Christian Ponder: Man on an island

[CalVike]

My $0.02. He played differently last year, more like an NFL QB might. He took chances, stepped into throws, and hit receivers in tight spaces. I see very little of this type of play this year. It's like they coached him to manage the game and eliminate mistakes, causing his cerebral side to buy in completely, but muting his natural instincts into the disastrous play we see today. As I've said, my belief is there is no choice but to bench a QB putting up these numbers, but they keep saying, "we are close" and "it's all fixable" making me think organizational expectations are defined only in lack of mistakes and not at all in QB production, which is scary.

[mosscarter]

you need an arm to be a gunslinger, to compare him in the same sentence as farve is a travesty. when is the last time you saw ponder actually drill one to a wide receiver, in the end zone over 20 yards? and i'm not talking about those lob passes the throws to rudolph. he throws he worst deep ball in the nfl. in fact, all he does is take one step back and just lob it down the field, he doesn't even throw it. this kid is just horrible, i'm sorry, i saw him single handedly lose a crucial division game. you have a back that runs for over 200 yards, and you have a qb with 37 yards passing through 3 quarters? i mean seriously, what game were you guys watching?

[Delaqure]

It just seems to me that Ponders issues are in his head. Its probably a combination of coaching, maybe trying to make him a manager and that's not him. That might screw with his confidence. It could be a lack of confidence in his receivers. He doesn't seem to have anyone he can count on going after the ball consistently. The fan base is putting a lot of pressure on him too. He's got it from all directions. I feel for the kid. I don't know if the coaches are pulling too tight on the reigns but if the OP is right they need to cut ties. Let the kid play and if he throws ints so be it. He's young and will get better hopefully. We may just see some better throws and more tds as well.

[Just Me]

Ponder is so bad that it overshadows a disturbing aspect of Ponder's career that was thankfully noted in that article, and that is Ponder has yet to rally a win, and is 1-11 or something in games we trail at halftime.

Huh? First game of the season? (I know it seems so long ago) We gave up a a go-ahead score with 20 seconds left in the game. Ponder had about 20 seconds to get it done to tie ans send into OT and he did. (Maybe the source is only counting games we were behind at halftime, but it still seems inaccurate then.)

Listen, there is enough to be critical of Ponder without the need, forgive me, of "padding his stats" in that direction.

[dkoby]

Huh? First game of the season? (I know it seems so long ago) We gave up a a go-ahead score with 20 seconds left in the game. Ponder had about 20 seconds to get it done to tie ans send into OT and he did. (Maybe the source is only counting games we were behind at halftime, but it still seems inaccurate then.)

Listen, there is enough to be critical of Ponder without the need, forgive me, of "padding his stats" in that direction.

I definitely remember that game. It is what gave me hope this season. Where the hell did that guy go?

[mansquatch]

You guys have totally missed the point Mondry and the rest of us are trying to talk out. The question isn't whether or not he sucks right now, that really doesn't require deliberation. The questions we are trying to answer are:

1.) Why has he regressed and what happened to the passing we saw last year?
2.) Can he turn it around?

Everyone here acknowledges his crap on Sunday. The point about the INTs wasn't about the INTs, it was the point you were making, you get the INT but you don't get anything else. The question is last year we got the INTs but we also saw flashes of some serious positives. Where did that go? The Gunslinger analogy has to do with Ponder's mentality, not his arm strength. Maybe reading comprehension might help?

[Arjuna]

http://www.footballsfuture.com/phpBB2/v ... &start=360

Scroll down until you see the pics if you want a real example of how bad he is playing. He's not seeing the field. He's basically a one read QB. Even when he does get guys open he isn't making accurate throws, if he sees them. He isn't comfortable in the pocket. So many times I watch the Vikings and he takes off way too soon, or when he does feel pressure he runs right into! Can pocket presence be coached or improved? Watching Andrew Luck slide around in the pocket and keep his eyes down field makes me sick watching Ponder look like a scared child. He is making a ton of dumb mistakes. He has a weak arm, it's not a total noodle but it's not strong by any means. Wasn't his strengths coming out of college intelligence and accuracy? He isn't showing either. So what is this dude's upside?

I just don't see him ever being the type of player to put a team on his shoulders. To me his ceiling is an Alex Smith. He could be the type who could manage a team if you put elite talent around him. Is that worth the growing pains of sticking by him and wasting AD's prime years?

Our WRs are not good, everyone knows this. But he should be hitting them a lot more than he is. Open in the NFL isn't the same as college. Good QBs elevate the play of WRs, how many times have you seen Qbs put the ball where their guy can make a play even when he looks covered? He's got to hit them coming out of their breaks. The way defenses are selling out to stop AD, an average QB would kill you. Does any QB face more one on one coverage? Put the ball at least where your receiver can make a play on it.

Ricky had his eyes set on Locker, when the Titans took him he panicked and took the next QB on his board just for the sake of needing a QB. It was a GIGANTIC reach, everyone had him pegged as a second rounder, where he should have been taken. I was completely shocked we took him at 12, I think most people were. We should have taken BPA and tried to get Mallett in a later round. He has stone feet but he was far more advanced as a passer. And if he sucked who gives a damn you don't have a lot invested in him. Next years QB class don't look too hot either.

[dead_poet]

Watching Andrew Luck slide around in the pocket and keep his eyes down field makes me sick watching Ponder look like a scared child.

Ponder compared to Joe Montana is pretty bad too. If you're expecting Ponder to be Andrew Luck, RGIII or guys that everybody knows are superior talents you're going to be severely disappointed. Put some more weaponry around him and let's see what he can do. Or, if the consensus among the coaching staff/GM is he won't be sufficient even then, it's time to look elsewhere.

[Mothman]

You guys have totally missed the point Mondry and the rest of us are trying to talk out. The question isn't whether or not he sucks right now, that really doesn't require deliberation. The questions we are trying to answer are:

1.) Why has he regressed and what happened to the passing we saw last year?
2.) Can he turn it around?

Everyone here acknowledges his crap on Sunday. The point about the INTs wasn't about the INTs, it was the point you were making, you get the INT but you don't get anything else. The question is last year we got the INTs but we also saw flashes of some serious positives. Where did that go? The Gunslinger analogy has to do with Ponder's mentality, not his arm strength. Maybe reading comprehension might help?

I think it's easy to get wrapped up in the flaws and mistakes and overlook the positives, which have still been there this season, just not often enough.The gunslinger mentality is still there to some extent too. Ponder has been willing to take risks and throw deep. What he's far less willing to do is throw into tight windows, although he'll still try that too (at least to Rudolph). He appears to have lost faith in himself and perhaps in some of his targets.

I think the primary reasons for his regression are his tendency to force the ball when he doesn't need to (like he did on his first INT against GB last Sunday) and the breakdowns in his mechanics. When he sets his feet and follows through on his throws, he tends to be fine. When he doesn't, he gets into trouble.

Both problems are probably more mental than physical, even the mechanics. He just looks jumpy, unsettled and uncertain of himself.

[VikingLord]

This is the discussion people have when a team reaches in the draft. Ponder is in way over his head and everyone from the coaches on down can see it. Everyone wants to believe that Ponder can shake it off or whatever and rise to the level of play befitting his draft position. The problem with that is maybe he never merited that draft position to begin with. If Ponder was taken in the 6th or was a street free agent none of these discussions would be happening. In the case of most fans it's his draft position that keeps the churn going about why he's failing. For Spielman and the coaches, it's the investment made in the draft that keeps it going.

Seriously, what has Ponder shown that provides any evidence he'll ever be more than a journeyman QB in the NFL? I know he supposedly lacks receivers, has a bad offensive line that doesn't give him time, and bad coaches that are the reason he's so skittish and afraid to make mistakes. But beyond that, just looking at him - his mechanics, his accuracy, his decision-making both under pressure and not under pressure, what is there that makes anyone think this guy has the makings of a future franchise QB?

I just don't see it, and like most fans I've been looking for it because like all Vikings fans we know how critical the QB position is to a team's success. I want to see. I hope to see it. But I just don't. I don't care what kind of coaching he's getting or not getting, or whether he has a bunch of Megatrons to throw to, or whether he sets up behind an offensive line that packs him a picnic lunch before the snap, I still don't see in this particular player the makings of anything great. It's just not there. It's not there in the way he throws the ball, reads the field, or reacts under pressure. In fact, what I see indicates the exact opposite for Ponder - he's not just a guy whose ceiling is caretaker for a team with a lot of talent - he's actually making so many unforced errors in addition to the timid play that he's costing the team in more ways than one. If I were an NFL GM, I wouldn't sign him to my practice squad even if the Vikings cut him tomorrow. I think he's that bad.

So we can go on having this discussion till the cows come home, and Frazier and Musgrave can convince themselves there is more they can do to make the guy successful, but at this point every down spent with Ponder behind center is going to be a wasted down. Maybe Webb and MBT aren't the answer, either, but the sooner the Vikings admit they made a mistake on Ponder the sooner they can start taking actions to fix the problem. As long as they think the problem is with coaching/receivers/offensive line, the real problem is going to remain.

That's my take.

[mondry]

I think it's easy to get wrapped up in the flaws and mistakes and overlook the positives, which have still been there this season, just not often enough.The gunslinger mentality is still there to some extent too. Ponder has been willing to take risks and throw deep. What he's far less willing to do is throw into tight windows, although he'll still try that too (at least to Rudolph). He appears to have lost faith in himself and perhaps in some of his targets.

I think the primary reasons for his regression are his tendency to force the ball when he doesn't need to (like he did on his first INT against GB last Sunday) and the breakdowns in his mechanics. When he sets his feet and follows through on his throws, he tends to be fine. When he doesn't, he gets into trouble.

Both problems are probably more mental than physical, even the mechanics. He just looks jumpy, unsettled and uncertain of himself.

Definitely 100% mental, he's probably never been forced to play inside a system like this and never been asked "just don't do too much." I really believe last year he came in and our season was already over and they told him to just go out there and let's see what you've got! We saw what he was capable of, moving the chains almost at will, completing deep passes, and throwing into tight windows, especially over the middle. Many times he WAS driving down the field for a game winning TD only to be picked off, or he would have more come from behind wins.

Now they clearly don't care if he has a good game, as long as he doesn't make mistakes. I can relate it to disc golf. Some times I get up there, really think about my form, how's my grip? Did I do my X step properly? Was the release good? Did I turn the disc over? I'll have some really bad throws that don't make a lot of sense, because #1 I'm thinking about it and #2 I don't want to make a mistake and throw it into the woods. Other times I just walk up to the Tee, let it rip and it's straight down the fairway like a laser. My point is, it's easy to play well when things are going well, you just DO and it works out. When things aren't going well you start thinking about why, especially if you have someone in your ear saying "remember, top priority is, don't throw it in the woods!"

I think the coaches have added onto Ponders slump by over emphasizing mistake free football at all costs. It's no longer about "just have fun and we'll score a few TD's AND throw a few picks, that's okay" It's "Do not make mistakes because you aren't good enough to overcome them." That's the message Ponder has in his head, imo.

[Mothman]

This is the discussion people have when a team reaches in the draft. Ponder is in way over his head and everyone from the coaches on down can see it. Everyone wants to believe that Ponder can shake it off or whatever and rise to the level of play befitting his draft position. The problem with that is maybe he never merited that draft position to begin with. If Ponder was taken in the 6th or was a street free agent none of these discussions would be happening. In the case of most fans it's his draft position that keeps the churn going about why he's failing. For Spielman and the coaches, it's the investment made in the draft that keeps it going.

I can't speak for anybody else but I rarely even think about Ponder's draft position unless someone brings it up here. Once he was drafted, that mattered very little to me. It was a sunken cost, reach or not. From the Vikings point of view, I don't think it's draft investment that keeps Ponder in the lineup so much as the investment of time and energy, which is based on their evaluation of him and their belief that he could do the job. Regardless of what fans think of Joe Webb, the Vikings have evaluated what they have in Webb and they clearly didn't (in the spring of 2011) and don't believe he has a future as their starting QB. If they did, Ponder may not have been drafted in the first place.

Anyway, after investing time and effort into developing Ponder, it seems they want to fully evaluate him before deciding to pull the plug. That's my take anyway. He's in there because they're continuing to evaluate him and hopefully, because they still think he gives them the best chance to win. Maybe they're holding onto some slim hope that he can be their future QB and maybe not.

One thing to remember: the investment in a first round QB isn't what it used to be and Ponder's contract guaranteed him $10 million. If the Vikes feel they need to move on, they can cut him without suffering a debilitating impact on the salary cap.

Seriously, what has Ponder shown that provides any evidence he'll ever be more than a journeyman QB in the NFL? I know he supposedly lacks receivers..

"Supposedly"? You tend to post that as if you think it's nothing but empty rhetoric. Other than Harvin, do you think this is a good group of receivers by NFL standards? Look at it objectively, if the Vikings were playing a team with Simpson, Jenkins, Wright, Aromashodu, and Burton at WR, would you be particularly concerned about that group of receivers? Do you think opposing defensive coordinators are very concerned? They're an easy group to contain and not just because of the quarterback.

But beyond that, just looking at him - his mechanics, his accuracy, his decision-making both under pressure and not under pressure, what is there that makes anyone think this guy has the makings of a future franchise QB?

At this point, there's very little, if anything, that would lead me to think he could be a franchise QB.

That said, I'm not sure we should interpret the Vikings continued support of Ponder as an indication they believe he's their franchise QB. They may just be playing him at this point because they're determined to evaluate him based on an entire season's performance and to decide if he should be kept and demoted or simply cut. We don't know. They're not blind to the fact that he's playing poorly and for all we know Spielman may be putting together a list of QBs to target in the offseason.

So we can go on having this discussion till the cows come home, and Frazier and Musgrave can convince themselves there is more they can do to make the guy successful, but at this point every down spent with Ponder behind center is going to be a wasted down. Maybe Webb and MBT aren't the answer, either, but the sooner the Vikings admit they made a mistake on Ponder the sooner they can start taking actions to fix the problem. As long as they think the problem is with coaching/receivers/offensive line, the real problem is going to remain.

I've seen nothing that suggests the Vikings think the problem is coaching/receivers/offensive line and not Ponder. If you listen to Frazier's comments, he's obviously aware that Ponder is playing poorly.

[Mothman]

Now they clearly don't care if he has a good game, as long as he doesn't make mistakes.

I have to say, I'm not getting that from them at all. I think they probably care quite a bit about him having a good game and doing more than just avoiding mistakes.

I think the coaches have added onto Ponders slump by over emphasizing mistake free football at all costs. It's no longer about "just have fun and we'll score a few TD's AND throw a few picks, that's okay" It's "Do not make mistakes because you aren't good enough to overcome them." That's the message Ponder has in his head, imo.

It might be the message he has in his head but I'm not convinced the coaches put it there. Let's face it, we don't really know what the coaches say to him.

[NextQuestion]

Tom Brady has a rotating cast of WRs, TEs, and RBs. I know Brady if a gift from god but dude makes everyone good. One of his more productive WRs is a special teamer who also plays DB (Edelman) and he completely ignores the big play WR on his team (Lloyd). He basically passes to two small white guys, one huge TE, and one athletic TE.

Ponder could have Harvin, Wallace, Bowe next year and it won't work out for him. His mechanics are just flat out horrible. He might have gone 4TDs-0INT in the first few weeks but remember how our S/T bailed us out on the road vs DET? He nearly tossed a pick 6 vs SF but got away lucky because DB dropped it.

Listen, I've been a fan my whole life and some of our most successful years in the past two decades have come from veteran QBs. I just want to win. We tend to swing and miss on drafting QBs....Let's get someone who can be a leader.

[tarken10]

I dont think football has been at the top of Ponders list the past four months, now he is engaged to the ESPN reporter. The relationship started four months ago according to the press...I'm not saying he shouldn't have a personal life other than football, but I cant believe its not affecting his play, maybe less Samantha and more time in the film room would help.