Vikings Off-Season Decisions

[losperros]

I would prefer if the Vikes didnt sign any FA WR. I see the team needing upgrades or depth at every position. In the draft, WR should be down on the list. I would like to see the Vikes draft heavily on defense.

WR is an extreme need for this team. Seriously, is there any doubt? If you truly want the Vikings to ignore upgrading their WR corps during the next draft, then I think you're setting yourself up for a lot of disappointment. Expect to see the Vikings draft a WR early. Who knows? They may pick one up in the free agency as well.

[mansquatch]

The more I think about it, the more I think upgrades at LB and CB will provide more bang for the draft pick (especially LB) than WR. I do not deny that we need outside WR help in a big way. My issue is best expressed with this hypothetical: If they keep everything else on the offense the same and add Larry Fitzgerald Jr. do they become an elite passing team? The answer is probably No. Ponder isn't an HOF QB.

On the other hand, what if they add a force at Mike LB? This I think gives them a much greater bang for the draft pick buck. Or what about a force at NT? I think we'll see them go DL or LB in the 1st round unless a BPA WR is available. More importantly, I think getting better on defense will make them a better overall team.

I am not coninved they go hard on a WR in the draft. I see why everybody thinks that way, I just think they might go at it with a healthy JS, healthy PH, and a developing JW. They rarely run 4 WR.

[Mothman]

The more I think about it, the more I think upgrades at LB and CB will provide more bang for the draft pick (especially LB) than WR. I do not deny that we need outside WR help in a big way. My issue is best expressed with this hypothetical: If they keep everything else on the offense the same and add Larry Fitzgerald Jr. do they become an elite passing team? The answer is probably No. Ponder isn't an HOF QB.

Would they become an elite passing team? I don't know. However, I have no doubt that would make them a better passing team and it might help Ponder get a LOT closer to becoming a great QB. Look at it this way: if they don't improve at WR, Ponder has no chance to become great, none at all. It simply won't happen.

On the other hand, what if they add a force at Mike LB? This I think gives them a much greater bang for the draft pick buck. Or what about a force at NT? I think we'll see them go DL or LB in the 1st round unless a BPA WR is available. More importantly, I think getting better on defense will make them a better overall team.

I think anything that makes them better makes them a better overall team.

I am not coninved they go hard on a WR in the draft. I see why everybody thinks that way, I just think they might go at it with a healthy JS, healthy PH, and a developing JW. They rarely run 4 WR.

If they take that approach I'll consider it absolutely inexcusable. They don't just get one draft pick. They aren't facing a choice between adding talent at either LB or WR. They can and must do both. Simpson wasn't healthy this season and there's no guarantee he'll be healthy next year or that he'll be any better even if he isn't hampered by injury. He had one impressive season in Cincy and was a serious bust for the Vikes this season. Bringing him back and giving him another shot would be understandable. Counting on him would be foolish.

I like Wright and I'm hoping he will develop into a real force for the Vikes but right now, he's just an average NFL receiver.

As Craig said above, WR is an extreme need for this team. If they want Ponder to succeed and if they are serious about building a Super Bowl contender, they have to field a better WR corps. It's absolutely essential. They need to add enough talent that players like Burton and Aromashodu wouldn't have a prayer of making the team and players like Simpson and Wright will have to compete hard and prove they deserve to be on the field instead of their teammates. The only reason Simpson was able to go out and disappoint us week after week in 2012 was because they literally didn't have a better option. That can't continue.

[PurpleKoolaid]

How will a great WR help when an average at best QB, who panics at the slightest pressure, and doesnt know how to move around i the pocket, still wont have the time to get him the ball? Some please explain that to me. Did you see the time some of the teams this weekend gave their QB? A solid OLINE is KEY! We dont have one.

The D isnt our biggest problem. Their being on the field too often cause the I cant convert is. I cant believe im the only one seeing this.

[mansquatch]

Moth, semantics my friend. I’m not saying they should stay the same at WR, I believe they absolutely need to improve at this position. My case is more to ask can they improve with what is on the roster? I think there is a reasonable case to be made based on expectation that they can improve with existing personnel. It most certainly isn’t a sure thing, but the point is that whether or not they SHOULD rely on JS is different than saying relying on him IS an option. If the FO believes (for whatever reason) that JS is going to be much better in 2013 than 2012 that might equal improvement at WR. If they think JW is going to be much better in 2013 then that also equals improvement. Finally, if they think Carlson will come back and have a better season for them in 2013, that too is improvement.

I see where you are coming from and I agree they need to improve. My point is that if they think these guys are going to improve and be the answers they need, then spending a high pick or a big $$ FA signing might be detrimental to the team. (Assuming the FO is right)

Now, I will be the first to admit that we as fans do not have access to any information that would make us believe the above outcomes are even potentially possible. We also do not have info that says it isn’t, we just have what we saw on the field and the guys listed above did not show much of anything on the field last season. That is why I say “I get it” with regards to the desire to replace. My take is just that by replace you guys really mean improve.

To me the whole adding bodies thing has some potential road blocks: They attempted to address this issue last season by drafting two WR, signing FA WR JS, and signing FA TE JC. If they keep PH, RE, & KR that puts them at 4 WR and 3 TE, plus Jenkins, Aroma, and Burton. Now we have to start asking questions: Do they cut JC? I think they won’t. Only costs them ~$2MM to keep him one more season, plus Spielman has indicated that is the direction he wants to go. Safe to say the other two TE are safe. PH and JW are not going anywhere. So do they bring back JS? Ponder is lobbying for this, but the jury is out. I think he’ll be back. Childs is a wild card, but unless he is completely finished physically, it is fair to presume they’ll bring him back. The gets us to four WR on a team that wants to play 2 TE. We could potentially carry 6 WR, so there is room to bring in a guy or two, but I’m also not 100% sold on Jenkins getting the axe. They need talent so it could go at the #6 spot or it could cost Jenkins his job.

I made a post last week about the timing of injuries to the WR. Last season we never saw a healthy AP/PH/KR/JS on the field together. So a fair question to ask is IF those guys are all healthy, does that entail improvement at WR? I think it does, your point about RELYING on that not withstanding. The relying thing is really the big issue IMO. If the Vikings FO think they can rely or are willing to risk a season on relying on these guys, then it opens the door to them drafting defense. Another issue with adding WR is that PH and AP are going to get their touches. So will KR. So this “other guy” is going to be sharing his touches. That to me points towards a JS type player.

I look at all of that and that is how I think they might perceive getting a lot more bang for the draft pick out of Defensive Players.

[Mothman]

Moth, semantics my friend. I’m not saying they should stay the same at WR, I believe they absolutely need to improve at this position. My case is more to ask can they improve with what is on the roster? I think there is a reasonable case to be made based on expectation that they can improve with existing personnel. It most certainly isn’t a sure thing, but the point is that whether or not they SHOULD rely on JS is different than saying relying on him IS an option.

I guess that's where we disagree. I don't believe relying on him is a legitimate option, at least not an option that should reasonably be considered. His performance in 2012 should take that option off the table. I think it would be tough to make a reasonable case for going into next season expecting to improve with the talent that's currently on the roster at WR. It's not impossible but after this season, I believe it would be irresponsible for the Vikings to take that approach.

Now, I will be the first to admit that we as fans do not have access to any information that would make us believe the above outcomes are even potentially possible. We also do not have info that says it isn’t, we just have what we saw on the field and the guys listed above did not show much of anything on the field last season. That is why I say “I get it” with regards to the desire to replace. My take is just that by replace you guys really mean improve.

I mean replace and improve. Wright should stick around. They drafted him to develop him and he's off to a nice start. Harvin should stick around. He's good. The effort to replace and upgrade the rest must be there. If Simpson is on the roster next year there should only be two reasons for it:

1.) He plays much, much better in camp and preseason than he did during this regular season or
2.) They seriously fail in their efforts to do better, which would be very disappointing.

To me the whole adding bodies thing has some potential road blocks: They attempted to address this issue last season by drafting two WR, signing FA WR JS, and signing FA TE JC. If they keep PH, RE, & KR that puts them at 4 WR and 3 TE, plus Jenkins, Aroma, and Burton. Now we have to start asking questions: Do they cut JC? I think they won’t. Only costs them ~$2MM to keep him one more season, plus Spielman has indicated that is the direction he wants to go. Safe to say the other two TE are safe. PH and JW are not going anywhere. So do they bring back JS? Ponder is lobbying for this, but the jury is out. I think he’ll be back. Childs is a wild card, but unless he is completely finished physically, it is fair to presume they’ll bring him back. The gets us to four WR on a team that wants to play 2 TE. We could potentially carry 6 WR, so there is room to bring in a guy or two, but I’m also not 100% sold on Jenkins getting the axe. They need talent so it could go at the #6 spot or it could cost Jenkins his job.

I don't see Carlson or the other TEs as part of this equation. The Vikes are likely to carry at least 5 WRs regardless of what they do at TE and none of the TEs have contracts that serve as potential roadblocks to improvement at WR. Childs isn't a roadblock either. If he's healthy and proves worth keeping because he upgrades the receiving corps, that helps solve the problem. If he's not healthy or can't play well enough to be an upgrade, put him on IR (if hurt) or cut him. Right now, he's a low-cost long-shot, nothing more. That's a harsh assessment but I don't think it's inaccurate.

I'm not saying players like Simpson, Jenkins and Childs don't deserve a chance to prove themselves. I'm saying none of them can be counted on (if the Vikings want to get better on the outside) and it would be foolish to treat them as if that wasn't true. I have no problem with giving them an opportunity to make the team but the Vikings absolutely must bring in a batch of receivers with the potential to be significantly better than those players were this year. If the top outside receiver for the Vikings has 40 catches for 449 yards and 2 TDs next year (that was Jenkins' production this season) it will mean the FO has failed to address the area of the team that is arguably in greatest need of improvement.

I made a post last week about the timing of injuries to the WR. Last season we never saw a healthy AP/PH/KR/JS on the field together. So a fair question to ask is IF those guys are all healthy, does that entail improvement at WR? I think it does, your point about RELYING on that not withstanding. The relying thing is really the big issue IMO. If the Vikings FO think they can rely or are willing to risk a season on relying on these guys, then it opens the door to them drafting defense. Another issue with adding WR is that PH and AP are going to get their touches. So will KR. So this “other guy” is going to be sharing his touches. That to me points towards a JS type player.

Why? Simpson was a complete bust this year. He was awful. The Vikings already risked a season relying on him and he let them down in a big way. He mustered 26 catches for 274 yards in 10 games and never caught a TD. Counting on him next year as they did going into this year would simply be unacceptable.

I don't see why touches are even a consideration. The goal is team improvement and a better offense should mean more sustained drives and consequently, enough touches to go around.

[Cliff]

How many times did Ponder have time this year and got sacked or ran because no one got separation? It works both ways.

Also there are times where a great WR could bail out a sub par QB. Look at how many times Rice did it for Favre in '09? Not saying Favre was sub par, but still.

Or look at what Megatron does for Matthew Stafford constantly.

[Mothman]

Mansquatch, I apologize for being verbose but as you can see, I'm pretty passionate about the need for the Vikings to get much, much better at WR. I think doing so will not only make them a better team but will give Ponder a better opportunity to improve while also making it a bit easier to evaluate his performance. I don't want them to neglect other areas of need because there are plenty but between free agency and the draft, I think they will have opportunities to address quite a few needs and upgrade in a number of key areas that need improvement.

[chicagopurple]

Loadholt is a drive-killing Penalty Machine......He needs to be replaced...he has had enough time to show his worth and I don't see it. How Many motion penalties did he have this year? I lost count after the first 1000.......

We Need REAL receivers...then Ponder has one year to show that he can really play QB with the crutch of having the worlds best RB.....EVER.......

I don't worry too much about our Defense.....The Offense is the reason we arent playing any more ball this season.

[Mothman]

Loadholt is a drive-killing Penalty Machine......He needs to be replaced...he has had enough time to show his worth and I don't see it. How Many motion penalties did he have this year? I lost count after the first 1000.......

Well, he hasn't signed a new deal with the team yet so you may get your wish. He's definitely a frustrating, uneven performer.

[Mothman]

One more thing about the WRs: I've been thinking about this subject and how fired up it gets me and I've realized why. I've been a Vikings fan for most of my life and during the vast majority of that time, the team has had some good-to-great receivers. They had Rashad and White playing together at WR. They had Anthony Carter and Cris Carter together at one point. They had CC, Moss and Reed! They've almost always had at least one terrific receiver and there have been times where they had 2 or even 3 at once. Now they have Harvin (gifted but unconventional) and... very little else. This is during an area where the rules make it easier to pass than ever! It's just hard to take and desperately want it to change. It could extend Peterson's career, make him even better and make the whole team better.

[mansquatch]

I didn’t take it as verbose or in any way out of line.

I actually do not think we disagree that much. The key point where we differ is on whether the players who played hurt this season, most notably JS and JC, will be bigger on the field contributors in 2013 if retained and play the season healthy. If you think the answer is No, which I think you do, then your point of view makes perfect sense. If you think the answer is Yes, which I do, then my point of view is relevant.

That really is the crux of the issue. What do the coaches see in practice? I’m basing my take in part on specific mutterings we’ve heard over the season, such as Spielman saying JC will be a significant contributor over time or Frasier saying that JS wasn’t’ the same player once he hurt his back. These statements to me imply that we didn’t see everything that could be offered by these players in 2012. We saw their production when playing hurt. So yes, we cannot have that production in 2013. We agree there. But, is there healthy production the same as when they are hurt? My opinion is that it will be better. If you accept that, then the only question is how much better? If the FO answers that with a high value, then the table is set for them to seem inactive on this crucial issue.

It is the same argument for Ponder or any other young player. What is the upside? Can they develop?

[mansquatch]

[quote="chicagopurple"]Loadholt is a drive-killing Penalty Machine......He needs to be replaced...he has had enough time to show his worth and I don't see it. How Many motion penalties did he have this year? I lost count after the first 1000.......
quote]

Loadholt was pretty solid over most of the year. His last game was a disaster, no doubt about that. I think he’ll be retained as despite his issues, he is a beast in the running game and that is who the Vikings want to be. Also, if not him, then who? If he gets away they might move CJ over to that slot which compounds draft day needs. Either that or they spend more $$$ in FA than they want to replace him. In that respect his downside might work to our advantage.

[Dark]

If we signed an offensive lineman, who do you guys think we should replace?

[Mothman]

I didn’t take it as verbose or in any way out of line.

I actually do not think we disagree that much. The key point where we differ is on whether the players who played hurt this season, most notably JS and JC, will be bigger on the field contributors in 2013 if retained and play the season healthy. If you think the answer is No, which I think you do, then your point of view makes perfect sense. If you think the answer is Yes, which I do, then my point of view is relevant.

Actually, my answer wouldn't be no. It would be that they simply can't afford to take that chance.

Your point of view is relevant and I agree that improvement from within is possible. My position is simply that both JS and JC proved themselves unreliable this season. They were busts in the true sense of that term. I don't really see Carlson as part of the WR equation anyway, although I do understand that if he performed as they hoped he would, he could help make a difference in the passing game as a whole.

The ceiling of each player has to be considered too and in both cases, based on past performance, the ceiling isn't tremendously high. The Vikes have to try to do better.

That really is the crux of the issue. What do the coaches see in practice? I’m basing my take in part on specific mutterings we’ve heard over the season, such as Spielman saying JC will be a significant contributor over time or Frasier saying that JS wasn’t’ the same player once he hurt his back. These statements to me imply that we didn’t see everything that could be offered by these players in 2012. We saw their production when playing hurt. So yes, we cannot have that production in 2013. We agree there. But, is there healthy production the same as when they are hurt? My opinion is that it will be better. If you accept that, then the only question is how much better? If the FO answers that with a high value, then the table is set for them to seem inactive on this crucial issue.

Because it is a crucial issue, I just don't think Spielman can responsibly consider the table set and be inactive. It truly must be addressed. Bringing Simpson back will probably be cheap so I have no problem with that move in theory but they can't count on him. Heck, even if he matched his best season thus far as a pro (50 catches, 725 yards, 4 TDs), he wouldn't be enough to solve their issues on the outside and I doubt pairing him with Wright would do it unless Wright had a serious breakout season.

It is the same argument for Ponder or any other young player. What is the upside? Can they develop?

That applies in Wright's case but less so for Simpson, who will be entering his 6th season as a pro and Carlson will be in his 5th. 2012 was far and away Carlson's worst year as a pro so I think the expectation that he will be more productive in 2012 is a little more reasonable. Simpson? I sure wouldn't bet on it and the Vikings shouldn't count on it.