Santana Rumors

DanAS1 · Post by **DanAS1** » Sun Dec 02, 2007 6:27 pm

[quote="wang_chi7"]

If Ellsbury is in the deal, then maybe. Without him I would definitely be unhappy. Lester, Ellsbury, and a decent prospect at minimum. That third guy being Bucholz would seal the deal, but it won't happen. The Yankees deal at the moment is quite a bit better. Coco Crisp can stay where he's at. [quote]

I think the latest is that the Twins can have Ellsbury or Lester, but not both.

wang_chi7 · Post by **wang_chi7** » Sun Dec 02, 2007 6:41 pm

DanAS1 wrote:

I would not do it then, unless its Ellsbury and Bucholz. But there's no way. The Yankees deal is much better if this is the case. But if they will deal with Boston I'd take Ellsbury any day out of the two. Lester is good and everything, but won't be someone special IMO.

DanAS1 · Post by **DanAS1** » Sun Dec 02, 2007 7:11 pm

wang_chi7 wrote:
I would not do it then, unless its Ellsbury and Bucholz. But there's no way. The Yankees deal is much better if this is the case. But if they will deal with Boston I'd take Ellsbury any day out of the two. Lester is good and everything, but won't be someone special IMO.

You definitely don't want to trade Santana for a bunch of guys -- however serviceable -- who are the caliber of Ford or Bartlett. Fans won't accept their mediocrity. No, for Santana, you're looking for at least one player who isn't a utility infielder, an outfielder without pop in his bat, a middle reliever, or a 3rd starter.

wang_chi7 · Post by **wang_chi7** » Sun Dec 02, 2007 8:04 pm

DanAS1 wrote: You definitely don't want to trade Santana for a bunch of guys -- however serviceable -- who are the caliber of Ford or Bartlett. Fans won't accept their mediocrity. No, for Santana, you're looking for at least one player who isn't a utility infielder, an outfielder without pop in his bat, a middle reliever, or a 3rd starter.

Thats why I like Ellsbury and would demand him in any trade. But would ask for one more key guy.

Yankees are offering their top prospect in Hughes, he should be special. Cabrera won't ever be a power hitter I don't think but should be a 20 HR guy that gets on base quite often, plays very good defense, and lead off the lineup.

Demi · Post by **Demi** » Mon Dec 03, 2007 12:54 am

http://sports.espn.go.com/mlb/news/story?id=3138088

But sources say the Red Sox have also told the Twins they will not trade left-handed pitcher Jon Lester and Ellsbury together in the package they are offering.

Pinstriiiipes.

The Yankees, meanwhile, have informed the Twins that they are going to pull their offer off the table soon -- perhaps by Tuesday at the latest -- unless they get an answer. The Yankees changed their offer on Friday, adding pitcher Phil Hughes after much internal debate, to go along with Melky Cabrera and a third prospect.

hmmm. or not.

I guess I can't see them keeping him. As much as they probably should. I just can't take a young cheap guy or two seriously, no matter the potential. When you're talking about the proven top pitcher.

wang_chi7 · Post by **wang_chi7** » Mon Dec 03, 2007 1:23 pm

Demi wrote:I guess I can't see them keeping him. As much as they probably should. I just can't take a young cheap guy or two seriously, no matter the potential. When you're talking about the proven top pitcher.

I know what you mean. I still have a tiny bit of faith that Pohlad will see it as a good business decision to sign him and show faith to the fans. A gesture like that will get more people in the ballpark as right now people are pretty disgruntled with losing Hunter and possibly the best pitcher in baseball.

I do like the Yankees offer though, and am starting to like the Boston one after reading a little bit on the prospects involved. I like Ellsbury a lot, but the other ones I'm not completely sold on. I'll accept a trade I guess as long as they get at least two top young guys or someone in the echelon of Reyes and another decent player. I won't be as happy as before the trade, but it will get me excited to see the new players. Right now I've been thoroughly impressed with the new GM and have faith he'll make the best decision considering the situation.

VikingMachine · Post by **VikingMachine** » Mon Dec 03, 2007 2:36 pm

I hope they play hardball with Boston and NY. Whats the worst thing that happens, we keep Santana and sign him up to a new deal....these teams want him bad, I hope we dont fall for this poker bluff and trade him for not enough.

wang_chi7 · Post by **wang_chi7** » Mon Dec 03, 2007 2:59 pm

VikingMachine wrote:I hope they play hardball with Boston and NY. Whats the worst thing that happens, we keep Santana and sign him up to a new deal....these teams want him bad, I hope we dont fall for this poker bluff and trade him for not enough.

I don't think that happens. The chances of a trade were a tiny bit better than 50/50 last week according to reports. If they don't get a great deal, they'll stick with him and try and work a deal and if by July nothing is figured out they can knock on the door of teams in contention for the playoffs. Teams always are willing to overpay for a decent arm at that time, they'll likely go overboard with a guy like Johan. Until they get a satisfactory deal, I'm guessing he'll continue to wear the TC on his hat.

wang_chi7 · Post by **wang_chi7** » Tue Dec 04, 2007 12:15 pm

The Yankees deal is all but off the table. It sounds like Hank Steinbrenner will stick with his word on the Monday deadline. The Sox deal including Lester, Crisp, Lowrie and Masterson is the frontrunner now. Minnesota has asked for Lester's medical report.

If they take this deal I will be severely disappointed considering what the Yankees offered. Crisp is an average OF, good glove I'll give him that but overall he is average; Cabrera has basically the same skills at a lower salary and a younger age and hasn't reached his potential yet. Lester is a good pitcher, a solid #2 but Hughes has the stuff to be a #1 and is still considered a top 5 prospect in all of baseball. Masterson should be a solid reliever, but Minnesota already has a solid bullpen; maybe he can be a starter but he's kind of believed to be a reliever in the majors; he's got a good sinker. Lowrie (SS) has some decent stats in the minors, has a decent glove and average range; he could be a decent middle infielder but isn't expected to be great.

Basically, they'd be trading for a solid young starter, an average CF, a decent reliever/spot starter, and a middle infielder who is decent all around but not great anywhere. I liked the Yankees deal so much better. I wish the Mets, Angels, Dodgers, and Mariners were more serious into the talks though as I really don't want him going to Boston or NYY. I just hope they hang onto him until either they come up with a deal, someone knocks their socks off with a deal, or they just hang onto him for the year and make a playoff run. They have a solid club, dare I say even improved even with the loss of Hunter, and hanging onto him might mean a deep playoff run again.

Its not like the Yankees need him (they have Pettite, Chamberlain, Hughes, Wang, and Kennedy which is a very solid rotation of mostly young guys), nor do the Red Sox (they already have the second best pitcher, arguably best along with Lester, and other solid guys.) Both teams have solid, young arms as it is. Thats why they aren't offering the farm (nor should they), and I would almost be surprised if he reaches FA he ends up on one of these clubs simply because other teams need him more and will pay more. There's diminishing returns to adding another player, and financially another team could use him more. I'd guess he'd end up a Met, Dodger, Angel, Mariner, or even end up on a surprise bidder; for instance the Royals have been making a couple surprise moves with big contracts lately (Gil Meche got a mega deal, they have Jose Guillen about signed to a 12m/year deal), or a team like Texas (Arod deal) or Colorado (unlikely as he's not fit for their air effect, but they historically have given huge deals to Mike Hampton and Darryl Kile.) Hopefully there is no bidding for his service and he signs to stay where he's at.

wang_chi7 · Post by **wang_chi7** » Tue Dec 04, 2007 8:05 pm

A little more to update. Florida sent Cabrera and Dontrelle Willis to Detroit for two of the games best prospects and four other players; considering Willis has really struggled lately (plus 5 ERA in the lowly NL) and Cabrera has a history of not taking care of himself the Tigers may have made a big mistake. They gave up the most highly rated prospect in baseball (CF Cameron Maybrin), pitcher Andrew Miller (6th overall pick a couple years ago), and some other good young ballplayers. If Cabrera keeps his weight down and Willis returns to at least decency it may be a great deal though.

But also importantly for the Twins, the Angels didn't get their man Cabrera and are stepping into the Santana sweepstakes. Jayson Stark of ESPN is reporting that Howie Kendrick, Brandan Wood, Nick Adenhart, and possibly Jeff Mathis or Reggie Willits would be in the deal. I'm liking this trade a whole lot. Kendrick would start at 2B, Wood at 3B or short (with Harris the other), and Willits would fill in the 3rd OF spot (Mathis is a C and I would rather take Willits). Wood is a powerhitter, something this team desperately needs but might not be ready to start at the ML level quite yet. But would almost definitely be ready sometime this year. Adenhart is a solid pitcher who probably would be a year away from the pros. Obviously the rotation would take a major hit in this deal, but every position on the field would be taken care of and the team would have a mean lineup. The rotation I'm sure would be very average, if not slightly poor (especially after trading Garza), but they have guys like Slowey, Silva (if they resign him), Boof, and Baker who are all solid pitchers. No ace, but a bunch of pretty good arms. Jared Weaver and Ervin Santana's names are also floating around (both are very solid pitchers.)

Boston possibly added another player to the deal, but reports are different around the internet. Ryan Kalish is a name being thrown around as added to the trade; some sources have him as an addition while others as a replacement for Lowrie. He's a leadoff hitter with good speed and bat, a good glove with decent range in center or right field. Baseball Prospectus writer Will Carrol is reporting the deal includes Lester, a CFer (Crisp or Ellsbury), Masterson, and Kalish and is almost done; now if its Ellsbury then pull the trigger as they would be getting a great deal, but if its Crisp I will be unhappy. That he doesn't know which CF it is, I can't believe that the deal is almost finished.

I'm really liking that Anaheim deal a whole lot. Hopefully its a real story and not overzealousness. Stark is very reliable generally, and others are reporting similar things.

DanAS1 · Post by **DanAS1** » Tue Dec 04, 2007 8:47 pm

wang_chi7 wrote: I'm really liking that Anaheim deal a whole lot. Hopefully its a real story and not overzealousness. Stark is very reliable generally, and others are reporting similar things.

Please, let there be a bidding war. Don't the gods owe us for the Herschel Walker trade?

wang_chi7 · Post by **wang_chi7** » Tue Dec 04, 2007 8:56 pm

DanAS1 wrote: Please, let there be a bidding war. Don't the gods owe us for the Herschel Walker trade?

Great point, Minnesota is owed. A small part of me still thinks the Yankees will panic and either trade both Hughes and Cano or add Kennedy to their 3 player offer. But it sounds like they are holding their ground and are going to stick with the young arms they already got.

DanAS1 · Post by **DanAS1** » Tue Dec 04, 2007 10:29 pm

wang_chi7 wrote: Great point, Minnesota is owed. A small part of me still thinks the Yankees will panic and either trade both Hughes and Cano or add Kennedy to their 3 player offer. But it sounds like they are holding their ground and are going to stick with the young arms they already got.

I would if I were they. They've gone the Superstar route over the past several years and haven't won with it, despite their payroll. It's time for them to try win with home grown talent. There's better karma in that approach.

wang_chi7 · Post by **wang_chi7** » Tue Dec 04, 2007 11:12 pm

DanAS1 wrote: I would if I were they. They've gone the Superstar route over the past several years and haven't won with it, despite their payroll. It's time for them to try win with home grown talent. There's better karma in that approach.

I think so too, and surprisingly most Yankee fans prefer they keep Hughes and build around him, Joba, Wang, and Kennedy. They've done a great job rebuilding their farm system the last couple years, fixing Big Stein's mess. If they would go back to that route they would have a decent chance at another dynasty.

Minniman · Post by **Minniman** » Thu Dec 06, 2007 1:03 am

I guess the Twins will lose Wynegar, Smalley, Zahn, and Blyleven.

I hope they will not trade Rod Carew. He is the AL MVP after all.