The Jones Fumble/McCarthy Red Flag Call

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Rieux
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The Jones Fumble/McCarthy Red Flag Call

Post by Rieux »

Plenty of VIkings fans (such as me) were screaming at referee Mike Carey, or our TVs by proxy, regarding a key play in Sunday's VIkings-Packers clash. As we all know, in the third quarter Packers receiver James Jones, nearing the Vikings' end zone, extended the ball toward the goal line and proceeded to lose control of it, coughing the ball up in what was originally ruled a fumble that the Vikings recovered. A replay review was automatic, given the rule that's now in place—but Packers head coach Mike McCarthy threw his red challenge flag anyway. McCarthy's move sent Packers quarterback Aaron Rodgers into an on-field fit of apoplexy and led receiver Jordy Nelson to pick up McCarthy's red flag and hide it in his pants, because both players recognized (though their head coach didn't, which is bizarre) that throwing a challenge flag in that situation is a penalty at best and a brutal attack on one's own team at worst.

After review, Jones was declared to have crossed the goal line before fumbling, so the Packers were credited with a touchdown.

The reason many Vikings fans (and, probably, Rodgers) were apoplectic about the situation was that McCarthy's act was awfully similar to an infamous mistake that Detroit Lions coach Jim Schwartz made on national television on Thanksgiving, during the Lions' game against the Houston Texans: in the third quarter of that game, Texans running back Justin Forsett was tackled by Lions defenders after an eight-yard carry... but was erroneously not ruled down-by-contact by field officials, allowing Forsett to get up and scamper for an eighty-one-yard touchdown while effectively all of the other twenty-one players on the field initially stopped playing.

The portion of the replay rule in the 2012 NFL Rulebook pertaining to the Replay Official states, in part:
After all scoring plays, interceptions, fumbles and backward passes that are recovered by an opponent or go out of bounds through an opponent’s end zone, muffed scrimmage kicks recovered by the kicking team, after the two-minute warning of each half, and throughout any overtime period, any Replay Review will be initiated by a Replay Official from a Replay Booth comparable to the location of the coaches’ booth or Press Box.
This rule applies to both the James play and the Forsett play, because, as they were initially ruled on the field, the former was a fumble ("... that [was] recovered by an opponent") and the latter a scoring play. As a result, under this season's rules, both plays were subject to automatic review by the replay official.

But then Schwartz and McCarthy stepped in, throwing their challenge flags to challenge plays that were automatic challenges anyway. Back to the 2012 Rulebook:
Coaches’ Challenge. In each game, a team will be permitted two challenges that will initiate Instant Replay reviews, except for plays when the on-field ruling is a score for either team, an interception, a fumble or backward pass that is recovered by an opponent or goes out of bounds through an opponent’s end zone, or a muffed scrimmage kick recovered by the kicking team. A team is also prohibited from challenging any ruling after the two-minute warning of each half, and throughout any overtime period. [....]

Penalty: For initiating a challenge when a team is prohibited from doing so: Loss of 15 yards.
And, indeed, both Schwartz and McCarthy were flagged for fifteen-yard penalties for throwing their challenge flags in this situation, in which they were prohibited from initiating a challenge.

But (as Rodgers and Nelson clearly remembered) Schwartz was penalized far beyond that. The officials in the Thanksgiving game invoked one further portion of the Rulebook's replay-official rule:
He [the Replay Official] must initiate a review before the next legal snap or kick and cannot initiate a review of any ruling against a team that commits a foul that delays the next snap.
After the Thanksgiving game, NFL director of instant replay Dean Blandino explained the purpose of this rule to an NFL.com reporter:
"The rule was put in place really to prevent a team in a challenge situation from creating a delay," Blandino explained. "They're thinking about challenging the play, they commit a foul, jump offside, false start, now they've given themselves more time to make that decision.

"So we tell our coaches, 'Don't throw the flag.' Our officials should get to the sideline, explain to them that the play is not challengeable, and then the replay official is looking at it and he will stop the game and look at it if he deems that it needs to be stopped."
(Frankly, I think Blandino is slightly confused; the rule in question here doesn't apply to situation in which a team is "thinking about challenging the play," but one in which the replay official is presumably doing so. Those are two separate rules, though both of them bar a replay review when the team that would benefit from the review has done something to push back the deadline for the challenge-or-not decision by illegally delaying the next snap.)

On Thanksgiving, referee Walt Coleman ruled that Schwartz, in throwing his challenge flag on an unchallengeable play, committed "a foul that delay[ed] the next snap," and as a result, the Replay Official "c[ould ]not initiate a review" of the Forsett run. (The touchdown therefore stood, helping the Texans eventually win the game in overtime.) Rodgers, Nelson, and a million Vikings fans saw McCarthy's illegal challenge of the Jones play the same way.

Sunday's referee, Mike Carey, however, saw things differently. Carey, who was fairly clearly aware of the text of the rule quoted above, told the audience that the Replay Official had already initiated the review of Jones's fumble by the time McCarthy threw the flag. Thus, he ruled, the rule that the replay official "cannot initiate a review" was irrelevant to the situation on Sunday, because that initiation had already taken place by the time McCarthy committed the penalty.

One fact that favors Carey's distinction between the Forsett and Jones cases was that, on Thanksgiving, Schwartz threw his challenge flag while Forsett was still running; there's no question that Schwartz's flag was out before the replay official in that game had "initiate[d]" anything. (Indeed, that's sort of a perverse defense of Schwartz's action: at the moment he threw the flag, the play he wanted to challenge wasn't a scoring play... yet. If the last man Forsett had to beat, Lions defensive end Lawrence Jackson, had managed to bring Forsett down at the Lions' 2-yard-line, then Schwartz's already-made challenge would have been legal, it would have been upheld, and the Thanksgiving game would have proceeded very differently.)

By contrast, it's fairly clear that McCarthy didn't throw his challenge flag until after the Jones play had been whistled dead as a Vikings fumble recovery. So the distinction Carey drew isn't clearly false or stupid.

But one has to wonder: did Carey seriously know that his replay official had initiated a review before McCarthy threw the red flag? (Thanks in part to Nelson's custodial work, did Carey even see McCarthy throw it?) Or was that just an after-the-fact rationalization to avoid the ugliness that Coleman and the league faced after the Thanksgiving debacle, not to mention Fail Mary?

After Thanksgiving, NFL fans were reasonably unanimous that the rule that victimized the Lions is a stupid one. Putting on my lawyer hat, I'm not even sure that Coleman (or the NFL brass who promulgated the interpretation he applied) is even necessarily construing the rule correctly. The rule, in and of itself, makes sense to me: it's worthwhile to prevent a team who thinks they've been jobbed on a turnover or scoring play from committing a false start or encroachment (etc.) penalty on the following snap in order to give the replay official more time to decide to reverse a call. But that's obviously not what Schwartz was doing at all. How did Schwartz (or, for that matter, McCarthy) throwing the challenge flag "delay the next snap"? It would appear that the NFL's interpretation is that an illegal challenge by definition delays the following snap and therefore invokes the rule. That's silly, but okay: it's what the rule means now.

So then there's Carey's interpretation of the rule, under which an illegal challenge doesn't kill a replay review as long as that review is initiated before a coach makes an illegal challenge. Exactly where does the rule make that chronological point? Or, in other words, what part of the rule says that it matters which happens first, the review-initiation or the illegal challenge? The rule says that if the following snap is delayed by a replay-desiring-team foul, the replay official isn't allowed to initiate a challenge. It does not say that the replay official, to the contrary, is allowed to initiate a challenge as long as he does so first. So every element of the rule that actually exists on the page was met, but Carey decided it didn't apply.

Anyway. Based solely on the result—Detroit was entirely unfairly scored on, whereas the Packers got a replay review that, by all rights, they deserved—things probably turned out for the best on Sunday in a way they didn't on Thanksgiving. It's even probably better for the Vikings to have won the game without the aid of that particular fumble call. But it's hard to avoid feeling that Carey reached the result he was looking for by (1) making up some convenient facts about which happened first (the replay official's buzz or McCarthy's flag-throw) that he didn't actually know and (2) dubiously reading a concept (the timing of those two events) into the rule that isn't actually there.
Last edited by Rieux on Tue Jan 01, 2013 4:51 pm, edited 1 time in total.
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Re: The Jones Fumble/McCarthy Red Flag Call

Post by Turtle Burger »

I think Carey's explanation is correct. Say the replay official challenged a call, the referee reviewed and overturned it, and after all that, the team committed a foul that delayed the next snap. Would you go back and undo the review at that point, I don't think that would make sense at all. You have to draw the line somewhere, and the wording of the rule does seem to support that the official cannot initiate a review only given that a foul has already taken place. It would be nice if there was a way to measure exactly when the official review initiation took place, but given that the rule is probably going to be amended anyway, it's probably not a big deal.
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Re: The Jones Fumble/McCarthy Red Flag Call

Post by Raptorman »

The only fly in the ointment is that after the game Carey stated he did not know which happened first, the flag or the review. He gave the benefit of doubt to the Packers. While I agree with the final outcome because ultimately the Vikings won, had they not won would this be a bigger issue? The rule does not state that the ref has the right to ignore the flay. Hence, as I said once before, I think the NFL will attempt to "clarify" the rule before Saturdays games.
Referee Mike Carey said he couldn't tell whether McCarthy threw the flag before the replay official buzzed him, though, and decided to review a play that ended up turning a Vikings fumble recovery into seven points for the Packers on Sunday.
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Re: The Jones Fumble/McCarthy Red Flag Call

Post by Hunter Morrow »

To my mind, Carey stating that he didn't which happened first, flag or auto review, means you have to NOT let the Packers benefit from the review. That happened with the Falcons and it happened with the Lions. If you don't know and you see the coach throw the flag, the review official's review does not happen. That is why the quarterback knew McCarthy was in the wrong to throw the flag and instructed a player to pick the flag up and hide it. It shows "mens rea," a guilty conscience for the "crime" committed of throwing the flag before the auto review and knowledge of what happened to the Falcons and Lions because of that crime:
The review didn't happen and the calls on the field stood.

Carey admitting not knowing and then the behavior to hide the flag means no review, call on field stands.

Edit: It is too easy to say "probably didn't matter." Vikings got the ball afterwards, flagged for holding which cancelled out the Unsportsmanlike Conduct penalty and wound up with zero points. If all the Vikings did was take the ball from the 35, gain about 35 yards and it set up a Blair Walsh 50 yarder or so, that is a 10 point swing. The game could have went from a 3 pointer nail biter to a 13+ point blowout.

Edit to the Edit: If anybody should get "the benefit of the doubt" shouldn't it be the home team who would want the call on the field to stand? Do you think Ponder to Rudolph, A.J. Hawk recovers the fumble means Rudolph would have received "The benefit of the doubt" against a call on the field in Lambeau?
Last edited by Hunter Morrow on Tue Jan 01, 2013 5:44 pm, edited 1 time in total.
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Re: The Jones Fumble/McCarthy Red Flag Call

Post by PurpleMustReign »

Raptorman wrote:The only fly in the ointment is that after the game Carey stated he did not know which happened first, the flag or the review. He gave the benefit of doubt to the Packers. While I agree with the final outcome because ultimately the Vikings won, had they not won would this be a bigger issue? The rule does not state that the ref has the right to ignore the flay. Hence, as I said once before, I think the NFL will attempt to "clarify" the rule before Saturdays games.
http://www.1500espn.com/sportswire/Ref_ ... irst123012
Perhaps a better compromise would have been to say that the WR was down at the one-inch-line and put the ball at the 15 after the penalty) but still give GB possesion. That way, the ruling is overturned, but it isn't a TD either. Does that make sense?
For the record, I believe he did cross the goal line. But as I said, if Carey was really unsure, I think that giving GB the ball at the 15 would have been a better option than giving them all of the reward, you know?
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Re: The Jones Fumble/McCarthy Red Flag Call

Post by Eli »

It was clearly a TD and they got the call right after the review. That's the most important thing to me. The rest of the argument is nothing but sour grapes.
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Re: The Jones Fumble/McCarthy Red Flag Call

Post by Raptorman »

Eli wrote:It was clearly a TD and they got the call right after the review. That's the most important thing to me. The rest of the argument is nothing but sour grapes.
I don't think it's sour grapes. It is a matter of applying the rules consistently. First we are told by the NFL that if a coach throws a flag on the play such as this it becomes not reviewable. Now, during the game we are told something else. So which is it. Nowhere in the rule does it say what Carey claimed. The NFL was very adamant about the rule when Schwartz and the Falcons did it. If you throw a flag during a reviewable play, the play becomes non-reviewable. When did the timing of the flag become a factor in reviewing the play?

I think they got the call right in the review, but I wonder if the rule was applied correctly.
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Re: The Jones Fumble/McCarthy Red Flag Call

Post by Rieux »

Raptorman wrote:I don't think it's sour grapes. It is a matter of applying the rules consistently.
I agree.
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Re: The Jones Fumble/McCarthy Red Flag Call

Post by Just Me »

Rieux wrote: I agree.
While I agree with both of you, I don't have an issue with how it was handled. If anything, Detroit is the team that got hosed. Look at it this way: If the team clearly gets a TD (which I think the Packers did in that case) would you then take away the TD if a player committed an "unsportsmanlike conduct" foul after the TD? I think it was handled correctly in the Vikings game (got the play right) but the Lions got royally screwed. Just my 2 cents...
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Re: The Jones Fumble/McCarthy Red Flag Call

Post by BGM »

Eli wrote:It was clearly a TD and they got the call right after the review. That's the most important thing to me. The rest of the argument is nothing but sour grapes.
This. The Vikings won, and the call was correct. Contending this is somehow an example of pro-Packer bias is, honestly, ridiculous. But then, I'm skeptical of any conspiracy claims.
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Re: The Jones Fumble/McCarthy Red Flag Call

Post by vikerfan »

I don't understand how throwing the flag, delays the next snap since all scoring and turnovers are reviewed automatically! As soon as the call on the field is made, either a score or turnover, 1 second later that triggers the automatic review.
I think I know what happened with this whole debacle. The Thanksgiving Day refs screwed up the interpretation, the head office didn't understand it either or did and is now silently trying to change this first precedent setting interpretation by saying the review came in before the flag on all situations like this going forward. That's why Carey can confidently say he doesn't know what came first because automatic review is automatic and made immediately upon the play ending.
Also, since the Refs were screwing up the Packers by getting the ball set for the next snap caused them to take a timeout and it happened a few times to the point Rogers complained visibly to Carey about it, then Carey sure as heck wasn't going to screw them out of a legitimate score.
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Re: The Jones Fumble/McCarthy Red Flag Call

Post by VikingLord »

Rieux wrote: Anyway. Based solely on the result—Detroit was entirely unfairly scored on, whereas the Packers got a replay review that, by all rights, they deserved—things probably turned out for the best on Sunday in a way they didn't on Thanksgiving. It's even probably better for the Vikings to have won the game without the aid of that particular fumble call. But it's hard to avoid feeling that Carey reached the result he was looking for by (1) making up some convenient facts about which happened first (the replay official's buzz or McCarthy's flag-throw) that he didn't actually know and (2) dubiously reading a concept (the timing of those two events) into the rule that isn't actually there.
I would argue it was impossible for Carey to know which happened first - the replay official calling for review or McCarthy throwing his flag.

But I think it's irrelevant which happened first because of the way the rule reads. It's clear that scoring and turnover plays are automatically reviewed. Therefore, it seems silly to argue that the replay official had to initiate anything since by rule the play's outcome determines whether it will be reviewed.

In the Schwartz case, the play was not yet over when the flag was thrown, so Schwartz could not be in violation of the rule as I understand it. McCarthy, OTOH, would by definition be in violation of it.

I don't like Carey's explanation regarding the outcome. I think if Schwartz and the Lions were prevented a review based on an invalid challenge then so should McCarthy have been prevented for the same reason.

With that said, the review produced the correct result and in that sense things turned out as they should have, but it seems awfully arbitrary that the Lions got jobbed while the Packers didn't. IMHO, if the rule is bad, the Packers deserved the same outcome as the Lions in that case.
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Re: The Jones Fumble/McCarthy Red Flag Call

Post by glg »

My suspicion is that after the back-to-back weeks with "THERE WILL BE NO REVIEW" calls, and all the flack about how incredibly stupid the rule is, the league came up with this "interpretation" rather than change the rule midseason. League communicated it to the refs (basically said "just make the review anyway") and this was the first time it's come up. As we saw from Rodgers' and Nelson's reactions, they clearly knew the rule even if McCarthy didn't, so it probably just hasn't come up. Rule will get changed in the offseason to remove the "no review" part, leaving the 15 yard penalty.
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Re: The Jones Fumble/McCarthy Red Flag Call

Post by Eli »

glg wrote:Rule will get changed in the offseason to remove the "no review" part, leaving the 15 yard penalty.
It will be interesting to see exactly how they change the rule. There's a large difference between throwing the challenge flag when you have no timeouts or challenges left and throwing it on a play that's being reviewed anyway. In the latter case, there should be no penalty. It doesn't even cause a delay of game.
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Re: The Jones Fumble/McCarthy Red Flag Call

Post by CalVike »

No issue for me. I'd rather they get the play called right. In general, the refs were beyond bad, on Sunday. Hopefully the all-star crews that work the playoffs will be better Sat.
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