Darnold - Stafford Possibility?

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Re: Darnold - Stafford Possibility?

Post by StumpHunter »

Darnold is still a possibility I guess, but Stafford is going to be a Ram next season.

https://x.com/AdamSchefter/status/18955 ... la-2038002
LA’s quarterback is back: the Rams and Matthew Stafford reached agreement today on a restructured deal that keeps him in Los Angeles and quashes any and all trade speculation, per sources.
As for Darnold, if the Vikings are even still considering him as an option next season, this team is screwed. He is the type of QB you bring in to give you a shot at winning more than half your games and keep your job, not one you bring in to win a championship, and if the Vikings are so down on JJ McCarthy they feel they are closer at QB to the Raiders than the 5 other teams that drafted a QB last year, that is a really, really bad sign.
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Re: Darnold - Stafford Possibility?

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CharVike wrote: Thu Feb 27, 2025 1:49 am But Sammy seemed to fit with us great. He was a dam good watch for me. Both him and JJM have very close skills including fantastic arms which I like. Sam has a ton of experience which is great value to have.
My main concern with Sam Darnold is his track record to this point is one of under-performance across multiple teams and multiple years as a pro. Even last year before the disastrous final two games Darnold had some iffy outings. I'm far from convinced he's turned the corner and can replicate what he did when playing at his best last season even with the Vikings, and he's going to cost a minimum of $30 million per year to find out.

I wish KAM had put an option year on his contract for the Vikings with a buyout clause or something that would have given the Vikings a chance to leverage his value if he performed well. I think he'd likely have taken that given the situation he was coming from as a backup in San Fran. Now the only way to get anything out of him would be a sign and trade (for a different vet QB, likely who has significant flaws of his own) or franchise him and pay him like he's one of the best QBs in the league.

The Vikings lucked out last year and let Cousins walk. I hope they do the same with Darnold this year. I wish him the best wherever he goes, but I just don't see Darnold coming anywhere near what he did last year. He's like a higher-drafted Nick Foles the year Foles took Philly to the Superbowl. He had his moment and his run, but he wasn't ever going to maintain that performance level and he didn't. The Eagles GM understood that and let him walk, and that ended up being a smart move. Hopefully KAM can see it with Darnold.
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Re: Darnold - Stafford Possibility?

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Cliff wrote: Thu Feb 27, 2025 10:10 am Of course the number of wins is the most important stat for any football team and when it comes to that they were one of the best in the league.
I'd say the number of playoff wins is more important than regular season wins, at least if the measuring stick is playoff success rather than just making the playoffs.
Cliff wrote: Thu Feb 27, 2025 10:10 am Other positions have talent too but they aren't locked in with as long of contracts. If it turns out QB is settled too, that's an offense that can win consistently in an "offense first" league.
The interior OL is weak and I see no immediate relief on the horizon with that group right now. Maybe KAM will luck out in FA or he'll get at least one good IOL in the upcoming draft. But you can have all the skill position talent locked up that you want and if you can't open running lanes or protect the QB you won't win in the playoffs.
Cliff wrote: Thu Feb 27, 2025 10:10 am I wouldn't feel any better about the secondary if the players from last year were locked into longer contracts. I'm glad they're going to reshuffle those players. Outside of one guy they're all easily replaceable and very likely upgradable.
I brought up the defensive yardage stats and rankings and you said what mattered most was keeping opposing offenses out of the endzone, and the secondary players you are discounting here were a big part of the defensive statistic you felt mattered the most. That seems a little incongruous. Were they good or not, non-essential or important parts of a team on the cusp of playoff success?
Cliff wrote: Thu Feb 27, 2025 10:10 am If you're not trying to compete for a super bowl you've given up and are "rebuilding" if you ask me.
I want to make it clear how I see this - a good GM is *always* competing for a Superbowl. What makes the difference between a good GM and an average or bad GM is that a good GM recognizes that Superbowl winning teams have to be built over a period of time. You can't just wade into the FA market, sign a bunch of guys to one-term deals to plug the holes in your starting units because you can't draft, and expect to be competing for Superbowls every season. While I'm sure there are examples of teams that managed to be competitive with such short-term thinking, it's rare and really difficult to duplicate.
Cliff wrote: Thu Feb 27, 2025 10:10 am What are the steps back you would take to then take those steps forward?
1) Shed dead money. As much of it as possible. Don't consider moving it around or shifting the impact into future years. Head into a future offseason with as much actual cap headroom as possible so the team can be a player for any FA(s) it needs when it's ready to make the run

2) For the FAs that are signed, *always* give the team an option. Sweeten the deal to a point to make sure the option is there, but if the player overperforms the Vikings should always be first in line to squeeze the juice out of that fruit.

3) Draft smarter. Trade downs should be rare, especially at the top of the draft. Trade ups even rarer. When trades are made, the increased value to the Vikings should be clear, either in terms of picks gained or talent gained. If it's not clear value, it isn't a good trade (which speaks to why those should be rare in the first place as one side is going to come out on the wrong end of the trade). In this upcoming draft, for example, KAM will be majorly tempted (as in Adam and Eve-level tempted) to trade back from #24 to "get more picks". While there may be deals that objectively would favor the Vikings in such a trade, there may also be truly talented prospects at #24 that could really help the Vikings where they most need help. So maybe just holding pat and taking the single guy at #24 is the best move even if it means KAM has to wait until the 5th round to take two more swings.

4) Accept reality. The reality is, the team traded up and spent a high 1st rounder to get McCarthy. He cooled his heels his first year. Make him the clear favorite to start and give him that chance, even if it means he may struggle for a while. Make it clear you will tolerate those mistakes, and make sure the team has a viable vet to back him up and help guide him. The last thing you want to do is bring in (or back) a guy who is going to muddy the water you need to see through to understand if your longer-term plan at QB is going to work. Fate took Cousins out of the picture last year, and injury took McCarthy out of it, so there was no pressure on either the Vikings or McCarthy to try to answer that question last year. If they bring Darnold back and pay him starter money, however, all of that resets and it will be that much harder to answer the question as to whether McCarthy is the longer-term answer at QB. How many years do they want to wait before they get that answer? It won't come with McCarthy sitting on the sideline. Maybe sacrifice a few wins this upcoming year to see if your QB of the future is your future.

Those are the four things that come immediately to mind, and all of them may mean taking a little less in the short term to get more in the longer term. And I'd do all of them if I were the GM of this team.
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Re: Darnold - Stafford Possibility?

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VikingLord wrote: Fri Feb 28, 2025 4:18 pm
CharVike wrote: Thu Feb 27, 2025 1:49 am But Sammy seemed to fit with us great. He was a dam good watch for me. Both him and JJM have very close skills including fantastic arms which I like. Sam has a ton of experience which is great value to have.
My main concern with Sam Darnold is his track record to this point is one of under-performance across multiple teams and multiple years as a pro. Even last year before the disastrous final two games Darnold had some iffy outings. I'm far from convinced he's turned the corner and can replicate what he did when playing at his best last season even with the Vikings, and he's going to cost a minimum of $30 million per year to find out.

I wish KAM had put an option year on his contract for the Vikings with a buyout clause or something that would have given the Vikings a chance to leverage his value if he performed well. I think he'd likely have taken that given the situation he was coming from as a backup in San Fran. Now the only way to get anything out of him would be a sign and trade (for a different vet QB, likely who has significant flaws of his own) or franchise him and pay him like he's one of the best QBs in the league.

The Vikings lucked out last year and let Cousins walk. I hope they do the same with Darnold this year. I wish him the best wherever he goes, but I just don't see Darnold coming anywhere near what he did last year. He's like a higher-drafted Nick Foles the year Foles took Philly to the Superbowl. He had his moment and his run, but he wasn't ever going to maintain that performance level and he didn't. The Eagles GM understood that and let him walk, and that ended up being a smart move. Hopefully KAM can see it with Darnold.
What you posted is valid and could be true. Darnold had some bad games half way through the year but came out of it. He shocked everyone with the way he played. I didn't pay any attention to him until this year. What I read was he sucks. Another 1st round bust. What I saw wasn't a guy who sucks. He has great physical skills and actually lead us on some game winning drives. The Lions and then the Rams beat us good. They beat us during the season also. The Ram team is very young at the point on both sides and improved as the year progressed. Our entire team got beat badly and that started at the point. JJM won't fix that and will take a beaten. You can't develop a QB like that. Darnold has been through it and can handle it better. I'd keep Darnold and the worst case he sucks and goes to the bench and JJM can take over. That's worth the risk because once you have nothing at QB your done and wasting the roster, season and entertainment value. I've seen decades of that.
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Re: Darnold - Stafford Possibility?

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StumpHunter wrote: Fri Feb 28, 2025 1:52 pm Darnold is still a possibility I guess, but Stafford is going to be a Ram next season.

https://x.com/AdamSchefter/status/18955 ... la-2038002
LA’s quarterback is back: the Rams and Matthew Stafford reached agreement today on a restructured deal that keeps him in Los Angeles and quashes any and all trade speculation, per sources.
As for Darnold, if the Vikings are even still considering him as an option next season, this team is screwed. He is the type of QB you bring in to give you a shot at winning more than half your games and keep your job, not one you bring in to win a championship, and if the Vikings are so down on JJ McCarthy they feel they are closer at QB to the Raiders than the 5 other teams that drafted a QB last year, that is a really, really bad sign.
Darnold has nothing to do with JJM. I don't even know how you can tell what JJM is at this point. Darnold had a bad career playing on bad teams so far. He's still a young player and maybe it clicked. Or is that impossible to happen. I realize once a bum always a bum can be true. Drake Maye will be a bum if he sucks again this year. I don't think that's true but others may. Look at that team. Even Mahomes would fall off the cliff with their blocking. No QB ever took a team all the way with bad play at the point. It don't work that way
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Re: Darnold - Stafford Possibility?

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Re: Darnold - Stafford Possibility?

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CharVike wrote: Fri Feb 28, 2025 7:45 pm
StumpHunter wrote: Fri Feb 28, 2025 1:52 pm Darnold is still a possibility I guess, but Stafford is going to be a Ram next season.

https://x.com/AdamSchefter/status/18955 ... la-2038002



As for Darnold, if the Vikings are even still considering him as an option next season, this team is screwed. He is the type of QB you bring in to give you a shot at winning more than half your games and keep your job, not one you bring in to win a championship, and if the Vikings are so down on JJ McCarthy they feel they are closer at QB to the Raiders than the 5 other teams that drafted a QB last year, that is a really, really bad sign.
Darnold has nothing to do with JJM. I don't even know how you can tell what JJM is at this point. Darnold had a bad career playing on bad teams so far. He's still a young player and maybe it clicked. Or is that impossible to happen. I realize once a bum always a bum can be true. Drake Maye will be a bum if he sucks again this year. I don't think that's true but others may. Look at that team. Even Mahomes would fall off the cliff with their blocking. No QB ever took a team all the way with bad play at the point. It don't work that way
The Vikings have a pretty good idea of what they have in JJM and if they think they don't have a lot there, only then is Darnold a real option for them.

The league has a long history of teams making decisions at QB almost primarily on what happens in training camp, and making a decision on JJM after a single training camp would be no different.
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Re: Darnold - Stafford Possibility?

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StumpHunter wrote: Sun Mar 02, 2025 9:49 am
CharVike wrote: Fri Feb 28, 2025 7:45 pm
Darnold has nothing to do with JJM. I don't even know how you can tell what JJM is at this point. Darnold had a bad career playing on bad teams so far. He's still a young player and maybe it clicked. Or is that impossible to happen. I realize once a bum always a bum can be true. Drake Maye will be a bum if he sucks again this year. I don't think that's true but others may. Look at that team. Even Mahomes would fall off the cliff with their blocking. No QB ever took a team all the way with bad play at the point. It don't work that way
The Vikings have a pretty good idea of what they have in JJM and if they think they don't have a lot there, only then is Darnold a real option for them.

The league has a long history of teams making decisions at QB almost primarily on what happens in training camp, and making a decision on JJM after a single training camp would be no different.
You're right that they have a good idea about JJM. They also have a good idea about Darnold. If they feel JJM is ready to go then Darnold is gone for at minimum a future comp pick. If they feel JJM needs more time, which isn't a knock, then they will try and keep Darnold at a salary that fits the teams cap plan if they have one. Right now they are in better shape at this position than they were when they got here. We'll see what will happen very shortly.
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Re: Darnold - Stafford Possibility?

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What I thought was surprising is the deal the 49ers made with the Commanders by trading D Samual and only getting a 5th round pick in return. I thought they could get more than that. Strange or perhaps I don't know the value of the position.
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Re: Darnold - Stafford Possibility?

Post by makila »

If we spend a lot of our cap space (as many think is the plan), it counts in the comp pick formulas, and we likely wouldn't get a comp pick for Darnold. Fwiw.

The comp pick game works best when you are filling spots leaving with draft picks, not free agents.
Last edited by makila on Sun Mar 02, 2025 1:31 pm, edited 1 time in total.
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Re: Darnold - Stafford Possibility?

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CharVike wrote: Sun Mar 02, 2025 12:16 pm What I thought was surprising is the deal the 49ers made with the Commanders by trading D Samual and only getting a 5th round pick in return. I thought they could get more than that. Strange or perhaps I don't know the value of the position.
I thought a 3rd was realistic. Also why I think any talk of the Vikings getting a 1st for Addison is a pipe dream.
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Re: Darnold - Stafford Possibility?

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makila wrote: Sun Mar 02, 2025 1:30 pm
CharVike wrote: Sun Mar 02, 2025 12:16 pm What I thought was surprising is the deal the 49ers made with the Commanders by trading D Samual and only getting a 5th round pick in return. I thought they could get more than that. Strange or perhaps I don't know the value of the position.
I thought a 3rd was realistic. Also why I think any talk of the Vikings getting a 1st for Addison is a pipe dream.
I agree with the pipe dream.
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Re: Darnold - Stafford Possibility?

Post by StumpHunter »

makila wrote: Sun Mar 02, 2025 1:30 pm
CharVike wrote: Sun Mar 02, 2025 12:16 pm What I thought was surprising is the deal the 49ers made with the Commanders by trading D Samual and only getting a 5th round pick in return. I thought they could get more than that. Strange or perhaps I don't know the value of the position.
I thought a 3rd was realistic. Also why I think any talk of the Vikings getting a 1st for Addison is a pipe dream.
Deebo is a 29 year old 600 yard WR making 17 million.

Addison is 23 years old with 3 years left of control on his rookie contract if his 5th year option is picked up. He has more receiving yards in each of his first two seasons than all but one of Deebo's seasons (Deebo has only broken 800 yards twice, and 900 once).

I don't think Addison is worth a 1st either, but he is worth a lot more than Deebo.
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Re: Darnold - Stafford Possibility?

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VikingLord wrote: Fri Feb 28, 2025 4:43 pmI'd say the number of playoff wins is more important than regular season wins, at least if the measuring stick is playoff success rather than just making the playoffs.
I think so too. But when we're talking about how a team performs over the course of the entire season and we're talking about total yards, etc. Wins is what it's about to me.
The interior OL is weak and I see no immediate relief on the horizon with that group right now. Maybe KAM will luck out in FA or he'll get at least one good IOL in the upcoming draft. But you can have all the skill position talent locked up that you want and if you can't open running lanes or protect the QB you won't win in the playoffs.
I think getting Darrisaw back is going to help tremendously with how the offensive line as a whole performs. I think the IOL can be upgraded but I think it's weakness isn't as easily exploited when that LT position is locked down and the player there is top tier.
I brought up the defensive yardage stats and rankings and you said what mattered most was keeping opposing offenses out of the endzone, and the secondary players you are discounting here were a big part of the defensive statistic you felt mattered the most. That seems a little incongruous. Were they good or not, non-essential or important parts of a team on the cusp of playoff success?
I think the defense as a whole was good-not-great and the biggest "not great" part of it was the secondary. Just like I think the Vikings offense is very good but that doesn't mean parts of it can't be upgraded. If they were needing to replace the entire IOL this offseason it wouldn't bother me either.
I want to make it clear how I see this - a good GM is *always* competing for a Superbowl. What makes the difference between a good GM and an average or bad GM is that a good GM recognizes that Superbowl winning teams have to be built over a period of time. You can't just wade into the FA market, sign a bunch of guys to one-term deals to plug the holes in your starting units because you can't draft, and expect to be competing for Superbowls every season. While I'm sure there are examples of teams that managed to be competitive with such short-term thinking, it's rare and really difficult to duplicate.
I don't see a ton of short-term thinking by the Vikings. They've had a bad draft and it's not looking great for some others but that's not the same as not trying to think long term. To some degree signing FA's to short contracts means they're hoping some rookies are able to step up.
1) Shed dead money. As much of it as possible. Don't consider moving it around or shifting the impact into future years. Head into a future offseason with as much actual cap headroom as possible so the team can be a player for any FA(s) it needs when it's ready to make the run
They've only got $10.7m in "dead" cap money. That's 14th least and definitely in the "lower" tier of dead money teams. The 15th and 16th lowest teams are both about $11.5m and then it jumps to $18m going into 50m at the high end.

And they've got some of the most cap space available to them. I don't think they can sign players to a bunch of long term contracts *and* have extra cap space unless they hit in the draft. Which of course they're trying to do.
2) For the FAs that are signed, *always* give the team an option. Sweeten the deal to a point to make sure the option is there, but if the player overperforms the Vikings should always be first in line to squeeze the juice out of that fruit.

If they are able to find players willing to sign team friendly contracts definitely take them. I think trying to make players sign those kinds of contracts that are longer term with not very much guaranteed money are going to end up having free agents going to other teams.
3) Draft smarter. Trade downs should be rare, especially at the top of the draft. Trade ups even rarer. When trades are made, the increased value to the Vikings should be clear, either in terms of picks gained or talent gained. If it's not clear value, it isn't a good trade (which speaks to why those should be rare in the first place as one side is going to come out on the wrong end of the trade). In this upcoming draft, for example, KAM will be majorly tempted (as in Adam and Eve-level tempted) to trade back from #24 to "get more picks". While there may be deals that objectively would favor the Vikings in such a trade, there may also be truly talented prospects at #24 that could really help the Vikings where they most need help. So maybe just holding pat and taking the single guy at #24 is the best move even if it means KAM has to wait until the 5th round to take two more swings.
They need to draft better but it's not as if they're not trying to do that. I like your strategy but is it really taking a "step back"? It's just a different strategy.
4) Accept reality. The reality is, the team traded up and spent a high 1st rounder to get McCarthy. He cooled his heels his first year. Make him the clear favorite to start and give him that chance, even if it means he may struggle for a while. Make it clear you will tolerate those mistakes, and make sure the team has a viable vet to back him up and help guide him. The last thing you want to do is bring in (or back) a guy who is going to muddy the water you need to see through to understand if your longer-term plan at QB is going to work. Fate took Cousins out of the picture last year, and injury took McCarthy out of it, so there was no pressure on either the Vikings or McCarthy to try to answer that question last year. If they bring Darnold back and pay him starter money, however, all of that resets and it will be that much harder to answer the question as to whether McCarthy is the longer-term answer at QB. How many years do they want to wait before they get that answer? It won't come with McCarthy sitting on the sideline. Maybe sacrifice a few wins this upcoming year to see if your QB of the future is your future.

Those are the four things that come immediately to mind, and all of them may mean taking a little less in the short term to get more in the longer term. And I'd do all of them if I were the GM of this team.
I don't think fate took Cousins out of it at all. Them doing exactly what you said did. They weren't willing to bring Cousins back for a longer term contract and he wasn't willing to sign a 2-year deal. They were honest with him that JJM was the "future" so he left. I also think it's why Darnold isn't going to be coming back. He'll be able to get a 3ish year contract somewhere and KOC has drafted "his" guy. I think they'll bring in at least one QB that was in Darnold's position last year. Someone with talent but a bad history and willing to take a "prove it" 1 or 2 year deal to get their career back on path with a team like the Vikings. Someone that can compete with JJM and allows him to sit for a second season if they decide he needs it, which seemed to be the plan from the beginning.

Darnold had potential so they signed him, but I think it's obvious they didn't expect the level they got out of him. I don't think they expected to have any kind of controversy about resigning him after the 2024 season.

I also don't think sitting JJM has much to do with wins, I think it comes from the understanding that you can ruin a young QB by trying to throw them in too soon.
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Re: Darnold - Stafford Possibility?

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Cliff wrote: Mon Mar 03, 2025 10:55 am
I also don't think sitting JJM has much to do with wins, I think it comes from the understanding that you can ruin a young QB by trying to throw them in too soon.
I think this myth needs to die. If there was any truth to this, 5 of 5 healthy rookie 1st round QBs wouldn't have started last year.