Seahawks post game thread

[Cliff]

It seems to be the perfect mix of having a pass-heavy OC, a control the clock (run-first) HC, a pocket QB who thrives on play action, a team that can't run the ball to set up the play action, and an offensive line that's been ignored for 5+ years.

I'm starting to fall off the Kirk bandwagon but the Flip hire seems to be one of the dumbest decisions this team has made since I've been a fan. Even if his offense was firing on all cylinders, Flip and Zimmer have polar opposite football strategies.

I don't think he's ready to be an OC in the NFL, honestly. He's still trying to run a college scheme. However, if his plan was firing on all cylinders I think it would be fine. The problem is that it's not. There is no defensive football strategy in the world that complements a "3 and outs without running much time off the clock" offense.

[Mothman]

Agreed with all your points, but these two in particular. Short yardage situations have been atrocious all season. Part of it is that our OL simply doesn't get enough push. But knowing that one would expect JDF to come up with some ways to deal with that. On 4th and 1 when he sent Murray into the pile I almost felt like JDF called for that just to "show" Zimmer that our OL sucks--as if to say, "what do you want me to do? You've taken all the top draft picks to build your D!".

Maybe that's the explanation.

The second point you bring up is so true--our screens are pathetic. There was one last night to the left where Cook had to wait for Reiff to do SOMETHING as he just stood in the way. Finally, Cook just got what he could, which was a few yards. Something is severely off with our screens. It may be coaching it may be execution. Elflein seems to be the only OL that can move and block.

It' possible that lack of athleticism is the main problem, although i wonder if they have a "tell" on screens? Opposing defenses never seem fooled by them.

Also: O'Neil got bullrushed non-stop last night. His pre-draft knock of lack of size and power were very evident.

I agree.

On a brighter note: I thought the Vikings did a great job of dialing up blitzes in the red zone yesterday. they were really effective and helped keep the score close. Whether that was Zimmer or Edwards, it was well done.

[VikingLord]

Also: O'Neil got bullrushed non-stop last night. His pre-draft knock of lack of size and power were very evident.

True, but we have to remember he's a rookie 2nd round pick thrust into a starting role, plus he'll hit the weights this offseason and come back better next season. He's got the feet to become an excellent starting tackle in the NFL I think.

But you're right - unfortunately, this year he's gotten victimized a few times by power rushers.

[Mothman]

Yeah, the offense is actually pretty "bargain bin" outside of the QB. The receivers the Vikings have that are very good are a 4th rounder and undrafted guy. They just happened to have panned out but that's really more luck than anything - especially in Thielen's case. The WR that they actually did make a real investment in isn't panning out. The offensive line ... do I really need to go there?

That said, it's hard to say the team is badly built given the success they had last season. Many of the same pieces are there.

Maybe "sensibly built" or "logically built" would be a better way to put it?

I think they caught lightning in a bottle last year and had the right combination of talent, luck , team chemistry and favorable schedule to get them so many wins. The playoffs revealed their shortcomings pretty quickly and this year, they look more like they 2016 team again.

Are the Vikes benefitting from weaker schedules in winning years and then sliding back when faced with a first place schedule the following year? I have no idea. I'm just wondering if anybody has scrutinized that.

I didn't think he called anything particularly special either but I can't think of what Shurmur might have done differently, exactly. Maybe I'm just not savvy enough to know the nuances of the coaching difference but the difference to me is player effectiveness, especially from the QB position. Whether or not he could repeat it aside, Keenum played better for the Vikings in my opinion. At least to this point.

I wholeheartedly agree.

Yeah, finding a QB for the team has not been his strong suit. To be fair though, I don't think Cousins was an easy decision. I can't blame him for making it, but in the end he did make it and it was the wrong one.

Either that or they didn't make enough decisions in support of that one. Maybe a different OC and better OL would be yielding better results with Cousins at QB.

I wish I'd written, "journeymen, busts and stopgaps" instead. That might have been more accurate.

[VikingLord]

I don't know what to say about the Vikings offense, but generally you have to start with the QB since he touches the ball on every play. And in my view, Cousins has been very shaky as of late. He's missing open receivers regularly (not missing them with poor accuracy, but missing seeing them at all), which tells me he's either not seeing the field, or he's focusing in on a particular area of the field and not really going through a progression, especially when he's being pressured. He's getting a lot of balls batted down. A lot of balls batted out, resulting in fumbles. Sure, some of that is the offensive line, but some of it is him. I don't see a lot of moxie in him. Some QBs come out and make you prove you can stop them. Cousins, he's trying to do the old "take what they give you". It's not working.

Of course, the offensive line has been a problem all year. That isn't going to change in the last 3 games, so it's up to the other parts of the offense and the offensive coordinator to find ways to work around that weakness. It's up to Spielman and Zimmer, should they remain in their present positions into next season, to find ways to address that weakness in the offseason via the draft, FA and/or trade.

The RBs and receivers I like. Treadwell should be gone next year, but they have other guys who can play. But offensively, the team needs an attitude adjustment, from the playcalling on down to the way the QB approaches each snap to, and maybe especially to, the offensive line. The Vikings could use 2 interior OG with a nasty streak. They need to improve at LT. I think O'Neill will be fine at RT next year. In fact, I could see him starting to get mentioned with the best in the league as early as next year. Not sure at center. Elflein had a very good rookie campaign. He's not been as effective this year, probably due to the injury issues he's had. But that's another position where the Vikings could use some 'tude.

And for bleep's sake... Address the kicking situation Spielman!

[720pete]

I saw way too many replays of Cousins' passes getting to the receivers late last night. Lots of complete/incomplete passes to Diggs and Thielen where both receivers turned around to look for the ball and the ball hadn't come out of Cousins' hands yet, then they end up standing there, open, waiting for the ball, and by the time the ball makes it there the Seattle secondary was there to defend the passes because they had time to react.

[mansquatch]

It isn't really hard to see the deficiency at OC. If we are seeing the team double our WR, that means our two guys on the outside are taking up 4 of their guys. Run 3rd WR and TE inside, plus the RB. That should allow us to take 5 Defensive players out by running deeper route concepts. At that point it is 8 vs 6. Overload one side and run Dalvin Cook to the edge or run a weakside cut and let Cook beat the defense to the edge. (Which he was doing.) That isn't freaking hard, yet we couldn't draw that play up to deal with what the defenses have been doing to us for the past 2 games. JDF is not ready for prime time.

This game was particularly embarrassing. EVERYONE knows the NFL is a copy cat league and JDF showed against NE that he couldn't defeat having his two star WR bracketed. He should have known that SEA would employ the same tactic. So draw up some stuff to beat it. He had a week to do draw it up and implement it. How hard is that? If JDF was really paying attention while he was in PHI he would do what Doug Pederson does and anticipate the adjustment to what he is doing and call plays that beat that to.

JDF has been a complete failure.

[Thaumaturgist]

And for bleep's sake... Address the kicking situation Spielman!

Just want to say, that I think he's tried, but with that many kickers come/gone, I think the problems lie deeper than any kicker they could draft or put in. I think Priefer needs to go.

IMHO, the whole dang organization could use a good house cleaning. I wanted to like Zimmer, and in a lot of ways I still do... He's had a rough go at the QB's and K's, and O'Line positions. How much of that is self induced, we may never know. I think his defenses have been figured out for the most part and the ceiling seems to have been reached. There has been way too much instability at the O-Coordinator/OLine coaches positions for my liking. How many play books do these guys have to learn. That combined with a lack of draft capitol in the trenches... Is it a wonder our offense is dysfunctional? It sucks when you have a good O-Coordinator, and they get sniped for the next best Head Coach. I get it, it's good opportunity for them, but for crying out loud, when you're loosing your Coordinator every year or two, it's hard to build any kind of consistency.

I've rambled on long enough, but I'll leave with I think I've had it with Spielman too. Again, I want to like him, and I think he's made some good decisions, but there are too many decisions that leave me befuddled.

I'm out. Thanks for letting me vent a bit!

[Pondering Her Percy]

And I honestly feel bad for cousins in a way because coming into this team, if he had the slightest mess up, every analyst, media, fan, etc is going to throw all the blame on him because of what he got paid. This team could have the last ranked defense in the nfl and Cousins would be getting blamed. As I said in his thread, he’s made his mistakes for sure but he is far from the problem. Seeing his Instagram and what idiotic fans comment on it makes me want to throw up. I literally HATE when our fans or any fans do crap like that. It makes our fan base look horrible. 2 years ago when Thielen fumbled the punt vs Dallas his wife and Thielen himself were getting threats on instagram over it. His wife had ended up posting about all of it after it happened. Adam Thielen of all people was getting threats.

But now those fans have a new guy to threaten. Adam Thielen fumbled against the saints and DRASTICALLY changed the result in that game but fans STILL go after cousins.

There are still quite a few fans out there that know to put most of the blame or flip, but there are still a lot of fans out there that throw it all on Cousins. Again, he’s not the problem. It happens on here. The amount of cousins hate going through the chat every week is ridiculous. I mean being called Ponder? The guy throws for over 4000 yards a year but since he’s throwing check downs the last few games because he has no time for plays to develop because of the OL and flip not adjusting, he’s “Ponder” now? Give me a break guys. Ponder couldn’t get to 4000 yards if he had double the games Cousins did in a year

Since you defend Cousins on almost every post, answer me this question. Do you consider a guy with a 4-25 record against winning teams a GOOD quarterback?

I dont defend him on almost every post. I just dont explode and overreact when he has some bad throws and scream "fu cousins" in the game chat like some do. Obviously the record is concerning. But it's also hard to judge when he was at a dysfunctional franchise like Washington. But bottom line is, when you weigh Kirk Cousins vs. Flip, it's not even close when it comes to who the bigger problem is. Go read the tweets and little stats that came out today.

Without implementing a running game, having a poor OL and inconsistent playcalling, the Vikings are asking Kirk Cousins to be something he is not and that's a catalyst. He's not a QB that can overcome having sub-par surroundings.

^Couldnt be more accurate.

Going back through play by play, Vikings faced 3rd or 4th in short (3 yards or less) NINE times last night. They dropped back to pass 5 times, had 2 QB sneaks and 2 runs. Lined up in shotgun 5 times.

^Is that on Kirk Cousins? He's not calling these plays. 2 runs? One being Murray that was so blatantly obvious it's not even funny.

Cousins said his tablet pictures on sideline showed Seattle "literally dropped, it appeared 9 defenders, into pass coverage", constantly doubled Thielen and Diggs. Part of Seattle using 7 DBs for the FIRST time this season. Carroll calls it "bandit" from 2010.

Dropping NINE! That is Flip not ADJUSTING. And I could be wrong but werent you the one calling Cousins "Ponder" in the chat because of checkdowns? They were dropping NINE!! What do you want him to possibly do?! Drop 9 against any QB in a throwing situation. They are checking the ball down 10 times out of 10. They ended up showing pictures of when Seattle dropped all those guys. They were literally rushing TWO guys. 2! Why? Because it's blatantly obvious when we're passing and blatantly obvious when we're running. Flip hasnt made an adjustment all season. Not once.

I get it that guys are worried about his record but I can honestly say, the way flip has this offense set up and what he is doing sure isnt helping Cousins by any means

[Pondering Her Percy]

Another tweet to add in.....

Did the Vikings think that Kirk Cousins would give them MORE than Case Keenum gave them last season? Not necessarily but they protected themselves from the inevitable Keenum regression and took a more stable option but they werent getting Tom Brady in Cousins

That's what fans arent recognizing. The INEVITABLE regression of Keenum. It's being ignored in Denver right now. Everything is being based off of one "miracle" (literally) year mixed in with a bunch of wildly inconsistent years and backup duties. Enough with defending Keenum. That ship has sailed and so has Keenum's luck

[PacificNorseWest]

Each team still in the hunt for the 6th seed has a game or two they could definitely lose. The 6th seed may be boasting 8 wins come playoff time. That's happened before with a division winner, but I can't remember it happening for the wild card.

You honestly think that this team can go anywhere in the playoffs if they were to be a wild card. After watching the coaches fail, the QB fail, the Oline utterly fail, and Zimmer lost faith of everyone not on the Defense, and the failing of a GM, I think it is much more likely the Vikings do not win another game this year. Something is broke on this team, and I think we have to look from the top on down. But I doubt the Wilfs have the football sense to make any bold moves if this season continues on the way it has been. Yeah, they will probably get rid of Deflip, but I doubt that solves much at all. But I guess it would be a start, untill next year at this time people are blaming the new OC again.

They don't look good, but if they get in, you never know man. Weird stuff like that can happen. I'm not saying it's likely or banking on it happening, but remaining optimistic about it. My post was more about how crazy it is that the WC may only have 8 wins.

[Maelstrom88]

My observations:

Offensive playcalling wasn't good but it's hard to sustain offense with a line this bad. Still, he could have kept in extra blockers.

The defense wasn't that great. Sure they held Wilson to low numbers but who did he have yo throw to? Better yet, why throw when you can run for over 200. If you give up 200 yards rushing it isn't a good day defensively
Also, without a bonehead play from Wilson where Kendricks was lucky they would have scored more.

Officiating clearly favored Seattle with the pi put of bounds and the th block then roughing the kicker.

Kirk is the type of Qb who needs a strong oline and running attack.

They need a better power back who can break arm tackles and push the pile.

I don't think Zimmer is the guy to lead this team to a Lombardi trophy.

This team is not playoff worthy.

[Cliff]

Another tweet to add in.....

Did the Vikings think that Kirk Cousins would give them MORE than Case Keenum gave them last season? Not necessarily but they protected themselves from the inevitable Keenum regression and took a more stable option but they werent getting Tom Brady in Cousins

That's what fans arent recognizing. The INEVITABLE regression of Keenum. It's being ignored in Denver right now. Everything is being based off of one "miracle" (literally) year mixed in with a bunch of wildly inconsistent years and backup duties. Enough with defending Keenum. That ship has sailed and so has Keenum's luck

Meanwhile, the team Keenum is on already has one more win than they did last year and the one Cousins went to already has 3.5 more losses. Additionally the team Cousins came from was on pace to do much better without him until Alex Smith went down.

Anyway, you're right, Keenum is gone and Cousins is the guy and likely will be for 2 more seasons. I hope he can put it together but all of the complaints coming out of Washington we're finding to be true and not just because Washington was a bad team.

[Pondering Her Percy]

Another tweet to add in.....



That's what fans arent recognizing. The INEVITABLE regression of Keenum. It's being ignored in Denver right now. Everything is being based off of one "miracle" (literally) year mixed in with a bunch of wildly inconsistent years and backup duties. Enough with defending Keenum. That ship has sailed and so has Keenum's luck

Meanwhile, the team Keenum is on already has one more win than they did last year and the one Cousins went to already has 3.5 more losses. Additionally the team Cousins came from was on pace to do much better without him until Alex Smith went down.

Anyway, you're right, Keenum is gone and Cousins is the guy and likely will be for 2 more seasons. I hope he can put it together but all of the complaints coming out of Washington we're finding to be true and not just because Washington was a bad team.

If Keenum doesn’t improve a team that was led by Trevor Siemien and Paxton Lynch last year , then he’s probably one of the worst QBs in franchise history lol

[Cliff]

Meanwhile, the team Keenum is on already has one more win than they did last year and the one Cousins went to already has 3.5 more losses. Additionally the team Cousins came from was on pace to do much better without him until Alex Smith went down.

Anyway, you're right, Keenum is gone and Cousins is the guy and likely will be for 2 more seasons. I hope he can put it together but all of the complaints coming out of Washington we're finding to be true and not just because Washington was a bad team.

If Keenum doesn’t improve a team that was led by Trevor Siemien and Paxton Lynch last year , then he’s probably one of the worst QBs in franchise history lol

I dunno ... how many more wins do you see the Broncos having with Cousins at the helm? We just went from "Not bad, but not a difference maker" to "Pretty good, but not a difference maker" at quarterback. Considering the commitment made by the team it's just sour grapes from me, really.