Vikings at Rams

[J. Kapp 11]

Stafford gets credit and he deserves that. One of Zim's poster games he sacked Stafford 10 times and he looked much like Sammy. A bum he couldn't hit anything and even trying to toss a backward pitch to avoid getting rolled which Hunter returned for a TD. Only 9 points in that one for the Lions. Looks familiar. Of course he was accused of holding the ball too long. "Matthew Stafford was culpable, too, often hanging onto the ball too long". Same old story and it will get repeated over and over no matter who the QB is. If JJM faces a wave coming up the gut with a free runner the finger will be pointed at him also. It will be don't stand there for 2.6 seconds unload the ball in 2.4 or take the quick fail proof check down like Danny Dimes. Just make sure a Van Ginkle type isn't watching you waiting for the gofer ball to be thrown. Blocking will solve all that stuff. Just ask Stafford.

You are right in that most QBs will fold under heavy pressure, but you're not describing the game I watched against the Rams. Was there pressure? Sure, but Darnold had time to deal with it, the same as any other pro QB would have had. The Vikings called plays that produced open receivers on nearly every down. Were they wide open? Not always. Were they open enough that an experienced veteran QB should be able to locate and fire the ball to them before the pressure reached him? Absolutely. I can recall maybe a handful of plays where Darnold didn't have a viable target he could have hit regardless of what the Rams sent at him. KOC called a solid game from where I was sitting, and the Vikings receivers were more than up to the task of executing those plays. Darnold, and Darnold alone, made the Rams secondary look like the second coming.

To see the shade thrown at the OL, KOC and the receivers, or conversely, the praise heaped on the Rams for their defensive masterpiece, is almost sad. None of that is deserved.

I read somewhere that NextGen Stats had Darnold taking 6 of his 9 sacks against the Rams after 4.4 seconds or more.

That is absolutely horrific quarterback play. There is simply no other way to put it. It’s exactly as Paul Allen screamed on the radio — you can’t hold the ball that long!

[CharVike]

You are right in that most QBs will fold under heavy pressure, but you're not describing the game I watched against the Rams. Was there pressure? Sure, but Darnold had time to deal with it, the same as any other pro QB would have had. The Vikings called plays that produced open receivers on nearly every down. Were they wide open? Not always. Were they open enough that an experienced veteran QB should be able to locate and fire the ball to them before the pressure reached him? Absolutely. I can recall maybe a handful of plays where Darnold didn't have a viable target he could have hit regardless of what the Rams sent at him. KOC called a solid game from where I was sitting, and the Vikings receivers were more than up to the task of executing those plays. Darnold, and Darnold alone, made the Rams secondary look like the second coming.

To see the shade thrown at the OL, KOC and the receivers, or conversely, the praise heaped on the Rams for their defensive masterpiece, is almost sad. None of that is deserved.

I read somewhere that NextGen Stats had Darnold taking 6 of his 9 sacks against the Rams after 4.4 seconds or more.

That is absolutely horrific quarterback play. There is simply no other way to put it. It’s exactly as Paul Allen screamed on the radio — you can’t hold the ball that long!

Hurts was sacked 7 times so maybe the Rams can get after the QB better than what's indicated here. Hurts does hold the ball longer than most but he looks to get the most out of his attempts. I watched these playoff games and IMO Darnold was under the most pressure. On the other side Lamar stood there for a long long time before he had to throw it. He could look everywhere and anywhere because nothing was coming. He was shuffling looking for gaps in the secondary. But when he did get pressure one time he fumbled the ball away to setup a Bill score. That's also horrific QB play. We will see what the team does in the off season. If it was Darnold then the same IOL will be out there next season. I think we are weak as hell on the interior. But I'm just watching no more than that.

[VikingLord]

We will see what the team does in the off season. If it was Darnold then the same IOL will be out there next season. I think we are weak as hell on the interior. But I'm just watching no more than that.

IOL should be addressed in free agency. Not sure if the Vikings will make a move at center, but I can see both guard positions being addressed, with at least one of them a top shelf vet.

The way the draft is shaping up, it looks like CB and OL will provide the best options at #24, but I could see a trade back as the draft flattens out a lot at that point. I could see KAM trying to get back into the early 2nd where there should still be some very good prospects on the board and maybe getting an extra 4th.

[Cliff]

This is arguable. After scoring 30 points in their regular season win over the Vikings the Rams regular starters on offense scored over 30 points once during that stretch (44 against the Bills) and was very inconsistent. They played in one of the weaker overall divisions in pro football as well which also helped them make the playoffs.

I don't know enough about the Rams and their division to argue a lot of that, I just know what I saw and their record. They rolled over the Vikings and went toe to toe with the Eagles. They looked better than I thought they were for sure.

Barkley is good, but the Rams were gambling men on defense most of the year and I think Barkley/Hurts just made them pay because the Eagles didn't abandon the run, or at least not to the degree KOC seemed willing to do. Or maybe it was because the Eagles never had to play from far behind and could afford to keep whacking away with the run.

It's the difference between fielding a 30 year old Aaron Jones and having Barkley in his prime and a QB who is a threat to run the ball. The Eagles are one of the best teams in the league at running the ball and the Vikings are one of the worst at it. If the Vikings had tried to stick to the run we'd be talking about why KOC didn't play to the team's strengths.

Whatever it was, the Vikings had some of those same opportunities (against both the Rams and the Lions) and just couldn't or wouldn't take advantage of them. I don't blame Darnold for all of it - KOC also gave up on the run too quickly and his playcalling kind of fell into their hands. The Vikings pass game was a strength for most of the year, or at the very least of the two phases of the offense the pass game had the better talent and chances of producing explosive plays downfield, but there were big plays to be had running the ball against both of those defenses IMHO and the Vikings just didn't take advantage of them while the Eagles and Commanders did in their respective playoff games.

Hopefully with better QB play next year and a more consistent interior OL (and maybe a more explosive starting RB), KOC will feel he can turn to the run game and help cool those blitzing strategies off a bit.

Darnold was a big part of the problem for sure. When he did have good opportunities he missed them. The OL needs to get better like you say, but Darrisaw coming back is going to be a huge help for that. I definitely want to get more explosive at RB too. It would indeed be nice to be able to make teams pay for the blitz with big chunks on the ground.

[Cliff]

You are right in that most QBs will fold under heavy pressure, but you're not describing the game I watched against the Rams. Was there pressure? Sure, but Darnold had time to deal with it, the same as any other pro QB would have had. The Vikings called plays that produced open receivers on nearly every down. Were they wide open? Not always. Were they open enough that an experienced veteran QB should be able to locate and fire the ball to them before the pressure reached him? Absolutely. I can recall maybe a handful of plays where Darnold didn't have a viable target he could have hit regardless of what the Rams sent at him. KOC called a solid game from where I was sitting, and the Vikings receivers were more than up to the task of executing those plays. Darnold, and Darnold alone, made the Rams secondary look like the second coming.

To see the shade thrown at the OL, KOC and the receivers, or conversely, the praise heaped on the Rams for their defensive masterpiece, is almost sad. None of that is deserved.

I read somewhere that NextGen Stats had Darnold taking 6 of his 9 sacks against the Rams after 4.4 seconds or more.

That is absolutely horrific quarterback play. There is simply no other way to put it. It’s exactly as Paul Allen screamed on the radio — you can’t hold the ball that long!

Darnold definitely holds the ball too long and it's his fault in some cases. Many times it was that he was under some kind of pressure within about 2 seconds too though. He tries to reset and regroup and by the time he does so the second leak has come out of the offensive line.

For example the play action where he turns around only to find a defender 2 steps away. Between the fake and turning around he's already at 3 seconds. He tries to run away a bit and there is 4+ seconds. The first sack he's about ready to throw at 3 seconds when his linemen are shoved back into him, an extra second or two to try and get away to regroup and he's down.

There are also 2 "no excuse" plays where he holds the ball for 6 or 7 seconds and is dancing around.

Then of course when he finally *is* able to throw the ball with at least a clean-ish pocket he misses the receivers. He was a mess, but the line contributed to him being a mess.

[CharVike]

We will see what the team does in the off season. If it was Darnold then the same IOL will be out there next season. I think we are weak as hell on the interior. But I'm just watching no more than that.

IOL should be addressed in free agency. Not sure if the Vikings will make a move at center, but I can see both guard positions being addressed, with at least one of them a top shelf vet.

The way the draft is shaping up, it looks like CB and OL will provide the best options at #24, but I could see a trade back as the draft flattens out a lot at that point. I could see KAM trying to get back into the early 2nd where there should still be some very good prospects on the board and maybe getting an extra 4th.

Risner is a FA so I see that position getting a top level FA. I get the feeling they may stick with Blake. He did sign a 3 year deal. Maybe he will get better with experience. Once we sign a guy we will have a big total cap number in the OL. I'm not sure what they will do at safety or CB but they will need cap for it.

[StumpHunter]

I read somewhere that NextGen Stats had Darnold taking 6 of his 9 sacks against the Rams after 4.4 seconds or more.

That is absolutely horrific quarterback play. There is simply no other way to put it. It’s exactly as Paul Allen screamed on the radio — you can’t hold the ball that long!

Darnold definitely holds the ball too long and it's his fault in some cases. Many times it was that he was under some kind of pressure within about 2 seconds too though. He tries to reset and regroup and by the time he does so the second leak has come out of the offensive line.

I don't know about in under 2 seconds, but he was pressured in under 2.5 seconds exactly 32 times during the regular season which was 14th most. For context Joe Burrow was pressured in under 2.5 seconds 61 times, which was the most of any QB this season, while Lamar was only pressured 19 times in under 2.5 seconds.

Most of his pressures came when he was holding the ball too long and that at the end of the day is Darnold's downfall. He just can't read a defense as well or as quickly as a pocket passer should be able too, and all the arm talent in the world doesn't matter when that is the case.

[StumpHunter]

Hurts was sacked 7 times so maybe the Rams can get after the QB better than what's indicated here. Hurts does hold the ball longer than most but he looks to get the most out of his attempts. I watched these playoff games and IMO Darnold was under the most pressure. On the other side Lamar stood there for a long long time before he had to throw it. He could look everywhere and anywhere because nothing was coming. He was shuffling looking for gaps in the secondary. But when he did get pressure one time he fumbled the ball away to setup a Bill score. That's also horrific QB play. We will see what the team does in the off season. If it was Darnold then the same IOL will be out there next season. I think we are weak as hell on the interior. But I'm just watching no more than that.

Lamar Jackson was pressured at nearly an identical rate to Sam Darnold WC weekend (54% to 53.8%). In that game he averaged 8.3 YPA and had a 132 passer rating.

It is possible to succeed in the playoffs while getting pressured, in fact it is usually necessary to win. In the regular season, the highest pressure rate a QB faced was Jalen Hurts ironically and on average he faced pressure on 40% of his dropbacks. Only two QBs faced less than a 45% pressure rate this weekend. The pressure just ramps up in the playoffs, and some QBs handle it, others don't. Ours didn't.

As for the IOL, KOC made it clear in his presser at the end of the season that he wants to improve it, but not to help with pass blocking, but to help with run blocking. The Vikings I believe are dead last inside the red zone in rushing success, because their interior OL just can't get any push. They were pretty good outside the red zone, though, because teams were so focused on stopping the pass the run usually succeeded.

[VikingLord]

I think the other important point to mention in the context of Stump's comments is that KOC also addressed the topic of handling pressure schemes both from the perspective of play design and from the perspective of the QB position itself (probably because he played that position in the pros and understands in practical terms what a QB has to do when under a lot of pressure). KOC had plays designed to afford Darnold safety valve options on every play. I believe he stated that specifically, and while I can't say I saw that on every play in the playoff game against the Rams, I saw it on most of them. There were shorter, quicker reads available to him, and most of the time they looked open enough for him to hit them.

KOC also stated how a QB needs to process the routes when under pressure, and how that processing needs to change in those situations. Where a QB's normal progression might be to read an intermediate or deep route when rushed by four, for example, he needs to come off that progression if he sees extra rushers and read his shorter options first. Darnold didn't look like he did that at all. He looked like he stuck to his original progression regardless of what the Lions and Rams did defensively. I'm not sure if he was just stubborn and thought he could get something down the field or if he just failed to read the pressure properly. Whatever it was, and based on KOC's comments, it sure seemed like there was a failure to properly execute the scheme.

KOC didn't put the blame on Darnold per se, but he sure seemed to imply that he as a playcaller and designer of an offensive gameplan had accounted for what at least the Rams did defensively.

[CharVike]

Hurts was sacked 7 times so maybe the Rams can get after the QB better than what's indicated here. Hurts does hold the ball longer than most but he looks to get the most out of his attempts. I watched these playoff games and IMO Darnold was under the most pressure. On the other side Lamar stood there for a long long time before he had to throw it. He could look everywhere and anywhere because nothing was coming. He was shuffling looking for gaps in the secondary. But when he did get pressure one time he fumbled the ball away to setup a Bill score. That's also horrific QB play. We will see what the team does in the off season. If it was Darnold then the same IOL will be out there next season. I think we are weak as hell on the interior. But I'm just watching no more than that.

Lamar Jackson was pressured at nearly an identical rate to Sam Darnold WC weekend (54% to 53.8%). In that game he averaged 8.3 YPA and had a 132 passer rating.

It is possible to succeed in the playoffs while getting pressured, in fact it is usually necessary to win. In the regular season, the highest pressure rate a QB faced was Jalen Hurts ironically and on average he faced pressure on 40% of his dropbacks. Only two QBs faced less than a 45% pressure rate this weekend. The pressure just ramps up in the playoffs, and some QBs handle it, others don't. Ours didn't.

As for the IOL, KOC made it clear in his presser at the end of the season that he wants to improve it, but not to help with pass blocking, but to help with run blocking. The Vikings I believe are dead last inside the red zone in rushing success, because their interior OL just can't get any push. They were pretty good outside the red zone, though, because teams were so focused on stopping the pass the run usually succeeded.

Hurts and the Eagle offense is a different model than any other team. That OL is very physical and big. They beat fronts down. Both Barkley and Hurts can bust long runs and that was on display. But the holes were there to allow them into the secondary. Lamar looked terrific. He is a much better passer than when he started out. The last TD he threw was a great throw. They dropped many into coverage. They forced the throw. He had a couple of miscues in the 1st half which cost him. Lets face it Larmar and Sammy are at different ends. One is an MVP the other is a bust trying to find his game. The pressure will increase in the playoffs. Most of the teams in there can get after the QB. It was more than just the pressure on Darnold. He had pressure during the season and functioned at a high level. Your right we can't run very well once inside the red zone. KOC pointed that out. Once it's pass only it will make it hard for any QB even our next guy JJM. It can get messy in the end zone.

[CharVike]

I think the other important point to mention in the context of Stump's comments is that KOC also addressed the topic of handling pressure schemes both from the perspective of play design and from the perspective of the QB position itself (probably because he played that position in the pros and understands in practical terms what a QB has to do when under a lot of pressure). KOC had plays designed to afford Darnold safety valve options on every play. I believe he stated that specifically, and while I can't say I saw that on every play in the playoff game against the Rams, I saw it on most of them. There were shorter, quicker reads available to him, and most of the time they looked open enough for him to hit them.

KOC also stated how a QB needs to process the routes when under pressure, and how that processing needs to change in those situations. Where a QB's normal progression might be to read an intermediate or deep route when rushed by four, for example, he needs to come off that progression if he sees extra rushers and read his shorter options first. Darnold didn't look like he did that at all. He looked like he stuck to his original progression regardless of what the Lions and Rams did defensively. I'm not sure if he was just stubborn and thought he could get something down the field or if he just failed to read the pressure properly. Whatever it was, and based on KOC's comments, it sure seemed like there was a failure to properly execute the scheme.

KOC didn't put the blame on Darnold per se, but he sure seemed to imply that he as a playcaller and designer of an offensive gameplan had accounted for what at least the Rams did defensively.

Why did it take the entire season for this to happen? We all seen Darnold throw deeper balls after getting out of the mess. That disappeared. Did teams figure out what he/we were doing to escape and also take those routes away. I have no idea. I don't recall a guy playing like that and then boom garbage. It wasn't only a few games he was good. It makes me wonder who would offer a contract to him. It looks like a 10 million guy again.

[J. Kapp 11]

I think the other important point to mention in the context of Stump's comments is that KOC also addressed the topic of handling pressure schemes both from the perspective of play design and from the perspective of the QB position itself (probably because he played that position in the pros and understands in practical terms what a QB has to do when under a lot of pressure). KOC had plays designed to afford Darnold safety valve options on every play. I believe he stated that specifically, and while I can't say I saw that on every play in the playoff game against the Rams, I saw it on most of them. There were shorter, quicker reads available to him, and most of the time they looked open enough for him to hit them.

KOC also stated how a QB needs to process the routes when under pressure, and how that processing needs to change in those situations. Where a QB's normal progression might be to read an intermediate or deep route when rushed by four, for example, he needs to come off that progression if he sees extra rushers and read his shorter options first. Darnold didn't look like he did that at all. He looked like he stuck to his original progression regardless of what the Lions and Rams did defensively. I'm not sure if he was just stubborn and thought he could get something down the field or if he just failed to read the pressure properly. Whatever it was, and based on KOC's comments, it sure seemed like there was a failure to properly execute the scheme.

KOC didn't put the blame on Darnold per se, but he sure seemed to imply that he as a playcaller and designer of an offensive gameplan had accounted for what at least the Rams did defensively.

It was widely reported at training camp that Darnold was better the farther he threw the ball. On screens, slants, short stuff, checkdowns, etc. he struggled with accuracy. That really didn’t change over the course of the season.

I have to wonder if KOC didn’t go too far in trying to tailor the Vikings passing game to Darnold’s strengths — so much that he nearly removed the short passing game, even hot routes (of which there didn’t seem to be any).

[VikingLord]

I have to wonder if KOC didn’t go too far in trying to tailor the Vikings passing game to Darnold’s strengths — so much that he nearly removed the short passing game, even hot routes (of which there didn’t seem to be any).

I can only speak to the playoff game against the Rams which I was able to attend in person, but there were safety valve options on nearly every down from what I was able to see. Most QBs recognize where a blitz is coming from and throw in the direction of the blitz. Darnold didn't do that from what I saw, nor did he even look like he saw the blitz coming. He looked like he had his mind made up as to where he was going to go with the ball before he took the snap, but even there he didn't appear to trust himself when he did have time to make the throw. He was late and erratic or didn't throw at all.

[psjordan]

I have to wonder if KOC didn’t go too far in trying to tailor the Vikings passing game to Darnold’s strengths — so much that he nearly removed the short passing game, even hot routes (of which there didn’t seem to be any).

I can only speak to the playoff game against the Rams which I was able to attend in person, but there were safety valve options on nearly every down from what I was able to see. Most QBs recognize where a blitz is coming from and throw in the direction of the blitz. Darnold didn't do that from what I saw, nor did he even look like he saw the blitz coming. He looked like he had his mind made up as to where he was going to go with the ball before he took the snap, but even there he didn't appear to trust himself when he did have time to make the throw. He was late and erratic or didn't throw at all.

This is exactly what I saw in person at the JAX game. SO frustrating to watch.