Is it Ponder or the O line

[purpletinted66]

I understand the argument about Ponder being "THE CAUSE" his play is dreadfull and embarrassing but I don't understand the blind belief that this defense is not directly responsible for the last 2 losses when you look at the fact that the team had the lead with 3 minutes left in both games and it was the defense (not Ponder) who allowed both Chicago and Cleveland to waltz down the field and score on their final drive to win both games. This point simply can not be argued. What happened prior to the last drive is not material any more than what did or did not happen in the 1st half.

I am not a Ponder supporter, I would love to see if Cassell could light a fire under these bums but when all is said and done this is really one of those which came 1st the chicken or the egg issues and believe it or not.....some things are not Ponders fault.

sure there are cases where poor defense is the spoiler of all efforts. however my persuasion is that the defense can be stout by comparison when the potential of our offense is realized. since there is no poise being demonstrated at qb, we also do not have the glimpse of a great offense which manages ball position, clock, does not turn it over and scores upon will. the fact is however, browns are pretty stout (esp. on def. - and that mingo fellow looks to be a terror), and can give a brawl to top tiered teams any given week of the season.

[Webbfann]

Good, well let's bench Ponder and let him be the best guy on the team.

The best player on a team is the backup QB when the starting QB is not doing well.

[PurpleKoolaid]

At least lets find out if Cassel and MBT are worth having for next year. BoyBlunder isn't.

[Juice]

Ponder, terrible pass blocking, inconsistent run game. Too many negative to no gain runs which could be attributed to a number of things. I think getting Felton back could be a big help. If he can help open up some holes for AP and get the run game going, hopefully it will help the open up the pass game... Hopefully.

[CbusVikesFan]

It's the whole fricking team. The defense cant get off the field. No imagination by Williams. It took until the 3rd qtr for them to start blitzing. The pass rush is very suspect. The back seven didn't start playing until Sherels got in there and he made several key tackles but a lone bright spot today.
The O-line is porous as a sponge. They cant block from ####. Loadholt should be called "doorknob". Kalil has been disappointing. And supposedly we have two guards.
Then there is Ponder. He sucks. He sucks bad. Overthrow, underthrow, no pocket recognition, no audibles(thank the stars), no timing, and no awareness of open receivers. He can run for first downs, big whoop. I say he should pull a Forrest Gump, take off running and keep going out of the tunnel and out of Minny. I am so done with the Ponder experiment.

Coaches: I never liked Musgrave, he about ruined Matt Ryan before he was fired at Atlanta. Williams is not better. They both suck, and both should be fired.
Frazier should be let go because he is the ring leader.

I never liked facing a team coming off of a loss. Pitt lost to the Bears.
Can you say 0-4?
This team is a joke. A bad joke told by a bad comedian. I am embarrassed as a fan.

[Reignman]

Good, well let's bench Ponder and let him be the best guy on the team.

I can appreciate the outside the box thinking there. Put him on the bench if you want Ponder to become the fan fav.

I think getting Felton back could be a big help. If he can help open up some holes for AP and get the run game going, hopefully it will help the open up the pass game... Hopefully.

It's possible, but we're really just moving the goal posts now. We thought we were bad in preseason because we didn't have AD. Just wait until AD is on the field. I was guilty of it too, but no, we're just a bad team from top to bottom. If Felton turns our season around, then we better pay the man lol.

Coaches: I never liked Musgrave, he about ruined Matt Ryan before he was fired at Atlanta. Williams is not better. They both suck, and both should be fired.
Frazier should be let go because he is the ring leader.

You make some good points. Some say Ryan's early career mirrors that of Ponder, now we know why lol. Williams was the Colts DB coach when they had possibly the worst secondary in NFL history a couple years ago. And we're all familiar with Fraziers below averarge defenses as coordinator here and yet he was still handed the head job. The reason this team is bad is staring us right in the face.

[King James]

Here are some questions asked to Ponder from press conference after the loss to the Browns.
http://www.vikings.com/news/article-1/P ... 4eac6cbbee

Q: What’s the biggest thing you need to turn around now? Is it consistency?

A: I’m not sure. The whole thing is lack of execution and we’ll have to see on the film what the deal is. I think all 22 guys and special teams can all play better, especially the offense. We can control what we can control and we have to fix it otherwise we’re going to be 0-16.

Q: What specifically do you have to do running and passing to get better?

A: We’ll see the film and see exactly what we’ll have to fix, but it’s just execution. We have to complete balls and make blocks, there’s a ton of things we can do better.

Q: Why did you throw a bad ball on that third and five? Was it because of pressure?

A: It was quick throw and we’ll have to see on film, I don’t know. I kind of changed my throwing angle a little bit and I just missed him. That’s typically a ball I can complete 99 out of 100 times and unfortunately that was the one miss.

Q: Did you change the throwing angle because of the pressure?

A: I don’t know, I don’t know if there was a guy in the window, it was all reaction. We will have to see on the film exactly what happened.

Look at the part I bolded. Ponder is a freaking idiot How much FILM does he to see that he is terrible. Ponder is just as predictable talking to the press as he is on the field. Its always the same excuse every damn game. "We need to look at the film to see what happened." "We need to find ways to execute better." "It just didn't go our way this time."

Same song every year, enough with the excuses Ponder, you suck!!!!!!!!!!!!!

[vikingsfansince07]

how nice would it be if we ran AD up the middle from more of those 4 wide formations instead of always from the bunch formation? It would be such an easy thing for Musgrave to do and it would make him look more imaginative. Not to mention AD would probably average 8 YPC.

I agree with this completely. Why is it they run a play that works pretty good then all they do is flip it and run again. And they do bunch everyone up way to much, it makes no sense, its like they are advertising, "hey where about to run can you tell because all our receivers are next to our lineman". They are so predictable by doing this. I can tell 90% of the time when they are going to run the ball and I am not good at defense at all.

[majorm]

All I have to say on the subject is Aaron Rodgers has seemed to do okay with a less than stellar O-Line in front of him at times.

[John_Viveiros]

Lots of talk here about the defense giving up last seconds TDs in the last two games. A couple thoughts:

The rules are bent pretty heavily towards the offense now. Good QBs throwing perfect passes to good receivers will always be able to move the ball, regardless of how good the defense is. And for sure, that last Hoyer throw was perfect.

Second is a point I have been trying to make since the 1994 season: winning QBs are the one who can sustain late drives. Back then, for all his yardage, Warren Moon could not salt away the last few minutes of a game, and we lost a bunch of games that were there for the taking. Meanwhile, noodle-armed Brad Johnson was fabulous in those situations. The Vikes (and Bucs) over-performed with Johnson, because he tended to preserve any late lead. Ponder clearly can't do that. My interpretation is that he is under-average with making the necessary reads.

Ponder has brains and athletic ability, but for whatever reason, his brain doesn't work the right way to allow him to figure out where he should be throwing. It was worth the effort to see if he could. But I think we know now.

[PurpleHalo]

I'm with most of you here now in that I think Ponder doesn't deserve to be starting.
Unfortunately, though, even with Tom Brady at QB with this Vikings team up 3 or 6 points and 3 minutes to go... we're gonna lose anyway.
Ponder's mistakes haven't lost the games, the defenses mistakes have.
Ponder hasn't been winning us the games, though, where a better QB could.

Flawed logic...

This team would have been up by more with a real passer.

[Just Me]

It's the coaching first and foremost. What we have is a regression in every facet of the game right now. Yes, there are key areas of deficiency within the players but when you have such widespread dysfunction, you need to look further up the chain of command. It's no different than any other business. I think the only person on the team that doesn't look like he's taken a step back is Blair Walsh. Everyone else to some degree has regressed. Offense, defense, and special teams, it's bad everywhere. That's just a horrible sign of leadership. When there's something this wrong, you start at the top and work your way down. If a bank lost $50 million dollars in a year, they wouldn't be arguing over whether it's the teller or the loan officer's fault, the CEO would be given his walking papers.

The expression, "those who do not learn from history are doomed to repeat it" rings true. Vikings fans are spewing their venom at Ponder and Musgrave exactly like they did at Tarvaris and Bevell. The root of the problem is we never really got rid of all of the problem in the first place and until that's done, the pawns will change but the game stays the same.

This^

In pre-season I was "concerned" about execution and we had several threads about it. "It's pre-season" and "We run a vanilla offense" so as not to tip our hand were the prevailing beliefs, I'll confess I even had a hard time believing that our (previously) 10-6 Vikes had regressed in execution to that extent, so the explanations made sense to a degree. Now, however, it appears our execution has been every bit as bad/inconsistent as it was in the pre-season. We really had a "prediction" of what this team might be this season, but few (myself included) wanted to believe it.

In looking at the team we lost two "impact" players: Antoine Winfield and Percy Harvin. We picked up some talent (I believe) in Rhodes and Patterson. Frankly, while not "a wash", the talent loss should not be this significant. What exacerbates the situation is that the players that allegedly offset the talent loss of Winfield and Harvin, are infrequently used in the game. This is a coaches decision for the depth chart and player's assignments, so Frazier "owns it." I like Frazier. While some like the animated coaching style, I like the "zen master" approach where nothing seems to faze the coach (ala Bud Grant). Having said that, we are still just speaking about leadership "styles" and it is not necessarily an indicator of the leaders effectiveness. If this team regresses to..say...a 3-13 season (or worse) which certainly seems possible at this point, the leader's effectiveness is obviously terrible. If the season continues down this path, I believe the Vikings should "clean house." It stinks to "start over" but in the end, it might be the best thing.

[purplehaze]

All I have to say on the subject is Aaron Rodgers has seemed to do okay with a less than stellar O-Line in front of him at times.

Word. O-line Smo-Line!!!!! Did not Rodgers get sacked the most out of any QB last year? To be honest I cannot believe the title of this thread.

[allday1991]

Flawed logic...

This team would have been up by more with a real passer.

Not to mention Ponder turning the ball over two times a game didn't make the difference, all the defences fault

[RayB73001]

The OL was awful and so was the defense but to not recognize the Vikings are at a disadvantage every game because of Ponder's limitations is just putting your head into the sand. He is out of his league and should be out of this one.