PHP's Early Mock Offseason

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StumpHunter
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Re: PHP's Early Mock Offseason

Post by StumpHunter » Wed Jan 29, 2020 7:24 am

Pondering Her Percy wrote:
Tue Jan 28, 2020 2:56 pm
Dames wrote:
Tue Jan 28, 2020 10:19 am
Really enjoyable PHP, as always. Thanks for all the hard work.


Thanks man!
I think trading Rhodes might be difficult with his contract, but it's not like his talent just disappeared. I'm sure there is someone out there who believes they can get him back on track. (Zim probably believes that too I'm sure.)
I think it could be difficult too but I was honing in on which teams needed desperate help in terms of pass defense and who had a lot of cap. I then looked for guys on rosters like Houston, Miami, Tampa, Indy that interested me and filled a "need" for us. I think a team with plenty of cap room and a bad pass defense takes that chance.
I'm with Jim on the Cook extension. I would prefer they wait. 4 years, 30M isn't bad, and if he stays healthy, it could be a really good deal. I'm worried about his injury history though.
I mean he's a RB. Injuries are going to happen more often to him than others 99% of the time. I dont think blowing your knee out makes you injury prone. It's simply bad luck. Constant soft tissue injuries and such are what I see as injury prone. The hamstring in 2018 was worrisome but this year it simply had to do with how he was hit in the shoulder. Which comes with the position IMO.
Cutting Reiff scares me, because the situation could actually get worse. That's a really important decision for the Vikings. I'm not sure I understand your strong dislike for him though. He was not fantastic, but I don't think that he was a big problem either. Maybe your plan to fill his spot would be okay. It's just such a hard position to fill. The cap savings will likely drive the decision though, so seeing him gone would not be a surprise at least.
It scares me too but I've always said with Reiff, when he's bad, he's BAD. Like if you get any worse Kirk Cousins is going to be leaving on a stretcher. Like that bad. But there are other times you wont see him give up a sack. I've been pushing this since last year but I think putting Brian O'Neill at LT is a no brainer. He is young, athletic, an elite pass blocker, etc. We arent going to be picking high anytime soon to land a top LT in the draft and they rarely hit FA. Reiff on Cousins' blindside terrifies me. If he was at least on Cousins right side, Kirk can see the guy coming. Or we can simply go out and find a RT much easier than a left tackle. I just think keeping O'Neill at RT when you have an insanely slow footed LT that gets dominated by speed rushers, you arent doing yourself any favors. Put a guy on Kirk's blindside that he can trust.
Reiff only gave up 5 sacks this season. He is a solid LT and we have no idea if Oneil would be any better at that spot.
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Re: PHP's Early Mock Offseason

Post by CharVike » Wed Jan 29, 2020 7:58 am

StumpHunter wrote:
Wed Jan 29, 2020 7:24 am
Pondering Her Percy wrote:
Tue Jan 28, 2020 2:56 pm


Thanks man!



I think it could be difficult too but I was honing in on which teams needed desperate help in terms of pass defense and who had a lot of cap. I then looked for guys on rosters like Houston, Miami, Tampa, Indy that interested me and filled a "need" for us. I think a team with plenty of cap room and a bad pass defense takes that chance.

I mean he's a RB. Injuries are going to happen more often to him than others 99% of the time. I dont think blowing your knee out makes you injury prone. It's simply bad luck. Constant soft tissue injuries and such are what I see as injury prone. The hamstring in 2018 was worrisome but this year it simply had to do with how he was hit in the shoulder. Which comes with the position IMO.



It scares me too but I've always said with Reiff, when he's bad, he's BAD. Like if you get any worse Kirk Cousins is going to be leaving on a stretcher. Like that bad. But there are other times you wont see him give up a sack. I've been pushing this since last year but I think putting Brian O'Neill at LT is a no brainer. He is young, athletic, an elite pass blocker, etc. We arent going to be picking high anytime soon to land a top LT in the draft and they rarely hit FA. Reiff on Cousins' blindside terrifies me. If he was at least on Cousins right side, Kirk can see the guy coming. Or we can simply go out and find a RT much easier than a left tackle. I just think keeping O'Neill at RT when you have an insanely slow footed LT that gets dominated by speed rushers, you arent doing yourself any favors. Put a guy on Kirk's blindside that he can trust.
Reiff only gave up 5 sacks this season. He is a solid LT and we have no idea if Oneil would be any better at that spot.
I've rag on Reiff more than any poster. But as some have pointed out he was horrible but when he's bad those few games he looks like he shouldn't be playing. Who knows what O'neil would be at LT. He plays fine were he is so why screw with him. He could get blown away by these speed guys.
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Re: PHP's Early Mock Offseason

Post by VikeFanInEagleLand » Wed Jan 29, 2020 7:58 am

J. Kapp 11 wrote:
Tue Jan 28, 2020 12:30 pm
Mothman wrote:
Mon Jan 27, 2020 6:38 pm
Cook is obviously talented but he's had one excellent season in 3 years. He finished 2019 10th in rushing and 7th in total yards from scrimmage. Those are excellent results but thus far, his career doesn't suggest the rarefied air of players like Barry Sanders or (to get closer to the Vikings) Adrian Peterson. Maybe he'll prove to be that good but in Cook's best season thus far, 9 RBs gained more rushing yards and 6 players gained more yards (presumably, they aren't all generational talents).

The Vikings would be wise to pause and think about Sidney Rice before giving Cook a lucrative deal. He missed quite a bit of time in his first 2 seasons, had a huge year in 2009 and then played 5 games in 2010, his last season with the Vikings. Hopefully, things will work out better with Cook.

Of course, Robert Smith missed a lot of time early in his Vikings career and eventually went on to have some huge seasons. You never know how these things will go but Cook is under contract. They don't need to sign him to a new contract yet, even if he wants one.
You know, it's hard to refute what you've said here.

Around Week 14 or 15, I started a thread asking whether we should be concerned at the slowdown in the Vikings rushing attack. Over the first 10 weeks of the season, we averaged 153 YPG on the ground, with only two games fewer than 100 yards. But over the next 5 games, we averaged just 85.8 YPG before our backups put up 174 to close out the season against the Bears. Meanwhile, Dalvin Cook rushed for 991 yards in the first 10 games, but only 144 yards the rest of the way (in four games, averaging just 36 YPG and 3.2 YPC). Yes, he was dinged up ... that's sort of the point.

Nobody seemed concerned. But I certainly was. As opponents schemed to stop Cook, they discovered the double bonus of a passing game that couldn't pick up the slack because it was dependent on successfully running the ball. Consequently, we lost 3 of our last 4 to close out the regular season.

We ran the ball effectively against New Orleans and won, but the formula got proven once again by SF, who shut down our running game and kept our defense on the field for 40 minutes.

So while I love Dalvin Cook and marvel at what he brings to this offense when healthy, I just don't know how healthy he is going to be going forward. Is he worth extending? I'd say that depends on the price. I'd hate to lose Cook, but if his price is going to be in LeVeon Bell range, the answer has to be "no" IMO.

Here's the other thing. Gary Kubiak is famous for making 1,000 yard rushers out of practically thin air. Guys like Reuben Droughns and Justin Forsett came out of nowhere to put up huge numbers when Kubiak ran their offenses. Arian Foster down in Houston was undrafted and became a star under Kubiak. Does Kubiak really NEED a high-priced running back to succeed?

The Cook decision, while not immediate, may be the most difficult of all.
It always appears to me that at the beginning of the season, Cook puts 150% into every run....to the point where he sacrifices his body. I think as the year goes on, his body wears down. I think there is much to be said for the fact that opposing defenses were keying on stopping the run, but if you noticed, his yards after contact fell off dramatically by the end of the year. (I don't have proof of this, so if someone could find that stat...) I could definitely see his style of running leading to more injuries.
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Re: PHP's Early Mock Offseason

Post by Pondering Her Percy » Wed Jan 29, 2020 8:23 am

StumpHunter wrote:
Wed Jan 29, 2020 7:24 am
Pondering Her Percy wrote:
Tue Jan 28, 2020 2:56 pm


Thanks man!



I think it could be difficult too but I was honing in on which teams needed desperate help in terms of pass defense and who had a lot of cap. I then looked for guys on rosters like Houston, Miami, Tampa, Indy that interested me and filled a "need" for us. I think a team with plenty of cap room and a bad pass defense takes that chance.

I mean he's a RB. Injuries are going to happen more often to him than others 99% of the time. I dont think blowing your knee out makes you injury prone. It's simply bad luck. Constant soft tissue injuries and such are what I see as injury prone. The hamstring in 2018 was worrisome but this year it simply had to do with how he was hit in the shoulder. Which comes with the position IMO.



It scares me too but I've always said with Reiff, when he's bad, he's BAD. Like if you get any worse Kirk Cousins is going to be leaving on a stretcher. Like that bad. But there are other times you wont see him give up a sack. I've been pushing this since last year but I think putting Brian O'Neill at LT is a no brainer. He is young, athletic, an elite pass blocker, etc. We arent going to be picking high anytime soon to land a top LT in the draft and they rarely hit FA. Reiff on Cousins' blindside terrifies me. If he was at least on Cousins right side, Kirk can see the guy coming. Or we can simply go out and find a RT much easier than a left tackle. I just think keeping O'Neill at RT when you have an insanely slow footed LT that gets dominated by speed rushers, you arent doing yourself any favors. Put a guy on Kirk's blindside that he can trust.
Reiff only gave up 5 sacks this season. He is a solid LT and we have no idea if Oneil would be any better at that spot.
Agreed we have no idea what O’Neill would be like at LT. He did play some LT at Pitt early in college but moved to RT. I just think we’re going to have trouble finding a legit LT.

As for Reiff, I think he’s far from solid. I would say below average. On Luke Braun’s podcast he said throughout the year he graded from the 40’s-60’s when it comes to starting tackles across the league. Which is below average but I don’t always agree with PFFs OL grades. In 2018 Reiff started to get beat outside by speed rushers more often than not, look at the buffalo game against Jerry Hughes as just one example. His problem is he doesn’t have the quickness to get outside where O’Neill does. However this year, I feel like Reiff probably recognized that he was getting beat outside too easily and he was “over” kick sliding out too far against these speed rushers and ended up getting beat inside too often. Zadarius Smith was one guy that exposed that. I will say there are games you don’t need to mention reiffs name but then there are games where he doesn’t even look like he can be a backup tackle. He isn’t getting any younger and is getting paid a lot. O’Neill has given up 1 sack in two seasons (and that sack was at the end of this year). That’s pretty darn elite if you ask me. Maybe moving O’Neill isn’t the answer but I also don’t think Reiff is the answer at LT either. Going to be interesting to see what they do here. I’m seeing talk now that they could move Reiff to LG. And I have no idea if that’s a good thing or a bad thing but if he does move to LG he needs to be restructured for sure.

On a side note, Braun mentioned the other day that Josh Kline graded out as a top 5 pass blocking guard in the last 5 games of the year. He actually had tied grades with Marshal Yanda who’s one of the best guards in football. I never realized that but this is why I advocated so much for Kline when he was signed last year because he was always known as a good pass blocker even though he struggled in 2018 in Tennessee. Not saying he’s some great guard but I think this was a very good under the radar signing by us. Our right side is set for now, I’m willing to give Bradbury time obviously, but our left side scares me. Especially given that it’s our QBs blindside and he’s not a mobile QB. I really hope we address this heavily this year.
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Re: PHP's Early Mock Offseason

Post by CharVike » Wed Jan 29, 2020 8:50 am

VikeFanInEagleLand wrote:
Wed Jan 29, 2020 7:58 am
J. Kapp 11 wrote:
Tue Jan 28, 2020 12:30 pm

You know, it's hard to refute what you've said here.

Around Week 14 or 15, I started a thread asking whether we should be concerned at the slowdown in the Vikings rushing attack. Over the first 10 weeks of the season, we averaged 153 YPG on the ground, with only two games fewer than 100 yards. But over the next 5 games, we averaged just 85.8 YPG before our backups put up 174 to close out the season against the Bears. Meanwhile, Dalvin Cook rushed for 991 yards in the first 10 games, but only 144 yards the rest of the way (in four games, averaging just 36 YPG and 3.2 YPC). Yes, he was dinged up ... that's sort of the point.

Nobody seemed concerned. But I certainly was. As opponents schemed to stop Cook, they discovered the double bonus of a passing game that couldn't pick up the slack because it was dependent on successfully running the ball. Consequently, we lost 3 of our last 4 to close out the regular season.

We ran the ball effectively against New Orleans and won, but the formula got proven once again by SF, who shut down our running game and kept our defense on the field for 40 minutes.

So while I love Dalvin Cook and marvel at what he brings to this offense when healthy, I just don't know how healthy he is going to be going forward. Is he worth extending? I'd say that depends on the price. I'd hate to lose Cook, but if his price is going to be in LeVeon Bell range, the answer has to be "no" IMO.

Here's the other thing. Gary Kubiak is famous for making 1,000 yard rushers out of practically thin air. Guys like Reuben Droughns and Justin Forsett came out of nowhere to put up huge numbers when Kubiak ran their offenses. Arian Foster down in Houston was undrafted and became a star under Kubiak. Does Kubiak really NEED a high-priced running back to succeed?

The Cook decision, while not immediate, may be the most difficult of all.
It always appears to me that at the beginning of the season, Cook puts 150% into every run....to the point where he sacrifices his body. I think as the year goes on, his body wears down. I think there is much to be said for the fact that opposing defenses were keying on stopping the run, but if you noticed, his yards after contact fell off dramatically by the end of the year. (I don't have proof of this, so if someone could find that stat...) I could definitely see his style of running leading to more injuries.
Maybe he'll mature into the role. He looked like an all time great early in the season. He could do everything at a high level. IDK the answer but it goes beyond teams game planning for him. I'm sure they all did that early also. Kubs system has been around a long time. Coaches know what it is. Even Matti seemed to wear down. He was a high carry guy in college. But this is a different deal. These NFL guys can fly and they will lay the wood to you. But we can't sell the farm to keep Cook.
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Re: PHP's Early Mock Offseason

Post by Pondering Her Percy » Wed Jan 29, 2020 9:19 am

CharVike wrote:
Wed Jan 29, 2020 8:50 am
VikeFanInEagleLand wrote:
Wed Jan 29, 2020 7:58 am


It always appears to me that at the beginning of the season, Cook puts 150% into every run....to the point where he sacrifices his body. I think as the year goes on, his body wears down. I think there is much to be said for the fact that opposing defenses were keying on stopping the run, but if you noticed, his yards after contact fell off dramatically by the end of the year. (I don't have proof of this, so if someone could find that stat...) I could definitely see his style of running leading to more injuries.
Maybe he'll mature into the role. He looked like an all time great early in the season. He could do everything at a high level. IDK the answer but it goes beyond teams game planning for him. I'm sure they all did that early also. Kubs system has been around a long time. Coaches know what it is. Even Matti seemed to wear down. He was a high carry guy in college. But this is a different deal. These NFL guys can fly and they will lay the wood to you. But we can't sell the farm to keep Cook.
I think seeing guys wear down in this type of offense is somewhat expected given how often we not only run the football but use our backs as pass catchers. This was another reason drafting Mattison was so important.
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Re: PHP's Early Mock Offseason

Post by Pondering Her Percy » Wed Jan 29, 2020 9:26 am

CharVike wrote:
Wed Jan 29, 2020 7:10 am
You did a great job with this. It's tough getting to that type of detail. Some interesting FA signings. The Eagles appear to have a deep team. Signing that OT makes sense along with the CB. That DT would also be a good signing.That WR makes sense. We need a body. Having 2 and nothing just doesn't make much sense. However that Bisi WR has to be given some credit. The guy actually contributed which is a shock for a 7th rounder. Plus he plays a position that generally takes time. Your draft was pointed right were it should be. DL, OL and CB. I don't like that QB drafted because if a guy can't pass he's not a QB. The guys you have hitting the road is fine also. I don't think a team will trade for Rhodes. We can't get that lucky. But again good job and a good read for me. Thanks.
As for Jalen Hurts, the same was thought about Lamar Jackson. I was one that always said he wasnt much of a thrower either and he proved me wrong this year. I still dont think he's exceptional by any means but better than expected. Hurts is similar in the sense that he's a freak athlete that has throwing question marks. In the 6th round, I think its 100% worth a shot.

As for mentioning Bisi as a 7th rounder. One thing I will say about Spielman is that I know a lot of guys gripe about loading up on late round picks every draft but we have hit on quite a few 7th rounders. Just within the last few years we have Bisi, Odenigbo, Weatherly, Kearse and Stephen. I'm guessing we HAVE to be top 3 (probably #1) in the league when it comes to hitting on players in the late rounds. Some of the credit definitely goes to Andre Patterson because he's probably the best DL coach in the NFL but regardless, we've had some solid picks late.

And as for Rhodes, I mentioned earlier somewhere that I can see a team that has a bad pass defense and a lot of cap space making that trade. Houston is one of them. Other options are Miami, Indy and TB.
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Re: PHP's Early Mock Offseason

Post by mansquatch » Wed Jan 29, 2020 10:13 am

I'm not sure Rhodes will garner trade offers, but it is possible. Zimmer loves the guy so that might nix it.

I love the idea of the FA moves, but I'm leary. Daniels on the surface is a brilliant suggestion, but I wonder how bad the injury toll really is? I was very surprised GB let him go. Now he is on the market again a season later. Two Front Offices cutting him in back to back seasons... not sure that adds up to good things.

The Eagles Tackle is a great suggestion hopefully they can get him. Scary part there is you jettison your LT and then you have to have a guy going into what could be Superbowl Window season. That is downright scary.
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Re: PHP's Early Mock Offseason

Post by StumpHunter » Wed Jan 29, 2020 10:13 am

Pondering Her Percy wrote:
Wed Jan 29, 2020 8:23 am
StumpHunter wrote:
Wed Jan 29, 2020 7:24 am

Reiff only gave up 5 sacks this season. He is a solid LT and we have no idea if Oneil would be any better at that spot.
Agreed we have no idea what O’Neill would be like at LT. He did play some LT at Pitt early in college but moved to RT. I just think we’re going to have trouble finding a legit LT.

As for Reiff, I think he’s far from solid. I would say below average. On Luke Braun’s podcast he said throughout the year he graded from the 40’s-60’s when it comes to starting tackles across the league. Which is below average but I don’t always agree with PFFs OL grades. In 2018 Reiff started to get beat outside by speed rushers more often than not, look at the buffalo game against Jerry Hughes as just one example. His problem is he doesn’t have the quickness to get outside where O’Neill does. However this year, I feel like Reiff probably recognized that he was getting beat outside too easily and he was “over” kick sliding out too far against these speed rushers and ended up getting beat inside too often. Zadarius Smith was one guy that exposed that. I will say there are games you don’t need to mention reiffs name but then there are games where he doesn’t even look like he can be a backup tackle. He isn’t getting any younger and is getting paid a lot. O’Neill has given up 1 sack in two seasons (and that sack was at the end of this year). That’s pretty darn elite if you ask me. Maybe moving O’Neill isn’t the answer but I also don’t think Reiff is the answer at LT either. Going to be interesting to see what they do here. I’m seeing talk now that they could move Reiff to LG. And I have no idea if that’s a good thing or a bad thing but if he does move to LG he needs to be restructured for sure.

On a side note, Braun mentioned the other day that Josh Kline graded out as a top 5 pass blocking guard in the last 5 games of the year. He actually had tied grades with Marshal Yanda who’s one of the best guards in football. I never realized that but this is why I advocated so much for Kline when he was signed last year because he was always known as a good pass blocker even though he struggled in 2018 in Tennessee. Not saying he’s some great guard but I think this was a very good under the radar signing by us. Our right side is set for now, I’m willing to give Bradbury time obviously, but our left side scares me. Especially given that it’s our QBs blindside and he’s not a mobile QB. I really hope we address this heavily this year.
It isn't like he is Joe Thomas and I think the Vikings should be looking to upgrade that spot via the draft. It is possible ONeil is that upgrade through the draft, but I would hope they would have moved him there by now if he was a great LT.

Kline was consistently below average imo. Not worth the contract, but serviceable. Another one who the Vikings need to be looking at upgrading via the draft.

LG is by far the biggest need and again, should be addressed via the draft. It should have been addressed for 10 straight seasons.

Bradbury improved as the season went on and his play was hurt a lot by playing between Elf and Kline.

O'Neil is the only other player besides Bradbury on that line who should feel safe this off season. Should.

What I believe will happen is very similar to what you laid out minus the FA RT. Don't be surprised if the exact same line is blocking for Cousins and Cook once again next season. After all, they didn't make a change during the season despite solid depth at both guard spots and tackle for that matter. The Vikings must not think it was THAT bad.
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Re: PHP's Early Mock Offseason

Post by J. Kapp 11 » Wed Jan 29, 2020 10:47 am

VikeFanInEagleLand wrote:
Wed Jan 29, 2020 7:58 am
J. Kapp 11 wrote:
Tue Jan 28, 2020 12:30 pm

You know, it's hard to refute what you've said here.

Around Week 14 or 15, I started a thread asking whether we should be concerned at the slowdown in the Vikings rushing attack. Over the first 10 weeks of the season, we averaged 153 YPG on the ground, with only two games fewer than 100 yards. But over the next 5 games, we averaged just 85.8 YPG before our backups put up 174 to close out the season against the Bears. Meanwhile, Dalvin Cook rushed for 991 yards in the first 10 games, but only 144 yards the rest of the way (in four games, averaging just 36 YPG and 3.2 YPC). Yes, he was dinged up ... that's sort of the point.

Nobody seemed concerned. But I certainly was. As opponents schemed to stop Cook, they discovered the double bonus of a passing game that couldn't pick up the slack because it was dependent on successfully running the ball. Consequently, we lost 3 of our last 4 to close out the regular season.

We ran the ball effectively against New Orleans and won, but the formula got proven once again by SF, who shut down our running game and kept our defense on the field for 40 minutes.

So while I love Dalvin Cook and marvel at what he brings to this offense when healthy, I just don't know how healthy he is going to be going forward. Is he worth extending? I'd say that depends on the price. I'd hate to lose Cook, but if his price is going to be in LeVeon Bell range, the answer has to be "no" IMO.

Here's the other thing. Gary Kubiak is famous for making 1,000 yard rushers out of practically thin air. Guys like Reuben Droughns and Justin Forsett came out of nowhere to put up huge numbers when Kubiak ran their offenses. Arian Foster down in Houston was undrafted and became a star under Kubiak. Does Kubiak really NEED a high-priced running back to succeed?

The Cook decision, while not immediate, may be the most difficult of all.
It always appears to me that at the beginning of the season, Cook puts 150% into every run....to the point where he sacrifices his body. I think as the year goes on, his body wears down. I think there is much to be said for the fact that opposing defenses were keying on stopping the run, but if you noticed, his yards after contact fell off dramatically by the end of the year. (I don't have proof of this, so if someone could find that stat...) I could definitely see his style of running leading to more injuries.
Just to piggyback on to what you've said here ... he also looked like early-season Cook in the playoff game against the Saints, after he had rested for two weeks and had only played one game in four weeks. He was absolutely explosive. But the next week against San Fran, on short rest, he looked like late-season Cook.

And honestly, defenses WERE keying on him, big-time, and gambling that Kirk and the passing attack couldn't win all by themselves. Green Bay and San Francisco succeeded big-time. I won't say Seattle did ... we gave away that game in the third quarter with sloppy play.

Finally, to expand on my comment about Kubiak ... given his success with no-name backs, isn't it entirely possible that he could turn Alexander Mattison, already a solid back, into a 1,000-yard rusher, only on a rookie contract? Just spitballing.
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Re: PHP's Early Mock Offseason

Post by Dames » Wed Jan 29, 2020 11:13 am

Pondering Her Percy wrote:
Wed Jan 29, 2020 9:26 am
As for mentioning Bisi as a 7th rounder. One thing I will say about Spielman is that I know a lot of guys gripe about loading up on late round picks every draft but we have hit on quite a few 7th rounders. Just within the last few years we have Bisi, Odenigbo, Weatherly, Kearse and Stephen. I'm guessing we HAVE to be top 3 (probably #1) in the league when it comes to hitting on players in the late rounds. Some of the credit definitely goes to Andre Patterson because he's probably the best DL coach in the NFL but regardless, we've had some solid picks late.
I don't mind how he stock-piles 7th rounders. He treats them like FA signings without the need to negotiate. I think it's a great way to use the 7th round, and like you said, he is relatively successful in finding solid players there. Of course, he does seem to get cute with his trades sometimes, and I think he has missed a few of his guys because of it. Speculating of course. I don't know that he's badly missed though.
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Re: PHP's Early Mock Offseason

Post by Dames » Wed Jan 29, 2020 11:15 am

J. Kapp 11 wrote:
Wed Jan 29, 2020 10:47 am
Finally, to expand on my comment about Kubiak ... given his success with no-name backs, isn't it entirely possible that he could turn Alexander Mattison, already a solid back, into a 1,000-yard rusher, only on a rookie contract? Just spitballing.
I really was hoping to see Matti be the lead when Cook was out, but unfortunately he was injured at the same time. It's very possible that he could fill that role that Cook plays. He's probably not as talented, but that is a Kubiak specialty. At least it has been in the past.
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Re: PHP's Early Mock Offseason

Post by Pondering Her Percy » Wed Jan 29, 2020 11:58 am

StumpHunter wrote:
Wed Jan 29, 2020 10:13 am

Kline was consistently below average imo. Not worth the contract, but serviceable. Another one who the Vikings need to be looking at upgrading via the draft.
I guess I'm confused when you say you think Reiff is a solid LT but gives up 5 sacks on the year and Kline is below average but gives up 2? Granted Reiff played 3 more games but looking at averages, even if Kline didnt play he wouldnt have given up as many sacks. The only one that gave up less pressure than Kline was O'Neill. Kline is the 31st highest paid guard in the NFL so I dont think his contract is too far off his play. Whereas Reiff is the 13th highest paid left tackle and his pay really isnt matching up with his play. I'm not saying Kline is the future by any means but he's a solid enough stop gap to address other positions.

Also, you said we need to look into replacing Kline and looking into the LT position in the draft. As well as the biggest need by far being LG so I'm not sure how you expect to draft a LT, LG and RG this year that can all go in and contribute. Out of those 3 positions, the best bang for our buck is Kline IMO and I'm guessing that's why nothing I have read talked about looking to replace him. I'll take less sacks given up, less pressures allowed and $5 million a year any day of the week over more sacks given up, more pressures given up and $11+ million a year.
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The saddest thing in life is wasted talent and the choices you make will shape your life forever.
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Pondering Her Percy
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Re: PHP's Early Mock Offseason

Post by Pondering Her Percy » Wed Jan 29, 2020 3:40 pm

Dames wrote:
Wed Jan 29, 2020 11:13 am
Pondering Her Percy wrote:
Wed Jan 29, 2020 9:26 am
As for mentioning Bisi as a 7th rounder. One thing I will say about Spielman is that I know a lot of guys gripe about loading up on late round picks every draft but we have hit on quite a few 7th rounders. Just within the last few years we have Bisi, Odenigbo, Weatherly, Kearse and Stephen. I'm guessing we HAVE to be top 3 (probably #1) in the league when it comes to hitting on players in the late rounds. Some of the credit definitely goes to Andre Patterson because he's probably the best DL coach in the NFL but regardless, we've had some solid picks late.
I don't mind how he stock-piles 7th rounders. He treats them like FA signings without the need to negotiate. I think it's a great way to use the 7th round, and like you said, he is relatively successful in finding solid players there. Of course, he does seem to get cute with his trades sometimes, and I think he has missed a few of his guys because of it. Speculating of course. I don't know that he's badly missed though.
I think it's smart if you ask me. And no I dont think it's effected us down the road or anything. Spielman basically looks at it as: Why have one 5th rounder, one 6th and one 7th when you can have two 6ths and four 7ths?? By loading up on those back end picks, you gain more players. Not just more but you could nearly what you were going to initially bring in during those rounds. So essentially, the chances of us hitting on 6 picks vs. 3 picks from rounds 5-7 would be much higher. If you look, the hit rate on 5th round picks compared to 7th round picks, the margin is minuscule so why not increase your chances by gaining more picks? I dont know maybe it's just me but I think this is a smart way to approach a draft.
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The saddest thing in life is wasted talent and the choices you make will shape your life forever.
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StumpHunter
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Re: PHP's Early Mock Offseason

Post by StumpHunter » Wed Jan 29, 2020 6:32 pm

Pondering Her Percy wrote:
Wed Jan 29, 2020 11:58 am
StumpHunter wrote:
Wed Jan 29, 2020 10:13 am

Kline was consistently below average imo. Not worth the contract, but serviceable. Another one who the Vikings need to be looking at upgrading via the draft.
I guess I'm confused when you say you think Reiff is a solid LT but gives up 5 sacks on the year and Kline is below average but gives up 2? Granted Reiff played 3 more games but looking at averages, even if Kline didnt play he wouldnt have given up as many sacks. The only one that gave up less pressure than Kline was O'Neill. Kline is the 31st highest paid guard in the NFL so I dont think his contract is too far off his play. Whereas Reiff is the 13th highest paid left tackle and his pay really isnt matching up with his play. I'm not saying Kline is the future by any means but he's a solid enough stop gap to address other positions.

Also, you said we need to look into replacing Kline and looking into the LT position in the draft. As well as the biggest need by far being LG so I'm not sure how you expect to draft a LT, LG and RG this year that can all go in and contribute. Out of those 3 positions, the best bang for our buck is Kline IMO and I'm guessing that's why nothing I have read talked about looking to replace him. I'll take less sacks given up, less pressures allowed and $5 million a year any day of the week over more sacks given up, more pressures given up and $11+ million a year.
Well, one is a RG, one is a LT. I have different expectations from them, as they face different challenges. So does the entirety of the NFL.

I don't think the Vikings will replace Kline this season. It would only save 1.5 million to cut him, and as you pointed out, they have too many other holes to fill. Reiff is a better candidate for being cut, because of his contract, but as I have said, I don't think that makes the line better and again, just creates another hole to fill. If the next franchise LT comes along in the draft or the next great RG, I want the Vikings to take them. That is all I am saying.

LG is a whole other story. They absolutely need find Elf's replacement in the draft. The good FA guards like Thuney are going to be grossly over priced and so are the mediocre ones. To finally get better at that spot, they need to invest draft capital into it. That is how the line will significantly improve over this season.
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