Sam

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makila
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Re: Sam

Post by makila »

The last two games are why I said we can't extend him until he proved it. The regular season isn't proving it. All the qbs on big contracts now, on contending teams, proved it before the big contract. I don't care about week 10 results.

Big picture it's a good thing this discussion is over. Micro picture is another disappointing end.
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Cliff
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Re: Sam

Post by Cliff »

I don't think we can discount what Darnold did through the year. He's a major part of why the team went 14-3 and you have to be able to win throughout the year to make the playoffs.

I also can't tell if Darnold's problems were all his own. I think the Lion really gave the Rams the blueprint for defeating the Vikings. Specifically "jamming" WRs to the point where it could probably be a holding penalty on most plays. Understanding that they may pick up a couple of calls but knowing it'll be worth it in the long run. He was getting clobbered even when he wasn't holding the ball too long.

That said, he definitely was holding the ball too long and seemingly has no ability to "play jazz". When the play isn't exactly what it should be and the receivers are off of their routes a bit he's a deer in the headlights. He was definitely rattled and never got over it. I can't be too hard on him considering the offensive line, but in the end to be considered a good/great QB you need to be able to get over that.

If the Vikings could keep him as a 15m/yr insurance policy for McCarthy I'd love to do it, but I think some team is going to give him at least 30m/yr and it shouldn't be the Vikings. Roll with Daniel Jones/JJ and see what happens.

It's too bad. It would have been nice to feel like they had the QB position figured out for a few years.
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Re: Sam

Post by CharVike »

makila wrote: Tue Jan 14, 2025 8:49 am The last two games are why I said we can't extend him until he proved it. The regular season isn't proving it. All the qbs on big contracts now, on contending teams, proved it before the big contract. I don't care about week 10 results.

Big picture it's a good thing this discussion is over. Micro picture is another disappointing end.
You were right. Watching that Packer Eagle game it's hard for me to say either of those 2 highly paid QBs are far beyond the middle level people. Hurts has been to the SB and they will be hard to beat this year. They play great D when it matters and their OL opens holes and provides protection. The way we block is a major problem. Seeing these jail breaks up the middle gets old quick. Sam was getting out of the mess and making plays throughout the season. Once he started that it seems that's how he played most pass plays.
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Re: Sam

Post by CharVike »

Cliff wrote: Tue Jan 14, 2025 9:45 am I don't think we can discount what Darnold did through the year. He's a major part of why the team went 14-3 and you have to be able to win throughout the year to make the playoffs.

I also can't tell if Darnold's problems were all his own. I think the Lion really gave the Rams the blueprint for defeating the Vikings. Specifically "jamming" WRs to the point where it could probably be a holding penalty on most plays. Understanding that they may pick up a couple of calls but knowing it'll be worth it in the long run. He was getting clobbered even when he wasn't holding the ball too long.

That said, he definitely was holding the ball too long and seemingly has no ability to "play jazz". When the play isn't exactly what it should be and the receivers are off of their routes a bit he's a deer in the headlights. He was definitely rattled and never got over it. I can't be too hard on him considering the offensive line, but in the end to be considered a good/great QB you need to be able to get over that.

If the Vikings could keep him as a 15m/yr insurance policy for McCarthy I'd love to do it, but I think some team is going to give him at least 30m/yr and it shouldn't be the Vikings. Roll with Daniel Jones/JJ and see what happens.

It's too bad. It would have been nice to feel like they had the QB position figured out for a few years.
He deserves a lot of credit for our record. He brought us back how many games. He helped make the season entertaining.
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Cliff
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Re: Sam

Post by Cliff »

makila wrote: Tue Jan 14, 2025 8:49 am The last two games are why I said we can't extend him until he proved it. The regular season isn't proving it. All the qbs on big contracts now, on contending teams, proved it before the big contract. I don't care about week 10 results.

Big picture it's a good thing this discussion is over. Micro picture is another disappointing end.
He definitely didn't prove that he has what it takes to earn the "big bucks" considering his past but he also definitely wasn't a bum. You can't find QBs that played the way Sam did throughout the season on every corner. You can do a lot worse and for 10m his value was exceptional. When you look at what teams were willing to pay a QB like Cousins despite his level of play in "big games" (including KOC and the Vikings) it becomes obvious how difficult it is to find a QB able get even that far. Stack up Cousins best season as a Viking with Darnold this year and I'll take Darnold.

I don't think Darnold is the long term answer just as I never thought Cousins was, but I do think we could end up starting Jones or McCarthy and be left remembering that the grass isn't always greener on the other side.
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Re: Sam

Post by StumpHunter »

Cliff wrote: Tue Jan 14, 2025 11:13 am
makila wrote: Tue Jan 14, 2025 8:49 am The last two games are why I said we can't extend him until he proved it. The regular season isn't proving it. All the qbs on big contracts now, on contending teams, proved it before the big contract. I don't care about week 10 results.

Big picture it's a good thing this discussion is over. Micro picture is another disappointing end.
He definitely didn't prove that he has what it takes to earn the "big bucks" considering his past but he also definitely wasn't a bum. You can't find QBs that played the way Sam did throughout the season on every corner. You can do a lot worse and for 10m his value was exceptional. When you look at what teams were willing to pay a QB like Cousins despite his level of play in "big games" (including KOC and the Vikings) it becomes obvious how difficult it is to find a QB able get even that far. Stack up Cousins best season as a Viking with Darnold this year and I'll take Darnold.

I don't think Darnold is the long term answer just as I never thought Cousins was, but I do think we could end up starting Jones or McCarthy and be left remembering that the grass isn't always greener on the other side.
It is a risk-reward question.

If we move on from Darnold, the reward could be we find a QB who could actually compete in the playoffs, while the risk would be that we might end up with a QB who isn't as good in the regular season.

Not only is the risk not that big of a deal, but I also think the odds of us actually being significantly worse with whatever QB we go with next year versus Darnold is pretty low, while the odds of finding a QB who could actually give us more of a chance to compete in the playoffs is pretty high, considering you can't get much worse than what Darnold gave us two straight weeks.
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Re: Sam

Post by psjordan »

VikingLord wrote: Thu Jan 09, 2025 2:03 pm
psjordan wrote: Thu Jan 09, 2025 10:42 am I have absolutely no idea which Sam Darnold will show up against the Rams...My gut tells me it's 70% chance a repeat of the Lions game and 30% chance the "good" Sam Darnold will show.

And in the spirit of Lucy pulling the ball away, I can EASILY see him crumbling in the Rams game JUST so our offseaon QB plans can be as muddled as humanly possible.
I would say it's unlikely we'll see a repeat of the second Lions game ...To have two games in a row playing at that level would be very unlikely. I expect him to bounce back at least to a degree. I'd put the odds around 90% we see him play better, and around 75% he plays much better, at least for some periods of the game.
I must be older and much more jaded than you! :lol:

On a more serious note, it's amazing how two weeks give a COMPLETELY different feel for our offseason, at least for me anyways. I'm sure McCarthy and Jones were fully rooting for the Vikes to win, but I can't help thinking Jones may be a little excited over the future possibilities and McCarthy just had a lot of pressure put on him?

I really don't know or understand what the rules are regarding hurt players hanging around the team, but I've read nothing about McCarthy taking mental reps, film room habits, studying gameplans, etc. I mean all that stuff HAS to be happening, yes?

Anyways, keeping this thread about Sam, I've never seen a guy "lose" that much potential money in two weeks. The market for him, either with us or someone else, now seems muddy as all get-out. I mean, doesn't it seem BEST CASE (for him) he re-signs with us at another reduced-rate, prove-it contract? How does the team NOT give Jones or McCarthy a shot? And assuming we don't let Darnold walk, how does all that get played/worded between now and OTA's?

Just another tumultuous offseason for Vikes fans. Sigh.
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Re: Sam

Post by VikingLord »

psjordan wrote: Tue Jan 14, 2025 12:31 pm
VikingLord wrote: Thu Jan 09, 2025 2:03 pm

I would say it's unlikely we'll see a repeat of the second Lions game ...To have two games in a row playing at that level would be very unlikely. I expect him to bounce back at least to a degree. I'd put the odds around 90% we see him play better, and around 75% he plays much better, at least for some periods of the game.
I must be older and much more jaded than you! :lol:

On a more serious note, it's amazing how two weeks give a COMPLETELY different feel for our offseason, at least for me anyways. I'm sure McCarthy and Jones were fully rooting for the Vikes to win, but I can't help thinking Jones may be a little excited over the future possibilities and McCarthy just had a lot of pressure put on him?

I really don't know or understand what the rules are regarding hurt players hanging around the team, but I've read nothing about McCarthy taking mental reps, film room habits, studying gameplans, etc. I mean all that stuff HAS to be happening, yes?

Anyways, keeping this thread about Sam, I've never seen a guy "lose" that much potential money in two weeks. The market for him, either with us or someone else, now seems muddy as all get-out. I mean, doesn't it seem BEST CASE (for him) he re-signs with us at another reduced-rate, prove-it contract? How does the team NOT give Jones or McCarthy a shot? And assuming we don't let Darnold walk, how does all that get played/worded between now and OTA's?

Just another tumultuous offseason for Vikes fans. Sigh.
You know, one thing I was thinking about as I watched the game last night was "really great 14 win team you have there, Vikings..."

In all seriousness, where was the fight, the character, the backbone that team had displayed all season? You watch a team battle for multiple games over a period of months and you think you can see what they are made of, and based on that you think they will shake off a bad performance and respond. And yet, you then watch them just roll over.

Sam Darnold played so well this year and showed a lot of grit and determination, and then in the end he just fell apart. I am not going to lay all of the blame at his feet because it is a team game, but what a let down.

The team was expected to win around 6-7 games this year. They won 14. They lost badly in the first round. They will now head into next year's draft with a 1st round pick around 25(?) and not draft again until round 5. Almost half of the defensive players are on expiring contracts.

If there is a bright spot, they'll have a lot of cap space to work with, and with the right moves in free agency they could be able to compete again next year.

Actually, there is another bright spot here. This post-Cousins era was marked by a lot of surprises, ranging from the play of Sam Darnold to the contributions by some of the defensive players. Had this team gone on to post-season success, KAM and KOC might have convinced themselves that they'd stumbled into a winner and tried to keep the band together, abandoning whatever longer-term plan they had in place for this team. I think these last two performances should reset any notion of that. The original plan to build a long-term winner should be back in place if it ever was off the table, and with it we Vikings fans should have reason for optimism going forward. Let's see what they will do. I'm already excited by the notion that McCarthy will be the starting QB next year and that it is very likely the interior OL will get some major new additions to shore it up.
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Re: Sam

Post by VikingLord »

StumpHunter wrote: Tue Jan 14, 2025 11:56 am
Cliff wrote: Tue Jan 14, 2025 11:13 am

He definitely didn't prove that he has what it takes to earn the "big bucks" considering his past but he also definitely wasn't a bum. You can't find QBs that played the way Sam did throughout the season on every corner. You can do a lot worse and for 10m his value was exceptional. When you look at what teams were willing to pay a QB like Cousins despite his level of play in "big games" (including KOC and the Vikings) it becomes obvious how difficult it is to find a QB able get even that far. Stack up Cousins best season as a Viking with Darnold this year and I'll take Darnold.

I don't think Darnold is the long term answer just as I never thought Cousins was, but I do think we could end up starting Jones or McCarthy and be left remembering that the grass isn't always greener on the other side.
It is a risk-reward question.

If we move on from Darnold, the reward could be we find a QB who could actually compete in the playoffs, while the risk would be that we might end up with a QB who isn't as good in the regular season.

Not only is the risk not that big of a deal, but I also think the odds of us actually being significantly worse with whatever QB we go with next year versus Darnold is pretty low, while the odds of finding a QB who could actually give us more of a chance to compete in the playoffs is pretty high, considering you can't get much worse than what Darnold gave us two straight weeks.
:appl:
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Re: Sam

Post by vikeinmontana »

Can't stop thinking about how much money Darnold likely cost himself in an 8-day period. That was a tough week of football.
i'm ready for a beer.
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Re: Sam

Post by Cliff »

StumpHunter wrote: Tue Jan 14, 2025 11:56 am
Cliff wrote: Tue Jan 14, 2025 11:13 am

He definitely didn't prove that he has what it takes to earn the "big bucks" considering his past but he also definitely wasn't a bum. You can't find QBs that played the way Sam did throughout the season on every corner. You can do a lot worse and for 10m his value was exceptional. When you look at what teams were willing to pay a QB like Cousins despite his level of play in "big games" (including KOC and the Vikings) it becomes obvious how difficult it is to find a QB able get even that far. Stack up Cousins best season as a Viking with Darnold this year and I'll take Darnold.

I don't think Darnold is the long term answer just as I never thought Cousins was, but I do think we could end up starting Jones or McCarthy and be left remembering that the grass isn't always greener on the other side.
It is a risk-reward question.

If we move on from Darnold, the reward could be we find a QB who could actually compete in the playoffs, while the risk would be that we might end up with a QB who isn't as good in the regular season.

Not only is the risk not that big of a deal, but I also think the odds of us actually being significantly worse with whatever QB we go with next year versus Darnold is pretty low, while the odds of finding a QB who could actually give us more of a chance to compete in the playoffs is pretty high, considering you can't get much worse than what Darnold gave us two straight weeks.
I don't understand why you think it'll be so easy to find a QB that can put up the same performances Darnold did this season. His last two games don't define his entire season.

I know a lot of people have bought into the "KOC is just a QB whisperer and his system is the reason Darnold did well" narrative but it's not that simple at all. The Vikings cycled through three other QBs when Cousins went down in 2023. Dobbs started 5 games and ended up with a 76.4 QB rating. Mullins started 5 games and ended with an 88.4 QB rating. Hall started one game and ended with a 70.4 rating. Dobbs had his best games before he had a real grasp of the "system" at all.

People expect McCarthy or Daniel Jones to come in and play at least as well as Darnold. Maybe they do, but I wouldn't count on it. Most QBs are busts, and KOC isn't magic. I don't think Darnold is necessarily the long term answer at QB for the Vikings, these last two big games are part of why, but I don't assume just anyone can come in and do just as well.
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Re: Sam

Post by CharVike »

VikingLord wrote: Tue Jan 14, 2025 2:01 pm
StumpHunter wrote: Tue Jan 14, 2025 11:56 am

It is a risk-reward question.

If we move on from Darnold, the reward could be we find a QB who could actually compete in the playoffs, while the risk would be that we might end up with a QB who isn't as good in the regular season.

Not only is the risk not that big of a deal, but I also think the odds of us actually being significantly worse with whatever QB we go with next year versus Darnold is pretty low, while the odds of finding a QB who could actually give us more of a chance to compete in the playoffs is pretty high, considering you can't get much worse than what Darnold gave us two straight weeks.
:appl:
If your QB don't play good in the regular season then there won't be a playoff. We saw that when Cousins went down. It wasn't even entertaining to watch the crap they inserted. Herbert for the Chargers is 0-2 in the playoffs. His last game he threw more interceptions in that game than he did all season. That's a guy that can't compete in the playoffs and makes plenty of cash for his regular season success. Should they dump that loser? I don't think so. QBs except for Mahomes go through progression. Lamar has a terrible playoff record but it has improved through the years. Maybe this is his year. Handing off to Henry helps big time. This was the first time Darnold was in the playoffs and he chocked. That's happen before to most if not all of them. He's gone anyway and we will insert a guy who won the Nat Championship. A proven winner. Of course it was a run heavy attack and we don't exactly have a thundering ground game. Close to impossible to run inside the 20. That won't help his chances. Sam is done but he gave me an enjoyable season for a change. He makes throws when he's on that very few can make. Bullets into the middle of the field gaps and deep outs. Those outs help big time. Danny dimes isn't doing that with his noodle arm. JJM has a chance if he's found his touch for the pro level and they give him a little ground game. We'll see how he does after a few big hits. Hopefully he can hold up like Sam did. Time will tell.
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Re: Sam

Post by CharVike »

Cliff wrote: Wed Jan 15, 2025 9:54 am
StumpHunter wrote: Tue Jan 14, 2025 11:56 am

It is a risk-reward question.

If we move on from Darnold, the reward could be we find a QB who could actually compete in the playoffs, while the risk would be that we might end up with a QB who isn't as good in the regular season.

Not only is the risk not that big of a deal, but I also think the odds of us actually being significantly worse with whatever QB we go with next year versus Darnold is pretty low, while the odds of finding a QB who could actually give us more of a chance to compete in the playoffs is pretty high, considering you can't get much worse than what Darnold gave us two straight weeks.
I don't understand why you think it'll be so easy to find a QB that can put up the same performances Darnold did this season. His last two games don't define his entire season.

I know a lot of people have bought into the "KOC is just a QB whisperer and his system is the reason Darnold did well" narrative but it's not that simple at all. The Vikings cycled through three other QBs when Cousins went down in 2023. Dobbs started 5 games and ended up with a 76.4 QB rating. Mullins started 5 games and ended with an 88.4 QB rating. Hall started one game and ended with a 70.4 rating. Dobbs had his best games before he had a real grasp of the "system" at all.

People expect McCarthy or Daniel Jones to come in and play at least as well as Darnold. Maybe they do, but I wouldn't count on it. Most QBs are busts, and KOC isn't magic. I don't think Darnold is necessarily the long term answer at QB for the Vikings, these last two big games are part of why, but I don't assume just anyone can come in and do just as well.
That whisper stuff is nonsense. A 3-0 game in great weather proves that. He needed to whisper to Sammy during the Ram game but stood there looking stunned. In the 4th quarter he goes into go home mode running the ball. Then wakes up and starts throwing. That's not understanding or knowing the situation. Just go 2 WRs with max protect and throw bombs. Anything can happen.
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Re: Sam

Post by chicagopurple »

EXACTLY, KOC looked just as shaken and lost as Darnold. No HC should ever get rattled like that. He was overwhelmed for 2 straight critical games. Its very disturbing to see.
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Re: Sam

Post by CharVike »

chicagopurple wrote: Wed Jan 15, 2025 2:34 pm EXACTLY, KOC looked just as shaken and lost as Darnold. No HC should ever get rattled like that. He was overwhelmed for 2 straight critical games. Its very disturbing to see.
How many times did we have delay of game or rushing to get a play in. That's all on KOC. No plan for the situation. Another thing Jones is on the roster place him at RB and put him in motion. The Rams would have scrambled. Shake them up. Get us off the slide. Unable to beat man with stiff CBs is getting out coached big time. KOC is called an offensive guru. Ask our last 2 opponents.