Ruh-Roh, Cook Plans to Hold Out?

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Re: Ruh-Roh, Cook Plans to Hold Out?

Post by StumpHunter » Mon Jun 22, 2020 2:39 pm

S197 wrote:
Mon Jun 22, 2020 2:07 pm
4 million here, 4 million there, it adds up. That's how you can grab guys like Rodger Saffold in free agency.
What are you talking about? We were able to move Elflein to LG and had no need for Saffold. :cry:
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Re: Ruh-Roh, Cook Plans to Hold Out?

Post by RandyMoss84 » Mon Jun 22, 2020 3:13 pm

S197 wrote:
Mon Jun 22, 2020 2:07 pm
4 million here, 4 million there, it adds up. That's how you can grab guys like Rodger Saffold in free agency.
The overrated Lions quarterback?
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Re: Ruh-Roh, Cook Plans to Hold Out?

Post by VikingLord » Mon Jun 22, 2020 4:48 pm

S197 wrote:
Fri Jun 19, 2020 6:52 pm
This team can beat 3 win teams like Denver and Detroit without him but when up against playoff level teams, he's been so key to this offense.
And then there are games like the one against the 49ers in the playoffs where he was on the field and didn't make much of a difference.

I continue to be amazed that the myth of the Great Essential Star RB survives in Minnesota. Every team that played in a conference championship game last year did so without such a player, and yet in Minnesota, the future is bleak if they don't accede to Cook's demands.
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Re: Ruh-Roh, Cook Plans to Hold Out?

Post by VikingLord » Mon Jun 22, 2020 4:54 pm

StumpHunter wrote:
Mon Jun 22, 2020 11:42 am
To bring that back to Cook, is paying Cook 12 million per year instead of 8 really going to impact what we do in free agency next season? Is 10 million versus 6 million going to impact our free agent signings? As much as not having the most explosive RB in the NFL would impact the team?
That $4-6 million invested in Cook is money that can't be invested elsewhere.

Again, I find myself shaking my head at how millions of dollars are thrown around in these conversations like spare change.

$1.5 million per year isn't enough! Player X deserves more! He's SO essential on a team that didn't sniff the Superbowl!

And to be completely fair to the Vikings in this, they did offer Cook an extension. They did offer him more money and made an attempt to invest in him as part of their future when almost all the evidence suggests that is a foolish move for any RB coming off his rookie deal.

It just wasn't enough for him and his super agent.

I'm with Kapp - I'll root for the team and for any players on it. My livelihood isn't tied to it. But from an "average guy" perspective, especially when considering all of the economic uncertainty that so many people are facing right now, I kind of puke in my mouth when I think someone who plays football for a living thinks he's being disrespected by $1.5 million per year, much less the estimated $6-8 million per year the Vikings most likely offered him in extension.
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Re: Ruh-Roh, Cook Plans to Hold Out?

Post by VikingsVictorious » Mon Jun 22, 2020 8:45 pm

StumpHunter wrote:
Mon Jun 22, 2020 11:42 am
VikingsVictorious wrote:
Mon Jun 22, 2020 11:27 am

Yep I see no reason whining about the contracts our players have signed even though I once in a while whine about Barr's. I need to stop that.
If you feel Barr's money could be better used elsewhere, I see no reason for you to stop complaining about his deal. Fans and media ripping the GM for bad contracts is motivation for the GM to stop giving them out.

Of course, if Barr were making 8 million this year instead of 12, or 10 million next year instead 15, is that really going to change anything? As much as not having the LBer Zimmer says every OC accounts for when calling their plays?

To bring that back to Cook, is paying Cook 12 million per year instead of 8 really going to impact what we do in free agency next season? Is 10 million versus 6 million going to impact our free agent signings? As much as not having the most explosive RB in the NFL would impact the team?
Nope whining after the fact won't influence our GM one iota and it only brings dissension. Once the player is signed with us it's time to get behind him 100%.
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Re: Ruh-Roh, Cook Plans to Hold Out?

Post by VikingsVictorious » Mon Jun 22, 2020 8:50 pm

VikingLord wrote:
Mon Jun 22, 2020 4:54 pm
StumpHunter wrote:
Mon Jun 22, 2020 11:42 am
To bring that back to Cook, is paying Cook 12 million per year instead of 8 really going to impact what we do in free agency next season? Is 10 million versus 6 million going to impact our free agent signings? As much as not having the most explosive RB in the NFL would impact the team?
That $4-6 million invested in Cook is money that can't be invested elsewhere.

Again, I find myself shaking my head at how millions of dollars are thrown around in these conversations like spare change.

$1.5 million per year isn't enough! Player X deserves more! He's SO essential on a team that didn't sniff the Superbowl!

And to be completely fair to the Vikings in this, they did offer Cook an extension. They did offer him more money and made an attempt to invest in him as part of their future when almost all the evidence suggests that is a foolish move for any RB coming off his rookie deal.

It just wasn't enough for him and his super agent.

I'm with Kapp - I'll root for the team and for any players on it. My livelihood isn't tied to it. But from an "average guy" perspective, especially when considering all of the economic uncertainty that so many people are facing right now, I kind of puke in my mouth when I think someone who plays football for a living thinks he's being disrespected by $1.5 million per year, much less the estimated $6-8 million per year the Vikings most likely offered him in extension.
We have no facts about the offer, but it seems like it was for at least 8 Million per year. I'm confident that when push comes to shove the Vikings will offer $10 million. Cook and his agent better figure out that he isn't going to get one penny more than that and take it. Otherwise he could end up sitting the next two seasons or being traded to Siberia (or possibly Miami, what's the difference) and not get any more money than he has been offered here.
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Re: Ruh-Roh, Cook Plans to Hold Out?

Post by S197 » Tue Jun 23, 2020 2:09 am

VikingLord wrote:
Mon Jun 22, 2020 4:48 pm
S197 wrote:
Fri Jun 19, 2020 6:52 pm
This team can beat 3 win teams like Denver and Detroit without him but when up against playoff level teams, he's been so key to this offense.
And then there are games like the one against the 49ers in the playoffs where he was on the field and didn't make much of a difference.

I continue to be amazed that the myth of the Great Essential Star RB survives in Minnesota. Every team that played in a conference championship game last year did so without such a player, and yet in Minnesota, the future is bleak if they don't accede to Cook's demands.
That’s not what I said at all. I even specifically mentioned the SF game, which you curiously cropped out. The offense is dreadful when the running game doesn’t work. SF is a good example of this.

That is what this team is built around, defense and ball control. I’m not sure why you think that’s a myth. The key to stopping this team is stopping the run, not stopping Cousins.

Watch the highlights. This was Cousins supposed redemption game. A win against a winning team, on the road, in prime time.

https://youtu.be/5m-vAN7Uh_s

Who is carrying this team to a win? It’s very obvious it was Cook making the vast majority of the plays.
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Re: Ruh-Roh, Cook Plans to Hold Out?

Post by StumpHunter » Tue Jun 23, 2020 10:59 am

VikingLord wrote:
Mon Jun 22, 2020 4:54 pm
StumpHunter wrote:
Mon Jun 22, 2020 11:42 am
To bring that back to Cook, is paying Cook 12 million per year instead of 8 really going to impact what we do in free agency next season? Is 10 million versus 6 million going to impact our free agent signings? As much as not having the most explosive RB in the NFL would impact the team?
That $4-6 million invested in Cook is money that can't be invested elsewhere.

Again, I find myself shaking my head at how millions of dollars are thrown around in these conversations like spare change.

$1.5 million per year isn't enough! Player X deserves more! He's SO essential on a team that didn't sniff the Superbowl!

And to be completely fair to the Vikings in this, they did offer Cook an extension. They did offer him more money and made an attempt to invest in him as part of their future when almost all the evidence suggests that is a foolish move for any RB coming off his rookie deal.

It just wasn't enough for him and his super agent.

I'm with Kapp - I'll root for the team and for any players on it. My livelihood isn't tied to it. But from an "average guy" perspective, especially when considering all of the economic uncertainty that so many people are facing right now, I kind of puke in my mouth when I think someone who plays football for a living thinks he's being disrespected by $1.5 million per year, much less the estimated $6-8 million per year the Vikings most likely offered him in extension.
Shamar Stephen is costing us 5 million this year in cap. Is missing out on a guy of his level going to hurt us?

1.5 million is a lot of money in the real world, but in the world of the NFL, it is obscenely low for what Cook provides. Kyle Rudolph is making 7 times that to be 35th in yards per game for TEs. Reiff is making ten times that to be a mediocre LT. Cousins is making almost 30 times that to play second fiddle to the run game, a run game that Cook is the most important part of. Heck, Diggs is costing us 8 times that to not play for us this year.
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Re: Ruh-Roh, Cook Plans to Hold Out?

Post by VikingsVictorious » Tue Jun 23, 2020 11:16 am

StumpHunter wrote:
Tue Jun 23, 2020 10:59 am
VikingLord wrote:
Mon Jun 22, 2020 4:54 pm


That $4-6 million invested in Cook is money that can't be invested elsewhere.

Again, I find myself shaking my head at how millions of dollars are thrown around in these conversations like spare change.

$1.5 million per year isn't enough! Player X deserves more! He's SO essential on a team that didn't sniff the Superbowl!

And to be completely fair to the Vikings in this, they did offer Cook an extension. They did offer him more money and made an attempt to invest in him as part of their future when almost all the evidence suggests that is a foolish move for any RB coming off his rookie deal.

It just wasn't enough for him and his super agent.

I'm with Kapp - I'll root for the team and for any players on it. My livelihood isn't tied to it. But from an "average guy" perspective, especially when considering all of the economic uncertainty that so many people are facing right now, I kind of puke in my mouth when I think someone who plays football for a living thinks he's being disrespected by $1.5 million per year, much less the estimated $6-8 million per year the Vikings most likely offered him in extension.
Shamar Stephen is costing us 5 million this year in cap. Is missing out on a guy of his level going to hurt us?

1.5 million is a lot of money in the real world, but in the world of the NFL, it is obscenely low for what Cook provides. Kyle Rudolph is making 7 times that to be 35th in yards per game for TEs. Reiff is making ten times that to be a mediocre LT. Cousins is making almost 30 times that to play second fiddle to the run game, a run game that Cook is the most important part of. Heck, Diggs is costing us 8 times that to not play for us this year.
What's your point? We are happy to extend Cook for more than 1.5 million a year. However, that doesn't mean we should just add 5 Million to whatever the number is that we are willing to pay which I'm guessing is $10 million. Shamar Stephen has nothing to do with it.
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Re: Ruh-Roh, Cook Plans to Hold Out?

Post by StumpHunter » Tue Jun 23, 2020 5:46 pm

VikingsVictorious wrote:
Tue Jun 23, 2020 11:16 am
StumpHunter wrote:
Tue Jun 23, 2020 10:59 am

Shamar Stephen is costing us 5 million this year in cap. Is missing out on a guy of his level going to hurt us?

1.5 million is a lot of money in the real world, but in the world of the NFL, it is obscenely low for what Cook provides. Kyle Rudolph is making 7 times that to be 35th in yards per game for TEs. Reiff is making ten times that to be a mediocre LT. Cousins is making almost 30 times that to play second fiddle to the run game, a run game that Cook is the most important part of. Heck, Diggs is costing us 8 times that to not play for us this year.
What's your point? We are happy to extend Cook for more than 1.5 million a year. However, that doesn't mean we should just add 5 Million to whatever the number is that we are willing to pay which I'm guessing is $10 million. Shamar Stephen has nothing to do with it.
VikingLord said 4-6 million can be better used elsewhere, and 4-6 million for a single player typically lands you a Shamar Stephen type player. A guy who you won't miss if he weren't here and who might actually be hurting the team by stunting the growth of a more raw, younger player forced to sit behind him.

Just adding 5 million to whatever number the VIKINGS are willing to pay won't happen. They are only willing to pay what they are willing to pay. Adding 5 million to what the fans are willing to pay Cook is another story. Some guys don't think he is worth more than 6 million a year, some think he is worth 13. If we are adding 5 million to that 6 million number, it won't hurt the Vikings ability to sign free agents in a significant way.
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Re: Ruh-Roh, Cook Plans to Hold Out?

Post by VikingsVictorious » Tue Jun 23, 2020 11:33 pm

StumpHunter wrote:
Tue Jun 23, 2020 5:46 pm
VikingsVictorious wrote:
Tue Jun 23, 2020 11:16 am

What's your point? We are happy to extend Cook for more than 1.5 million a year. However, that doesn't mean we should just add 5 Million to whatever the number is that we are willing to pay which I'm guessing is $10 million. Shamar Stephen has nothing to do with it.
VikingLord said 4-6 million can be better used elsewhere, and 4-6 million for a single player typically lands you a Shamar Stephen type player. A guy who you won't miss if he weren't here and who might actually be hurting the team by stunting the growth of a more raw, younger player forced to sit behind him.

Just adding 5 million to whatever number the VIKINGS are willing to pay won't happen. They are only willing to pay what they are willing to pay. Adding 5 million to what the fans are willing to pay Cook is another story. Some guys don't think he is worth more than 6 million a year, some think he is worth 13. If we are adding 5 million to that 6 million number, it won't hurt the Vikings ability to sign free agents in a significant way.
yeah wasn't it Kapp who I highly respect talking the $4 million max. I thought you were saying that we should add $5million to what we were already offering and no IMO we shouldn't. Even with the Vikings holding all the leverage I don't see any way he signs for less than 10 million. If we aren't willing to go that high let's pack it in and trade him now.
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Re: Ruh-Roh, Cook Plans to Hold Out?

Post by VikingLord » Wed Jun 24, 2020 11:39 am

S197 wrote:
Tue Jun 23, 2020 2:09 am
VikingLord wrote:
Mon Jun 22, 2020 4:48 pm


And then there are games like the one against the 49ers in the playoffs where he was on the field and didn't make much of a difference.

I continue to be amazed that the myth of the Great Essential Star RB survives in Minnesota. Every team that played in a conference championship game last year did so without such a player, and yet in Minnesota, the future is bleak if they don't accede to Cook's demands.
That’s not what I said at all. I even specifically mentioned the SF game, which you curiously cropped out. The offense is dreadful when the running game doesn’t work. SF is a good example of this.

That is what this team is built around, defense and ball control. I’m not sure why you think that’s a myth. The key to stopping this team is stopping the run, not stopping Cousins.

Watch the highlights. This was Cousins supposed redemption game. A win against a winning team, on the road, in prime time.

https://youtu.be/5m-vAN7Uh_s

Who is carrying this team to a win? It’s very obvious it was Cook making the vast majority of the plays.
I don't think defense and ball control offense is a myth.

I think the notion that the offense can't run without Cook (or a player like him) is a myth.

Cook adds an explosive element to the run game, but run games don't have to be explosive to win, and in fact there is strong evidence that a "slow and steady wins the race" approach to running is far more effective when it comes to playoff success than a "big swing" approach. All things considered, I'd rather the Vikings invest in an offensive line that can effectively open running lanes for a stable of young, cheaper backs than invest in a single explosive star running back who has to often create a bunch of highlights breaking tackles and improvising behind a weaker line that is inconsistent at best.

Once again, the proof of both approaches is in the proverbial pudding, and based on what has been working for teams that are actually making it to division championship games and the Superbowl in recent years, it's not the teams paying big for the explosive star RB.
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Re: Ruh-Roh, Cook Plans to Hold Out?

Post by VikingLord » Wed Jun 24, 2020 11:49 am

StumpHunter wrote:
Tue Jun 23, 2020 10:59 am
Shamar Stephen is costing us 5 million this year in cap. Is missing out on a guy of his level going to hurt us?

1.5 million is a lot of money in the real world, but in the world of the NFL, it is obscenely low for what Cook provides. Kyle Rudolph is making 7 times that to be 35th in yards per game for TEs. Reiff is making ten times that to be a mediocre LT. Cousins is making almost 30 times that to play second fiddle to the run game, a run game that Cook is the most important part of. Heck, Diggs is costing us 8 times that to not play for us this year.
The point you're making is valid, and its one of the reasons why there used to be so many holdouts before the CBA got them under control. Players are going to compare their performance and relative impact to their peers all the time, and when that is the perspective, it does seem really unfair.

So what is the answer for a team like the Vikings? I'm honestly asking that, because it seems like in order to satisfy someone like Cook in this situation, it seems they have to get those dollars from someone else.
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Re: Ruh-Roh, Cook Plans to Hold Out?

Post by VikingLord » Wed Jun 24, 2020 12:04 pm

S197 wrote:
Tue Jun 23, 2020 2:09 am
Watch the highlights. This was Cousins supposed redemption game. A win against a winning team, on the road, in prime time.

https://youtu.be/5m-vAN7Uh_s

Who is carrying this team to a win? It’s very obvious it was Cook making the vast majority of the plays.
I enjoyed watching it, but I do have to point out that while Cook made quite a few highlight reel plays in that game, a hefty percentage of them were off screen passes, Rudolph scored 14 of the 28 points the offense scored that night (including one amazing grab on what amounted to an almost throw-away by Cousins), and Diggs also made many key catches. The defense also played well, including getting a key stop late in the 4th on 4th down.

Even after watching those highlights I can't agree Cook carried the team to that win. He made some nice plays and showed his explosiveness, but there were many other players who also made nice plays to get that win.
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Re: Ruh-Roh, Cook Plans to Hold Out?

Post by S197 » Wed Jun 24, 2020 2:24 pm

VikingLord wrote:
Wed Jun 24, 2020 12:04 pm
S197 wrote:
Tue Jun 23, 2020 2:09 am
Watch the highlights. This was Cousins supposed redemption game. A win against a winning team, on the road, in prime time.

https://youtu.be/5m-vAN7Uh_s

Who is carrying this team to a win? It’s very obvious it was Cook making the vast majority of the plays.
I enjoyed watching it, but I do have to point out that while Cook made quite a few highlight reel plays in that game, a hefty percentage of them were off screen passes, Rudolph scored 14 of the 28 points the offense scored that night (including one amazing grab on what amounted to an almost throw-away by Cousins), and Diggs also made many key catches. The defense also played well, including getting a key stop late in the 4th on 4th down.

Even after watching those highlights I can't agree Cook carried the team to that win. He made some nice plays and showed his explosiveness, but there were many other players who also made nice plays to get that win.
Carrying the team was poorly worded as I agree there were several players who stepped up at key moments. But it would be hard to argue that Cook was not the offensive showcase that night. He did it on the ground and through the air, even if they were predominantly screens. And that's basically my point, we don't really need a $30 million dollar QB to throw screen passes to your RB or a couple of 1-yard TD's to your TE. How many passes did Cousins have down field? There was the pass to Diggs, which looked badly underthrown but lets give him the benefit of the doubt and assume it was intentional based on the coverage. Other than that, maybe a 10-yard pass here and there?

Then you look at Dak. The guy was making ridiculous throws all night. Escaping pressure and extending plays. That's the type of plays you should be paying a QB to make.

And that's kind've how the season went. When the run game was clicking, the offense moved the ball. But there wasn't very many times where the pass game was able to bail out the running game when it wasn't working. It was more likely when the run game failed, the offense failed.
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