Vikings at Rams

[Cliff]

I don't have much to say that hasn't been said. Sam couldn't hack it when it mattered most. I do think there are valid reasons beyond his control that caused some problems but then when he did get opportunities to make up for it he couldn't make it happen.

Aaron Jones definitely showed his age by the end of the year and in this game. Akers needed to be on the field more, he seemed to really have a spark.

Flores will definitely be available to continue being the Vikings DC next season if they want him back.

[VikingLord]

I don't have much to say that hasn't been said. Sam couldn't hack it when it mattered most. I do think there are valid reasons beyond his control that caused some problems but then when he did get opportunities to make up for it he couldn't make it happen.

The moment that most exemplified Darnold's complete reversion for me was when he missed a wide open Nailor on a simple 7 yard crosser on 3rd-and-5 that ended the first drive of the 2nd half. Not a tough read. Not a difficult throw. Not well covered - Nailor was open for an easy conversion. Darnold could not make the throw and was honestly late on the read.

Vikes badly needed a TD on that opening drive.

Flores will definitely be available to continue being the Vikings DC next season if they want him back.

I think Flores will get a head coaching offer somewhere. If he's back again next year I will be very surprised.

[Cliff]

The moment that most exemplified Darnold's complete reversion for me was when he missed a wide open Nailor on a simple 7 yard crosser on 3rd-and-5 that ended the first drive of the 2nd half. Not a tough read. Not a difficult throw. Not well covered - Nailor was open for an easy conversion. Darnold could not make the throw and was honestly late on the read.

Vikes badly needed a TD on that opening drive.

Yeah, I thought so too. I'm not willing to say he has completely reverted and can never return to his earlier season form though. Regardless of whose fault it was on a given play Darnold was sacked 9 times. I can see being jumpy and thrown off your game.

Flores will definitely be available to continue being the Vikings DC next season if they want him back.

I think Flores will get a head coaching offer somewhere. If he's back again next year I will be very surprised.

"Definitely" was too strong for sure, but I don't think he'll be a head coach next season.

[psjordan]

I think Flores will get a head coaching offer somewhere. If he's back again next year I will be very surprised.

"Definitely" was too strong for sure, but I don't think he'll be a head coach next season.

Good golly, I don't think I can take another season of Flores as DC. Yes, his chaotic scheme works against QB's without a ton of experience, but against QB's that have been around the block it's another story.

I would be very optimistic of our chances with a new DC if Flores leaves. Yes there certainly will be a lot of new parts and pieces, but for instance right now Turner is pretty much a dud. New scheme, new coaches, new techniques, new wrinkles would do this group (or what's left of returning D players) anywhere from some to a lot of good IMO.

[VikingLord]

Yeah, I thought so too. I'm not willing to say he has completely reverted and can never return to his earlier season form though. Regardless of whose fault it was on a given play Darnold was sacked 9 times. I can see being jumpy and thrown off your game.

His body of work to this point suggests he is far more likely a 2017 Case Keenum or 2017 Nick Foles than someone who is truly evolving into a reliable starting QB.

Darnold was sacked 9 times largely because he was again indecisive, made incorrect or late reads, and as a result held the ball way too long. I understand the criticism of the OL personnel and blocking schemes, but let's be honest - no QB can hold the ball for 4+ seconds play after play and not be under a ton of pressure. Being at the game, I thought it was amazing he wasn't sacked more given how he played. I thought the OL battled like crazy. They weren't dominant but they were leaving it all out there and Darnold was just panicky and would again not throw the ball even to open receivers.

I don't mind if they bring Darnold back on another $10 million one year deal as insurance for McCarthy, but I would greatly mind if they signed him for more than that or worse, signed him for a larger amount or longer term. He's a backup, journeyman QB who had a decent run this year and nothing more. Time to move on at the starting QB spot, and logically that QB should be JJ McCarthy.

[StpViking]

This is what I get for being optimistic. For a few moments I forgot I was a Vikings fan. I hate the fact that the Lions might win a SuperBowl before us, but it would be fitting.

[Cliff]

"Definitely" was too strong for sure, but I don't think he'll be a head coach next season.

Good golly, I don't think I can take another season of Flores as DC. Yes, his chaotic scheme works against QB's without a ton of experience, but against QB's that have been around the block it's another story.

I would be very optimistic of our chances with a new DC if Flores leaves. Yes there certainly will be a lot of new parts and pieces, but for instance right now Turner is pretty much a dud. New scheme, new coaches, new techniques, new wrinkles would do this group (or what's left of returning D players) anywhere from some to a lot of good IMO.

I go back and forth about it. You can definitely do worse than him, but I agree about his scheme being much less effective against experienced QBs. Though they actually only gave up 20 points against the Rams and seemingly fixed their issues in the second half. It was the offense that couldn't get their #### together.

It might do the players some good. I think for Dallas Turner he just happens to be behind some good players on the depth chart. He's technically 2nd string to Van Ginkel. It wasn't like he was getting playing time and doing poorly, he just wasn't getting much playing time.

[Cliff]

His body of work to this point suggests he is far more likely a 2017 Case Keenum or 2017 Nick Foles than someone who is truly evolving into a reliable starting QB.

You may be right. So far his body of work on a team with good offensive weapons is 1 year though.

Darnold was sacked 9 times largely because he was again indecisive, made incorrect or late reads, and as a result held the ball way too long. I understand the criticism of the OL personnel and blocking schemes, but let's be honest - no QB can hold the ball for 4+ seconds play after play and not be under a ton of pressure. Being at the game, I thought it was amazing he wasn't sacked more given how he played. I thought the OL battled like crazy. They weren't dominant but they were leaving it all out there and Darnold was just panicky and would again not throw the ball even to open receivers.

I just watched a video of all 9 sacks and they seem to break down like this:

#1 linemen are pushed into him within 2 seconds
#2 Darnold steps into the pocket after about 2 seconds. He is seemingly prepared to throw on the 3rd second when the center let a man up the gut
#3 Man runs free to Darnold, no time to respond
#4 Darnold avoids pressure from his right, TE misses the chip on the left, free run to the QB from blindside, roughly 3 seconds, fumble
#5 Darnold dances around and holds the ball too long
#6 Interior lineman misses the block on a stunt, hilariously dives at the rusher from behind, roughly 3 seconds
#7 Darnold dances around and holds the ball too long
#8 Left guard literally stops blocking his man to help the LT, LG's man runs free, roughly 3 seconds
#9 Darnold is about to throw it at 3ish seconds and realizes the LT has lost. This is on Darnold, had an open man and chose to pull it down rather than throw it and take the hit.



The first 4 are definitely not Darnold's fault and then he starts to get antsy.

Actually reviewing each sack in the video ... Darrisaw is missed ...

I don't mind if they bring Darnold back on another $10 million one year deal as insurance for McCarthy, but I would greatly mind if they signed him for more than that or worse, signed him for a larger amount or longer term. He's a backup, journeyman QB who had a decent run this year and nothing more. Time to move on at the starting QB spot, and logically that QB should be JJ McCarthy.

I'm not sure what he is anymore. I do agree he shouldn't be paid a big amount. I'd be comfortable at 25m/yr for two years.

[Barry]

O line took a beating. Sam got spooked and held the ball too long. KOC needed to call quick hit passes.
A lack of adjustments haunted these last two games. We are mostly talking offense, but the defense was giving up yards in chunks. I had a friend text me and ask how this team won so many games, and the answer was we jumped out to quick leads and held on! The defense can bend when you have a lead, not when playing from behind.

All very frustrating. At least we don't have to worry about going 0-5 in Super Bowls.
Forty Eight years straight not having that worry.
These quotes nail it for me:

KOC still is really stubborn as a play caller I think. Call some quick hitters for the love of god.

KOC, on the other hand, ... Poor clock management, poor play calling, failure to recognize what his players were best suited to do....it was all very concerning.

Each of these scream either play calling (need quick hits), Sam spooked and holding the ball, the O-line getting pushed around, or a combination.

I just watched a video of all 9 sacks and they seem to break down like this:

#1 linemen are pushed into him within 2 seconds
#2 Darnold steps into the pocket after about 2 seconds. He is seemingly prepared to throw on the 3rd second when the center let a man up the gut
#3 Man runs free to Darnold, no time to respond
#4 Darnold avoids pressure from his right, TE misses the chip on the left, free run to the QB from blindside, roughly 3 seconds, fumble
#5 Darnold dances around and holds the ball too long
#6 Interior lineman misses the block on a stunt, hilariously dives at the rusher from behind, roughly 3 seconds
#7 Darnold dances around and holds the ball too long
#8 Left guard literally stops blocking his man to help the LT, LG's man runs free, roughly 3 seconds
#9 Darnold is about to throw it at 3ish seconds and realizes the LT has lost. This is on Darnold, had an open man and chose to pull it down rather than throw it and take the hit.

[VikingLord]

You may be right. So far his body of work on a team with good offensive weapons is 1 year though.

All year long, with the exception of a few games, I would have bought your argument.

But the last two games he destroyed the credibility of that argument, at least in my view. He had the weapons and the same guys around him on offense that he had all year and unless you're willing to buy the argument that it was they who suddenly failed, the blame for the dramatic dropoff in offensive performance falls squarely at Darnold's feet.

He was a one-year vet on the minimum deal. There was a good reason for that. He popped for a while, but we've seen that before with even lesser QBs than Darnold. It's really not all that rare for a guy who has a reputation or has never had a lot of success to find a spark for some period of time and enjoy success, but in the end it's never sustainable.

I think it was Stump (sorry if it wasn't you) who once posted that if a QB doesn't shine within like the first 6 games of the time he takes over the starting role, the chances of him ever shining for any period of time in the future is close to zero. In other words, a guy either shows he can get on the bike and ride it, or he will never really be able to ride it well. Darnold, at least up to this point in his pro career, has never ridden the bike well. Even this year there were many times and games where he wobbled around a lot and was saved by his defense or special teams. To his credit, he made some great plays as well. But nothing about him strikes me as sustainable. Nothing. If the Vikings don't implement their actual plan at QB going forward at this point it will be a huge disappointment and large step backwards.

The first 4 are definitely not Darnold's fault and then he starts to get antsy.

Actually reviewing each sack in the video ... Darrisaw is missed ...

I'm sure all of the sacks weren't solely his fault, but he failed to read the pressure and get rid of the ball. One could argue that any time a QB takes a sack it is the QB's fault for not getting rid of the ball. Most plays have safety valves for quick read/release and most QBs can chuck it somewhere out of reach of defenders while avoiding grounding. Heck, look at the masterful job Stafford did avoiding a sure sack on that fumble that was called back, or what Goff did to avoid the safety in the game against Detroit. The rules are designed to not only protect the QB, but to help him avoid sacks. So taking 9 in a single game is just a terrible performance by the QB no matter how bad the pass blocking was or how many times the defense sent extra rushers.

Along those lines he also threw a bad pick, was terribly inaccurate on multiple throws (that throw to Addison in the 1st quarter was TERRIBLE. Amazing play by Addison to bring that down. I watched that route develop. Addison was open out of the break. Pass should have come out sooner and was a very normal throw that should been into the numbers or even a bit out in front of him so he could maintain momentum out of his break. Instead, he has to wait for it and leap way up to grab it with the defender bearing down on him the whole time. And so it would go like that most of the rest of the night), and just generally looked like he had never seen anything the Rams did. There were multiple times when receivers were open in NFL windows. Not wide open, but open. Darnold would not let it go. The fact he took only 9 sacks is actually a testament to the OL more than an indictment of them, at least from the row where I was sitting.

[StumpHunter]

You may be right. So far his body of work on a team with good offensive weapons is 1 year though.

All year long, with the exception of a few games, I would have bought your argument.

But the last two games he destroyed the credibility of that argument, at least in my view. He had the weapons and the same guys around him on offense that he had all year and unless you're willing to buy the argument that it was they who suddenly failed, the blame for the dramatic dropoff in offensive performance falls squarely at Darnold's feet.

He was a one-year vet on the minimum deal. There was a good reason for that. He popped for a while, but we've seen that before with even lesser QBs than Darnold. It's really not all that rare for a guy who has a reputation or has never had a lot of success to find a spark for some period of time and enjoy success, but in the end it's never sustainable.

I think it was Stump (sorry if it wasn't you) who once posted that if a QB doesn't shine within like the first 6 games of the time he takes over the starting role, the chances of him ever shining for any period of time in the future is close to zero. In other words, a guy either shows he can get on the bike and ride it, or he will never really be able to ride it well. Darnold, at least up to this point in his pro career, has never ridden the bike well. Even this year there were many times and games where he wobbled around a lot and was saved by his defense or special teams. To his credit, he made some great plays as well. But nothing about him strikes me as sustainable. Nothing. If the Vikings don't implement their actual plan at QB going forward at this point it will be a huge disappointment and large step backwards.

The first 4 are definitely not Darnold's fault and then he starts to get antsy.

Actually reviewing each sack in the video ... Darrisaw is missed ...

I'm sure all of the sacks weren't solely his fault, but he failed to read the pressure and get rid of the ball. One could argue that any time a QB takes a sack it is the QB's fault for not getting rid of the ball. Most plays have safety valves for quick read/release and most QBs can chuck it somewhere out of reach of defenders while avoiding grounding. Heck, look at the masterful job Stafford did avoiding a sure sack on that fumble that was called back, or what Goff did to avoid the safety in the game against Detroit. The rules are designed to not only protect the QB, but to help him avoid sacks. So taking 9 in a single game is just a terrible performance by the QB no matter how bad the pass blocking was or how many times the defense sent extra rushers.

Along those lines he also threw a bad pick, was terribly inaccurate on multiple throws (that throw to Addison in the 1st quarter was TERRIBLE. Amazing play by Addison to bring that down. I watched that route develop. Addison was open out of the break. Pass should have come out sooner and was a very normal throw that should been into the numbers or even a bit out in front of him so he could maintain momentum out of his break. Instead, he has to wait for it and leap way up to grab it with the defender bearing down on him the whole time. And so it would go like that most of the rest of the night), and just generally looked like he had never seen anything the Rams did. There were multiple times when receivers were open in NFL windows. Not wide open, but open. Darnold would not let it go. The fact he took only 9 sacks is actually a testament to the OL more than an indictment of them, at least from the row where I was sitting.

The only QB to hold the ball longer than 2.5 seconds at a higher percentage of their dropbacks was rookie Bo Nix this weekend. He was #1 in that stat on the season. The guy is just way too slow on his reads to be a good starting QB.

[VikingLord]

O line took a beating. Sam got spooked and held the ball too long. KOC needed to call quick hit passes.
A lack of adjustments haunted these last two games. We are mostly talking offense, but the defense was giving up yards in chunks. I had a friend text me and ask how this team won so many games, and the answer was we jumped out to quick leads and held on! The defense can bend when you have a lead, not when playing from behind.

All very frustrating. At least we don't have to worry about going 0-5 in Super Bowls.
Forty Eight years straight not having that worry.
These quotes nail it for me:

KOC still is really stubborn as a play caller I think. Call some quick hitters for the love of god.

KOC, on the other hand, ... Poor clock management, poor play calling, failure to recognize what his players were best suited to do....it was all very concerning.

Each of these scream either play calling (need quick hits), Sam spooked and holding the ball, the O-line getting pushed around, or a combination.

I just watched a video of all 9 sacks and they seem to break down like this:

#1 linemen are pushed into him within 2 seconds
#2 Darnold steps into the pocket after about 2 seconds. He is seemingly prepared to throw on the 3rd second when the center let a man up the gut
#3 Man runs free to Darnold, no time to respond
#4 Darnold avoids pressure from his right, TE misses the chip on the left, free run to the QB from blindside, roughly 3 seconds, fumble
#5 Darnold dances around and holds the ball too long
#6 Interior lineman misses the block on a stunt, hilariously dives at the rusher from behind, roughly 3 seconds
#7 Darnold dances around and holds the ball too long
#8 Left guard literally stops blocking his man to help the LT, LG's man runs free, roughly 3 seconds
#9 Darnold is about to throw it at 3ish seconds and realizes the LT has lost. This is on Darnold, had an open man and chose to pull it down rather than throw it and take the hit.

Do you guys really believe that KOC is at fault for what happened to the offense the last two games? You really look at what happened, compared to what happened all year, and conclude that had KOC simply done something different that would have magically fixed the play of his QB in those games? KOC is calling for wildly inaccurate passes to wide open receivers? He's calling for a guy simply not letting the ball go when he has open receivers? Like there were no short route or hot read options?

I really admire KOC as a leader for taking personal responsibility for his role in things and his willingness to look at himself first. He has been a little stubborn at times as a playcaller, some of his clock management is questionable, and he has been slow to adjust in some situations. But come on, nobody, not God himself, could correct what Sam Darnold was doing these last 2 games. There are no adjustments for a QB who refuses to read and react, who doesn't trust his line play, his receivers, or himself, and who simply folds under that pressure. He's like a different version of Kirk Cousins, who also was good at piling up stats with an uber-talented offense around him but who, when the chips were down and it was do or go home, folded up and went home.

[VikingLord]

The only QB to hold the ball longer than 2.5 seconds at a higher percentage of their dropbacks was rookie Bo Nix this weekend. He was #1 in that stat on the season. The guy is just way too slow on his reads to be a good starting QB.

Nix also played with back fractures, which is insane. At least he had the excuse of being a rookie with back fractures.

The best part of what happened these last two games is watching the national talking heads talk up the Lions and Rams defenses, both of which are probably going to get ripped a new one in their next games. Doesn't mean the Rams and Lions won't win. Both certainly could, but Sam Darnold just made both of those pretty average defenses look much better than they actually are. The Commanders have issues on the defensive side of the ball, but I can't wait to watch Daniels go to town on that happy happy blitz scheme they used against us. Likewise, let's see if the Rams can slow down Barkley this Sunday. I suspect he's going to run wild on them.

[makila]

O line took a beating. Sam got spooked and held the ball too long. KOC needed to call quick hit passes.
A lack of adjustments haunted these last two games. We are mostly talking offense, but the defense was giving up yards in chunks. I had a friend text me and ask how this team won so many games, and the answer was we jumped out to quick leads and held on! The defense can bend when you have a lead, not when playing from behind.

All very frustrating. At least we don't have to worry about going 0-5 in Super Bowls.
Forty Eight years straight not having that worry.
These quotes nail it for me:




Each of these scream either play calling (need quick hits), Sam spooked and holding the ball, the O-line getting pushed around, or a combination.

Do you guys really believe that KOC is at fault for what happened to the offense the last two games? You really look at what happened, compared to what happened all year, and conclude that had KOC simply done something different that would have magically fixed the play of his QB in those games? KOC is calling for wildly inaccurate passes to wide open receivers? He's calling for a guy simply not letting the ball go when he has open receivers? Like there were no short route or hot read options?

I really admire KOC as a leader for taking personal responsibility for his role in things and his willingness to look at himself first. He has been a little stubborn at times as a playcaller, some of his clock management is questionable, and he has been slow to adjust in some situations. But come on, nobody, not God himself, could correct what Sam Darnold was doing these last 2 games. There are no adjustments for a QB who refuses to read and react, who doesn't trust his line play, his receivers, or himself, and who simply folds under that pressure. He's like a different version of Kirk Cousins, who also was good at piling up stats with an uber-talented offense around him but who, when the chips were down and it was do or go home, folded up and went home.

I like KOC, and I think my comments basically allign with what you said here:

"He has been a little stubborn at times as a playcaller, some of his clock management is questionable, and he has been slow to adjust in some situations."

I absolutely think he needs to improve his ability to make in game adjustments better. That tends to come with experience. Something he is short on and I think he can improve on. I don't base my statement off one game either. It's been an underlying theme that shows up once in a while.

I do also put part of the offense going 16 straight drives, or whatever it was, without a TD on the guy who runs the offense. Not all. Not the majority, some though. His "throw it out of the slump" doesn't work when your qb isn't throwing the ball...

Do I think he is the reason we lost? Absolutely not, he just got an incredible year out of Sam. That was koc. Do I think he has some accountability in his play calling? Absolutely.

Hope we extend him soon. And I hope he learns how to make better in game adjustments when it's necessary.

[CharVike]

We played the Rams twice this year. Once when Sam was playing good and once when he sucked. Both had the same result. There is more wrong when we play them than one guy. O'Neil had a horrible game and was knocked out. He gave up the 1st sack and had a hard time with rookie Verse. O'Neil is a good player but bad games happen to all of them. Why was no adjustment made? This LG they gave a 3 year contract is about as bad as they come. The more he plays the worse he gets. He's penciled in for a few more seasons. This isn't some rookie learning the job. They let Ingram play how many seasons? He was horrible day 1 but stayed in the season. What he did was an embarrassment. Make adjustments. Put a TE in motion to pick up his miss.