Jim's postgame thoughts

[Eli]

Harrison Smith's is the concussion I'm worried about. Looked like he really did a number on himself.

[VikingLord]

I'm confused why you seem to think it has to be one or the other? Ponder has looked lost at times, is skittish in the pocket and isnt showing much progress, but why does that change the fact that he's not getting any help from his WRs? He threw numerous balls that should hav been caught that weren't, one for a td. You want to look at cutlets escapability and ability to throw from different spots on the field and different body positions, which is fine (although I think that cutler is actually quite exceptional with both escapability and ball release) but I'd also like to point out Marshall made most of his catches in tight double coverage. I wish we had a receiver who could catch the ball in tight single coverage, let alone double. Hell today we had guys wide open who couldn't catch the ball.

Ponder shares the blame, but I don't believe he should shoulder the majority of the blame. The passing offense as a whole is a mess, and switching ponder for Webb will make no more difference than switching Jenkins for burton, or disco for Schwartz

Ponder may not be the biggest problem from a performance perspective. There are certainly enough failures at WR, TE, and OL to go around to support that stance. However, due to the position he plays, which unfortunately for him figures most prominently in any offense's relative success or failure, he does shoulder the majority of the blame. He's like the lead singer in a band or the President of the United States. Fair or not, his performances are magnified regardless of whether they are positive or negative, and right now Ponder has been performing on extreme side of negative far more often than he has on any side of positive from what I've seen. Where are the positive plays? Where is the consistency throughout a game? Where is the evidence that he understands what he's doing wrong and is correcting it? Watching him today reminded me of any of the games I've watched where he completely sucked, especially in the first half. All of his bad habits were on full display again. Sure, there were drops. Yes, defenders got through and got pressure. None of that is unusual in your average NFL game. It happens to Tom Brady, Drew Brees, and even Jay Cutler. The better QB's find ways to overcome the mistakes and things that don't go their way. The find ways to cope and compensate and make some positive plays. Ponder is not doing that. He's showing very few signs that he's ever going to do that. When he's looked good, it's generally been on the back of an outstanding day by either Harvin, AD, or Rudolph, plus a great defensive performance. When those don't fall in line behind him and the Vikes need something out of the QB position, they get sub-100 yard passing games.

Thank goodness for garbage-time stats, or AD might have out-gained Ponder's passing totals for 5 straight games the way things have gone. Frazier is about as close to the nirvana of a true run-based attack as he's ever going to get right now. He has a RB who can realistically out-gain his QB consistently. I've actually never witnessed that at the pro level, but that's what the Vikings have right now.

[Raptorman]

I think it's best to just not think this way. Haha

Well, I am trying to be a little positive. It just shows you how close the division really is right at the moment. Chicago has games against the Vikings, Lions and Packers in the next 5 weeks. Packer play the Vikings twice, Bears and Lions in the next 5 weeks. This division is far from settled.

But that's just my opinion, I could be wrong.

[Eli]

Well, I am trying to be a little positive. It just shows you how close the division really is right at the moment. Chicago has games against the Vikings, Lions and Packers in the next 5 weeks. Packer play the Vikings twice, Bears and Lions in the next 5 weeks. This division is far from settled.

It may be numerically close, but in reality, the Bears and Packers are far ahead of the Vikings and Lions. These next division-heavy weeks will sort that out real fast. In the end, it won't be close.

[Just Me]

Ponder may not be the biggest problem from a performance perspective. There are certainly enough failures at WR, TE, and OL to go around to support that stance. However, due to the position he plays, which unfortunately for him figures most prominently in any offense's relative success or failure, he does shoulder the majority of the blame. He's like the lead singer in a band or the President of the United States. Fair or not, his performances are magnified regardless of whether they are positive or negative, and right now Ponder has been performing on extreme side of negative far more often than he has on any side of positive from what I've seen. Where are the positive plays? Where is the consistency throughout a game? Where is the evidence that he understands what he's doing wrong and is correcting it? Watching him today reminded me of any of the games I've watched where he completely sucked, especially in the first half. All of his bad habits were on full display again. Sure, there were drops. Yes, defenders got through and got pressure. None of that is unusual in your average NFL game. It happens to Tom Brady, Drew Brees, and even Jay Cutler. The better QB's find ways to overcome the mistakes and things that don't go their way. The find ways to cope and compensate and make some positive plays. Ponder is not doing that. He's showing very few signs that he's ever going to do that. When he's looked good, it's generally been on the back of an outstanding day by either Harvin, AD, or Rudolph, plus a great defensive performance. When those don't fall in line behind him and the Vikes need something out of the QB position, they get sub-100 yard passing games.

Let me preface this by saying a couple of things:

1) I want Ponder to play to the (either bitter or successful) end of this year. I want his stats to stand for what they are. Compare them to last year stats then evaluate. Is he improving? If yes - keep working with him. If no, get a different QB.

2) I say #1 because I do not want another TJ situation where we are having the same arguments 3 years from now because "Ponder never really got a full season to prove himself"

OK - IF Ponder is improving (but inconsistent) there is another reason (other than "the buck stops here" stance) his flaws seem to be magnified. If AD has an off-day you adjust -Maybe go with Gerhardt on some plays or throw some short passes. If a receiver (or even all of them) have an off-day, you adjust. You run the ball with Peterson, or you sub in a receiver who will not drop every pass that hits him in the hands. Ponder touches the ball on every snap, so when he has a bad game, it can be apparent on every play which magnifies the problem. I am neither supporting nor bashing him, just stating the facts.

Lastly (and this is not an excuse for him missing open receivers), while every QB has to deal with the occasional drop by a receiver, can anyone give me a similar example where several perfectly thrown balls were flat out dropped by a receiver? I don't think you can because on most NFL teams, their back-ups are better than that so a starting receiver turning in that kind of performance would be riding the pine pretty quickly.

All QBs have ups and downs. Lately there have been more "downs" than "ups". This was a rebuilding year anyway. It just happened that an easier schedule early on gave this team more success than everyone (or many, anyway) expected. I want to be able to objectively say "He is regressing" of "He is progressing" at the end of the year. If he's progressing, then keep going that way. If he's regressing, go another direction...

[Sutsgold]

The game is won and loss on the line. Our OL pass blocking is bad. Our DL pass rush was bad. Did JA do much besides the cheep shot he put on the bears lineman?

I will also add that the play calling on 3rd and 2 near the goal line was bad. AP was running like a man possessed, and we tried to pass twice. Run the ball twice, get the first down, and give ourselves four shots at the endzone from within the 5. I think some at soldier field may have heard me yelling through my t.v. Frustrating.

Bottom line, we are still a work in progress, and the back half of our schedule will really expose this. But, we are on the way up from a 3 win season, GB is on the way down from a 15 win season. I look forward to the day we pass them.

[Mothman]

I continue to scratch my head as to why you seem to want to place the bulk of the blame for the poor passing offense on the WRs.

I don't think I've ever said the bulk of the blame should fall on the WRs. I think the blame is shared. I'm just not as laser-focused on blaming Ponder as a lot of fans seem to be and since so many people seem to have criticizing Ponder well-covered, a lot of my posts focus more on the other issues I see in the passing game.

Ponder had an uneven game yesterday but the WRs stunk. That was my impression from the stands. I saw Ponder make quite a few bad throws and rush some things under pressure but the poor WR performance really stood out to me.

what I saw, all of Ponder's flaws came back in full force today. He was skittish and left the pocket early numerous times. When he did leave it he ran sideways and backwards, not to find a place to set and deliver a strike, but all the way to the sideline and then made usually a half-hearted attempt to throw it away before going out of bounds.

Sometimes he does that because he has no good target available. There seems to be a kneejerk reaction when Ponder scrambles to assume he's making a bad choice. Sometimes it IS a bad choice but on some of those plays, he has no good option. If you want to know why I keep dwelling on WR performance, there's one of the reasons. They're too easy to cover.

I think it's pointless to even talk about this. Those who want to absolve Ponder of blame are going to find any number of excuses for him. He has a bad offensive line. He's a 2nd-year player. His WR's can't get "open enough" (whatever that means), the playcalling stinks, etc. At some point it's going to be obvious to everyone that Ponder is not the answer at QB. As much as we all want him to be and the Vikes need him to be, he just isn't going to be.

I'm not looking to absolve Ponder and I refuse to be made out as some sort of pro-Ponder apologist. Look at my first post in this thread. Does the sentence "#2 was Ponder, who made some nice throws but was inconsistent again and threw several passes high and/or late, one of which was picked off" sound like an effort to absolve Ponder of blame? I'm just watching the guy from week to week and trying to look objectively at his good points and bad points. I've seen both in every game. There's a world of difference between not blaming Ponder for everything from a bad snap to a dropped pass to poor blocking and and covered receivers and blaming him for the mistakes he can actually control, like poor throws and bad decisions.

As for whether Ponder is the answer at QB: you're right, IF he's not the answer then at some point, that will be obvious to everyone. If he is the answer, I don't think he's proved it yet and time is beginning to run out on him. However, the Vikes committed themselves to finding out if he's the answer and I have no problem with them seeing that through, as long as they do it wisely. Letting the first round draft pick start his entire second season at QB and play through adversity isn't a bad idea as far as I'm concerned. Going into next season without a more viable alternative than Webb would be a bad idea because Ponder isn't definitively showing that he's the long term answer.

One more thing: here's a list of simple questions, related to the list of "excuses" you made above:

Does the Vikings o-line struggle in pass protection?

Is Ponder a 2nd-year player?

Do the Vikings WRs struggle to get open?

Are there times when the offensive playcalling stinks?

If you answered "yes" to any of the above than they aren't just excuses. They're among the many reasons the Vikings offense struggles. As far as I'm concerned, the answer to all 4 questions is "yes" so I don't see any reason to be dismissive when people raise those points because they aren't just excuses, they're legitimate reasons for the problems the Vikes face on offense. Acknowledging them is just a way of looking at the bigger picture, not a way of absolving Ponder for his own shortcomings.

[Mothman]

A good perspective on the game from Tom Powers:

http://www.twincities.com/sports/ci_220 ... -aspire-be

[sdranger]

I'm starting to get the feeling Ponder doesn't have "it". I've supported him from the begining but yesterday the coaching staff put the game on his shoulders, and he folded like a cheap suit. Now he didn't get much help from Simpson and the dude better start getting out of his lease in MN. But it seems to me the game plan was to see what Ponder could do. It had to be because they didn't use AD like they should have and with 43 throws he had his chances. The thing I hate is maybe having to start all over with a QB next year.

[Mothman]

I'm starting to get the feeling Ponder doesn't have "it". I've supported him from the begining but yesterday the coaching staff put the game on his shoulders, and he folded like a cheap suit. Now he didn't get much help from Simpson and the dude better start getting out of his lease in MN. But it seems to me the game plan was to see what Ponder could do. It had to be because they didn't use AD like they should have and with 43 throws he had his chances. The thing I hate is maybe having to start all over with a QB next year.

If that was the game plan, it was a bad one, especially on the road, with Harvin out, against a defense that excels at forcing turnovers.

I don't know if Ponder has "it" or not. At this point, I doubt he's going to become the long term QB solution the Vikes hope he will be for them. I think he'd be better with a better supporting cast but he may prove to be a swing and a miss. If so, the Vikes just have to try again until they get it right.

[purplehaze]

Thank goodness for garbage-time stats, or AD might have out-gained Ponder's passing totals for 5 straight games the way things have gone. Frazier is about as close to the nirvana of a true run-based attack as he's ever going to get right now. He has a RB who can realistically out-gain his QB consistently. I've actually never witnessed that at the pro level, but that's what the Vikings have right now.

Wow VL, good perspective. I feel bad for AD.

[Cliff]

Ponder had some throws that were just awful and made a few bad decisions.

I also counted 6 instances where passes hit recievers in the chest/hands (not counting the throw to Rudolph in the end zone where he was double covered) and they bounced off.

That's why people keep bringing up the WRs.

Though honestly that wouldn't have mattered in the end. The Vikings offense couldn't get it together and after too much pressure on top of defending short fields the defense fell apart.

[mansquatch]

I’m not an expert, but my take from watching the game was the Ponder wasn’t as terrible as his stats might indicate. Several of his incompletions were cases where he either had no chance due to protection breakdowns, incompletions where he smartly threw the ball away, or drops. (9 drops in total.) There were signs of progress, he ran several bootlegs where he ended up throwing the ball away due to no one being open. 4 weeks ago he was trying to force that pass and getting picked off. To be sure he made bad plays, the pick over the top being the most glaring example. I suspect though that the drops and sacks made up over 75% of his incompletions. To be sure some of that is going to happen every game, but the point is that yesterday it happened way too much for Ponder to overcome.

The protection was bad yesterday. The bears were exploiting our poor guard play via line stunts. There is little Ponder can do when he as a DL in his face in under 3 seconds. That isn’t a blitz read where he can hit the hot route. If he has an outlet he might be able to hit it, but if the play isn’t called as such he is hosed. The Guards need to play better, or the protection scheme needs to change. Only thing they could have done is run more Max Protect and hope one or two of our WR can get open against multiple DB on an extended play. Of course that isn’t likely given that Harvin is hurt.

It is worth noting that the Max Protect thing is exactly what Mike Tice did to us. They ran 2 and 3 guy patterns and kept 7-8 in protection, Marshall was winning the matchups in the secondary which allowed them to keep running that style of offense all day, minimizing the weakness of their OL while taking away our strength, our DL. We really missed Chris Cook on defense today. The key difference is the Bears have Brandon Marshall. We do not have anyone on our team that can do that kind of stuff when running a route.

I get that Ponder plays QB and therefore he is the most responsible for the offense’s performance, but I think people are not being serious if they think it is just him. Who is Webb going to throw to? Defenses already do not need to double cover any of our WR with Harvin hurt. It isn’t going to take much to put a LB as a spy on him to neutralize his running abilities. Webb has notoriously been bad in games where a defense has had a week to prepare for him. Why do we suddenly feel that has changed?

Ponder has made some dumb mistakes this season, but I’m not convinced he is the root of all our woes right now. Having no receiving threat that can consistently give DB’s a headache means we need more guys out running routes to spread out the defense in hopes of somebody getting open. That means fewer guys in protection and defenses have proven that our Guards are vulnerable. Against a defense that is as talented as Chicago’s those weakness are too much. Against the Packers, who have a less overall talented defense, I think our weaknesses will not be as bad, but they will try to exploit them just the same. Regardless, it emphasizes the need for a big receiving target. Ponder isn’t a QB like Rogers who can throw people open. That doesn’t mean he isn’t NFL viable, it just means he isn’t going to succeed with our current WR talent.

One last note on Ponder. Everyone wants him to be like Rogers or Brees, etc. Even the comparison to Luck is made and how they want him to be like that. Rogers didn’t start his first game until his 4th season in the league. He wasn’t great that first year either, but then steadily improved. Brees got let go by SD before starting over in NO and pairing with the likes of Joe Horn and now Colston, plus a coach like Sean Payton. (love him or hate him, the guy is an offensive genius) Luck has Reggie Wayne to throw to, whose talent we Vikings Fans should know all too well after week 2. Russel Wilson has Sidney Rice. The guy in TB has two big WR targets.

Ponder is in his 2nd year and he is throwing to Michael Jenkins and Jerome Simpson. Yes we want him to be great, but looking at these other guys, he deserves more time and better weapons. We have yet to put him in a situation anywhere near what these other guys get to throw to. Patience is needed IMO.

[losperros]

A good perspective on the game from Tom Powers:

http://www.twincities.com/sports/ci_220 ... -aspire-be

I'd have to go along with Powers regarding the Vikings simply not being a good team yet. They've surprised me by winning as much as they have so far. But quite honestly, they've gone from being a really bad team last season to maybe an average NFL team this year. The good thing is that's still improvement.

Not to sound like a broken record but I still don't see a championship caliber team coming from this present roster.

[Mothman]

I’m not an expert, but my take from watching the game was the Ponder wasn’t as terrible as his stats might indicate. Several of his incompletions were cases where he either had no chance due to protection breakdowns, incompletions where he smartly threw the ball away, or drops. (9 drops in total.) There were signs of progress, he ran several bootlegs where he ended up throwing the ball away due to no one being open. 4 weeks ago he was trying to force that pass and getting picked off. To be sure he made bad plays, the pick over the top being the most glaring example. I suspect though that the drops and sacks made up over 75% of his incompletions. To be sure some of that is going to happen every game, but the point is that yesterday it happened way too much for Ponder to overcome.

The protection was bad yesterday. The bears were exploiting our poor guard play via line stunts. There is little Ponder can do when he as a DL in his face in under 3 seconds. That isn’t a blitz read where he can hit the hot route. If he has an outlet he might be able to hit it, but if the play isn’t called as such he is hosed. The Guards need to play better, or the protection scheme needs to change. Only thing they could have done is run more Max Protect and hope one or two of our WR can get open against multiple DB on an extended play. Of course that isn’t likely given that Harvin is hurt.

It is worth noting that the Max Protect thing is exactly what Mike Tice did to us. They ran 2 and 3 guy patterns and kept 7-8 in protection, Marshall was winning the matchups in the secondary which allowed them to keep running that style of offense all day, minimizing the weakness of their OL while taking away our strength, our DL. We really missed Chris Cook on defense today. The key difference is the Bears have Brandon Marshall. We do not have anyone on our team that can do that kind of stuff when running a route.

I get that Ponder plays QB and therefore he is the most responsible for the offense’s performance, but I think people are not being serious if they think it is just him. Who is Webb going to throw to? Defenses already do not need to double cover any of our WR with Harvin hurt. It isn’t going to take much to put a LB as a spy on him to neutralize his running abilities. Webb has notoriously been bad in games where a defense has had a week to prepare for him. Why do we suddenly feel that has changed?

Ponder has made some dumb mistakes this season, but I’m not convinced he is the root of all our woes right now. Having no receiving threat that can consistently give DB’s a headache means we need more guys out running routes to spread out the defense in hopes of somebody getting open. That means fewer guys in protection and defenses have proven that our Guards are vulnerable. Against a defense that is as talented as Chicago’s those weakness are too much. Against the Packers, who have a less overall talented defense, I think our weaknesses will not be as bad, but they will try to exploit them just the same. Regardless, it emphasizes the need for a big receiving target. Ponder isn’t a QB like Rogers who can throw people open. That doesn’t mean he isn’t NFL viable, it just means he isn’t going to succeed with our current WR talent.

One last note on Ponder. Everyone wants him to be like Rogers or Brees, etc. Even the comparison to Luck is made and how they want him to be like that. Rogers didn’t start his first game until his 4th season in the league. He wasn’t great that first year either, but then steadily improved. Brees got let go by SD before starting over in NO and pairing with the likes of Joe Horn and now Colston, plus a coach like Sean Payton. (love him or hate him, the guy is an offensive genius) Luck has Reggie Wayne to throw to, whose talent we Vikings Fans should know all too well after week 2. Russel Wilson has Sidney Rice. The guy in TB has two big WR targets.

Ponder is in his 2nd year and he is throwing to Michael Jenkins and Jerome Simpson. Yes we want him to be great, but looking at these other guys, he deserves more time and better weapons. We have yet to put him in a situation anywhere near what these other guys get to throw to. Patience is needed IMO.

Excellent post.

Did the Vikes really drop 9 passes? Wow, that's bad. I knew there were at least 6 but 9... it's appalling.