense, to win it all with him. Put that arm in Chicago, we've seen the results, try New York in January, sorry, no go. And if a QB wasn't worth it at 12, who knows. After Jj Watt went at 11, nothing impresses me, even in hindsight. Crappy class, outside of the first 7 and Watt, first round was icky.

[Just Me]

Ponder was way more of a reach, no other team would have touched him before round 3.

I think that is a bit of a stretch. Just for example this article suggests he has the possibility of being great. Ironically, it talks about "Good Ponder" vs "Bad Ponder" before the Vikes drafted him. I chose this article for reference as it made these observations before he was drafted, so I give it a little more weight in determining what the opinions were before the draft than the "20/20 hindsight" evaluations.

The closest NFL QB that had similar data across the board in college with Ponder (circa 2010), including physically, is Chad Henne. There are also some Eli Manning comps in there as well. Both of them kinda make sense. I could see Ponder being "good" like Eli Manning, but not elite...just good. I also could see him struggling with flashes of really good games to get people excited...only to let them down -- like Chad Henne did.

IF Ponder becomes the "next Eli Manning" I'd be happy with the pick. Even if he doesn't, the alternative would have been to be satisfied with Donovan McNabb, Sage Rosenfels, and Joe Webb for our QB corps. Yes, we could have picked a different QB at #12 (again with hindsight) but how many people would have been bashing that pick if that selection was wrong. The fact is: the Vikings needed to draft a QB (we'd ignored it for far to long). In the end, I'd rather they "swing and strikeout" than forfeit their time at bat on a called strike 3 because the ball wasn't in the ideal position over the plate. If Ponder "strikes out" next year, we'll get another "at bat." Ponder doesn't have to hit a "home run" for this team (that's AD's job). He just needs a base hit to keep things going.

(Apologies for the excessive baseball metaphors on a football forum)

[Mothman]

You should go back and do more research. Ponder was never projected any lower than a 2nd round from the beginning of his senior year. His stock dropped a little due to injuries but then it shot back up after the Senior Bowl MVP.

I recall Kiper projecting him as a third rounder (I don't know if that was his final projection, just something he said) but nobody else. Injuries definitely dropped his stick and he was widely projected as a late first round or a second round pick. There's no doubt that the Vikings drafted him higher than projected but the idea that no other team would have touched him before round 3 has absolutely no sound basis.

No doubt Ponder was a reach but I hate people making these baseless claims that he was a 3rd or 4th round prospect. We took him about 20-30 picks too high, not 2 or 3 rounds. If we take Dalton (who also woulda been a reach) or some other position it's highly unlikely Ponder gets passed Washington at 41 and as I said before they may have took him as high as 16, which could be why the Vikings thought they had to reach for him.

Well said. The idea that his arm strength was the reason no team would supposedly touch him until R3 doesn't hold up under scrutiny. It's hyperbole so let's put an end to it now. Ponder's arm strength was widely viewed as NFL-caliber but not elite. Here's some 2011 pre-draft analysis culled from a quick Google search that supports both the second round projections and the analysis of arm strength. These weren't cherry picked. I just went from one search result to another and they all thought Ponder had an "NFL arm".

http://www.nfl.com/draft/2011/profiles/ ... id=2495215

Has enough arm strength but doesn't put elite zip on the ball and will try to fit it into too many tight spots downfield. Ponder has slowly climbed up boards, and he is almost certain to go in the second round.

Rob Rang:
http://www.cbssports.com/nfl/draft/play ... al/1116559

Arm Strength: Doesn't own a Matthew Stafford-type howitzer, but has plenty of arm strength to make every NFL throw. Good zip on underneath routes; showcasing enough drive to push the ball through tight windows for the quick slant. Good timing and accuracy make up for a lack of a dominant arm for the deep-out. Effective deep-ball thrower; able to launch the ball 50-plus yards with velocity and trajectory.

Mike Mayock:
http://blogs.nfl.com/2011/04/28/mayock- ... on-ponder/

When I look at Ponder, who has a slightly above average arm and good feet, he’s smart and a good leader.

http://www.sportsagentblog.com/about/ch ... t-profile/

His arm strength seems to be good enough but not great.

I have him valued as a sure fire second rounder and that appears to be where he will go in the 2011 NFL Draft.

http://gridironexperts.com/nfl-draft-pr ... ian-ponder

Ponder has great zip on his throws, can lead a receiver with fluid rhythm, or hit you on a 50 yard over the shoulder rainbow.
Currently with the high demand for quarterbacks, and the fact that each QB prospect seems to have his own flavor for potential bust disaster, it’s hard to predict where Christian Ponder might go. Personally, I think Christian Ponder would be an excellent 2nd round selection who could thrive learning for a season on the sidelines.

More:
http://forum.walterfootball.com/showthr ... ian-Ponder
http://draftbreakdown.com/scouting-repo ... ian-ponder

[Texas Vike]

The closest NFL QB that had similar data across the board in college with Ponder (circa 2010), including physically, is Chad Henne. There are also some Eli Manning comps in there as well. Both of them kinda make sense. I could see Ponder being "good" like Eli Manning, but not elite...just good. I also could see him struggling with flashes of really good games to get people excited...only to let them down -- like Chad Henne did.

IF Ponder becomes the "next Eli Manning" I'd be happy with the pick. Even if he doesn't, the alternative would have been to be satisfied with Donovan McNabb, Sage Rosenfels, and Joe Webb for our QB corps. Yes, we could have picked a different QB at #12 (again with hindsight) but how many people would have been bashing that pick if that selection was wrong. The fact is: the Vikings needed to draft a QB (we'd ignored it for far to long). In the end, I'd rather they "swing and strikeout" than forfeit their time at bat on a called strike 3 because the ball wasn't in the ideal position over the plate. If Ponder "strikes out" next year, we'll get another "at bat." Ponder doesn't have to hit a "home run" for this team (that's AD's job). He just needs a base hit to keep things going.

(Apologies for the excessive baseball metaphors on a football forum) [/quote]

Solid post.

I read the article you linked and found it very interesting that Ponder's tendency to have an "evil twin" was diagnosed from his college days. The most interesting observations were:
1.
"Christian Ponder is a statistical anomaly in our system analysis. We actually have Christian Ponder rated twice in our system. There is the very accurate, potentially good/great projecting forward Christian Ponder...and then his "evil-twin" QB, a less accurate, little more turnover prone Christian Ponder -- one who projects to be an NFL flop based on the data."

2." Based on his 2009 Junior season in our grading system, Ponder is a borderline future "very good" QB with a chance to be very good/NFL elite. Based on his 2010 Senior season stats, Ponder would be considered a likely NFL mediocre or likely NFL "wash out" from our system."

We've certainly seen both of these Ponders. I suppose our draft scouts saw and fell in love with the good twin. Hopefully they can figure out how to coax that one to take over, leaving the injury-prone turn-over machine in the past.

[mansquatch]

If Ponder had a noodle arm then why did he make perfect throws on deep bombs to both JW and DA late in the season? Could it be that his off deep throws were not a result of poor arm strength, but a result of bad mechanics? Maybe I’m too easy to convince, but that settles the topic for me.

[Dark]

If Ponder had a noodle arm then why did he make perfect throws on deep bombs to both JW and DA late in the season? Could it be that his off deep throws were not a result of poor arm strength, but a result of bad mechanics? Maybe I’m too easy to convince, but that settles the topic for me.

I agree. I think most of the times he underthrew a ball on a deep throw was because of his footwork, mechanics, etc. I don't think his arm strength was the issue.

[Demi]

I like how most of the scouting reports have some caveat about his "adequate" arm strength. Could it be mechanical? Sure. But it's still an issue regardless of why. And it's been an issue for years. Two years into his NFL career and it's still an issue.

I'm sure sick of 6'2 "West Coast" Quarterbacks with "adequate" arms and "athleticism".

How about we look at the QBs left in the playoffs? 6'4, 6'4, 6'4, 6'6. And only one of them is closer to a 4.0 than a 5.0. And it's his first year. How many years have tall pocket passer with more then adequate arm strength stood tall in the pocket and went through there reads to get to, and win, playoff games? Part of this teams struggles is it's strict adherence to the "system" in many cases regardless of actual overall talent and results!

[HardcoreVikesFan]

I like how most of the scouting reports have some caveat about his "adequate" arm strength. Could it be mechanical? Sure. But it's still an issue regardless of why. And it's been an issue for years. Two years into his NFL career and it's still an issue.

I'm sure sick of 6'2 "West Coast" Quarterbacks with "adequate" arms and "athleticism".

How about we look at the QBs left in the playoffs? 6'4, 6'4, 6'4, 6'6. And only one of them is closer to a 4.0 than a 5.0. And it's his first year. How many years have tall pocket passer with more then adequate arm strength stood tall in the pocket and went through there reads to get to, and win, playoff games? Part of this teams struggles is it's strict adherence to the "system" in many cases regardless of actual overall talent and results!

Demi,

I respect you as a board member and your opinion. However, in my opinion, you have to let this prejudice against shorter QBs go man. Height is simply not indicative of NFL success at the QB position. If height was indicative of success, JaMarcus Russell would be an all-pro QB right now. Tony Pike would have stuck on an NFL roster. The examples go on and on.

To this day, I still believe that Christian Ponder was chosen as our QB because Jake Locker was drafted before we picked. Jake Locker is not simply just a west coast QB. IMO, Minnesota was not looking for a west coast QB specifically. They took Ponder because they had him as the best QB available when they picked.

Your reference to Colin Kapernick is interesting. Something tells me you would have gone ballistic if the Vikings took Colin Kapernick in the 2011 draft. I was not pleased we selected Ponder, but I did not want Kapernick at the time either. Heck, the general consensus on this board and in the NFL world was that Colin Kapernick was the rawest QB in the draft.

Like it or not, Ponder will get 2013 to prove his worth. Should he flop, I can guarantee that this team will not hesitate to find a better QB. That being said, I hope that not only Ponder succeeds, but I hope Minnesota finds a capable QB to be behind Ponder this offseason. Regardless if that QB comes via free agency or in the draft.