Cardinals at Vikings

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CharVike
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Cardinals at Vikings

Post by CharVike »

Back home facing a team coming off a physical beat down. The Cardinals are a hard team to look at. They are all over the board. They have blown out teams and they have been blown out. 3 of their wins are by a total of 4 points combined. I don't expect much of a fight from them. They are back to square one trying to figure out how to block people. They didn't even score a TD last week and Murray threw a pick 6. He's considered one of the best in the game but I have no idea why. But their OL was destroyed. They couldn't run the ball and Murray was pressured often and sacked 5 times. The Hawks owned the point. That OL hasn't played that bad all year. On our side the Cards are weak in the secondary. Nothing great at CB which means guys should be wide open. But if we can't block then it will be a struggle to hit open guys or make good decisions. I feel much more confident with this than the Bear game. It won't be the long desired blowout and I see it 27-12 us.
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Re: Cardinals at Vikings

Post by VikingLord »

Cardinals this year are probably the definition of "average" across-the-board. Average offense (stronger running than passing, but neither are great), average defense (not particularly strong against either the run or pass and generate so-so pass rush pressure, average special teams. Murray is kind of a wildcard with his scrambling ability and can hurt defenses with his feet (which is the main reason their run stats are better), but overall, this is a team a good team should beat, especially at home.
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Re: Cardinals at Vikings

Post by CharVike »

Great game by Sammy. He can throw lasers. Our OL did him no favors. Moving out of the mess and hitting Mundt for a TD was nice. Two games in a row with a last drive for the winning score. The D made the stop to end it or really Murray just threw a soft arching pass for an easy pick. I just hope Gilmore is ok.
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Re: Cardinals at Vikings

Post by VikingLord »

The board is pretty quiet after a thrilling win and a 10-2 record. Hopefully it picks up a little more around here.

As for my observations on the game, I was convinced the Vikings were going to lose the game after the way the first half went. The two early fumbles looked like a sign of the way the game would go, and then the Vikings seemed to have no answers for the overload blitzes the Cardinals ran repeatedly throughout the game. They made adjustments as the game went on, but even late the Cardinals were still sending the house at Darnold. 75 yards of total offense and 5 first downs for a half of football (at home, nonetheless) is not what elite offenses are made of, so hopefully KOC makes the adjustments needed to prevent future opponents from replicating what was a very successful defensive strategy against his offense for that first half.

Speaking of offense, I continue to be amazed at how long Darnold holds the ball, and we saw it again for a long stretch of yesterday's game. I can't blame all the sacks Darnold took on that as the Cardinals got home several times with free rushers, but on other plays where the Cardinals didn't have a free rusher they managed to get sacks because Darnold just seems to take forever to decide where to go with the ball. As the game went on and the Vikings needed to score to get back in it, Darnold seemed to become more decisive and have better timing, which I also think is one of the reasons the Cardinals blitz packages became less effective, but why can't we see that Darnold for a whole game? Yeah, yeah, I know. Darnold's pass rating for the game was very good and his final stats were good. No picks, made some nice throws. And I agree, he did make some really nice throws and was a big reason they won. But still, he seems to have two modes - one where he drops back, doesn't throw it with good rhythm or timing, and often throws it into coverage when he does throw it, and a second mode where he has great rhythm and timing, the ball is out quickly, and he's dropping dimes. If the Vikings are going to win in the playoffs, they'll need the second mode from Darnold for entire games.

The defense is another story. They didn't look all that great for long stretches of the game yesterday, but managed to tighten up when it mattered for the most part. Murray's ability to escape pressure and pick up yards with his legs was a big factor, but they struggled to get off the field on 3rd down and were generally inconsistent.

Not sure if this team is for real or is fool's gold. I keep thinking they will turn the corner here at some point and dominate an opponent but they continue to play right along with their competition at whatever level their competition is. Maybe they'll have a break out game now that Kirko-Clause is coming to town. He just threw 4 picks and his confidence might be low. This would be a great time for the Vikings to take advantage of a team that seems to have a mojo problem and get another critical win.
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Re: Cardinals at Vikings

Post by CharVike »

VikingLord wrote: Mon Dec 02, 2024 10:26 am The board is pretty quiet after a thrilling win and a 10-2 record. Hopefully it picks up a little more around here.

As for my observations on the game, I was convinced the Vikings were going to lose the game after the way the first half went. The two early fumbles looked like a sign of the way the game would go, and then the Vikings seemed to have no answers for the overload blitzes the Cardinals ran repeatedly throughout the game. They made adjustments as the game went on, but even late the Cardinals were still sending the house at Darnold. 75 yards of total offense and 5 first downs for a half of football (at home, nonetheless) is not what elite offenses are made of, so hopefully KOC makes the adjustments needed to prevent future opponents from replicating what was a very successful defensive strategy against his offense for that first half.

Speaking of offense, I continue to be amazed at how long Darnold holds the ball, and we saw it again for a long stretch of yesterday's game. I can't blame all the sacks Darnold took on that as the Cardinals got home several times with free rushers, but on other plays where the Cardinals didn't have a free rusher they managed to get sacks because Darnold just seems to take forever to decide where to go with the ball. As the game went on and the Vikings needed to score to get back in it, Darnold seemed to become more decisive and have better timing, which I also think is one of the reasons the Cardinals blitz packages became less effective, but why can't we see that Darnold for a whole game? Yeah, yeah, I know. Darnold's pass rating for the game was very good and his final stats were good. No picks, made some nice throws. And I agree, he did make some really nice throws and was a big reason they won. But still, he seems to have two modes - one where he drops back, doesn't throw it with good rhythm or timing, and often throws it into coverage when he does throw it, and a second mode where he has great rhythm and timing, the ball is out quickly, and he's dropping dimes. If the Vikings are going to win in the playoffs, they'll need the second mode from Darnold for entire games.

The defense is another story. They didn't look all that great for long stretches of the game yesterday, but managed to tighten up when it mattered for the most part. Murray's ability to escape pressure and pick up yards with his legs was a big factor, but they struggled to get off the field on 3rd down and were generally inconsistent.

Not sure if this team is for real or is fool's gold. I keep thinking they will turn the corner here at some point and dominate an opponent but they continue to play right along with their competition at whatever level their competition is. Maybe they'll have a break out game now that Kirko-Clause is coming to town. He just threw 4 picks and his confidence might be low. This would be a great time for the Vikings to take advantage of a team that seems to have a mojo problem and get another critical win.
I'm not sure if the 2nd mode is all him or not. They had a different pace after half time for some reason. The Cards are fighting for the division title and have an elite QB according to most. Their HC said it's playoff mode for them which is stupid to say. It's hard to beat a team like that by 30 points if that's what you're looking for. If our OL continues to play like crap it will be impossible to dominate. If Jones continues to turn the ball over it will be impossible. My biggest concern is the OL. They let guys run free up the middle. How many seasons of this. Darnold said he was forced to take sacks. That kills drives. It's close to impossible when you can't block people. It's that simple. It would be impossible for a young QB to develop when you can't block. It happens over and over in the NFL. I think we are for real. Right now we are fighting for the division title. We lost already to the Lions and of course Darnold will get the blame but Flores didn't get the D playing. He was out coached. That Lion team was lucky to beat the Bears so are they for real? The media thinks they are. I think their front 7 is lacking on D and they lost a dominating player. Our OL should be able to dominate that group. If they do we will beat them provided we don't give it away with stupid TOs. They have a terrific OL and great skill players including 2 deep at RB. That group is better than ours. Goff is better than Sammy but he has his crap games like that 5 interception game. You don't win many when your QB plays that bad. Somehow they pulled that one off. Bottom line we pulled the game out and the Cards are not a bottom feeder team and needed this game badly. Their elite QB threw a couple 2nd half picks which didn't help.
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Re: Cardinals at Vikings

Post by VikingLord »

CharVike wrote: Mon Dec 02, 2024 12:41 pm My biggest concern is the OL. They let guys run free up the middle. How many seasons of this. Darnold said he was forced to take sacks. That kills drives. It's close to impossible when you can't block people. It's that simple.
While I agree with this, what it looks like to me is that the Cardinals just overloaded on the blitz and KOC failed to adjust his blocking schemes to account for it. I don't know if he felt like Darnold should have been able to get the ball out more quickly or what happened, but the Cards just kept overloading and the Vikings kept not adjusting and it led to Darnold taking a lot of sacks and the offense clocking in a whopping 75 yards of total offense and a huge TOP disparity at the end of the 1st half. There were times where Darnold seemed to fail to recognize where the blitz was coming from and at least on a couple of those blitzes it looked like he had an outlet option. Maybe KOC felt the same which is why he didn't adjust his blocking schemes to account for the extra pressure. Whatever it was, the Vikings can expect a lot more of it from their opponents going forward if they can't show they can deal with it.

But I don't think it was the blocking by itself that was the problem. When the Cards rushed four, Darnold had time for the most part.

To their credit the Vikings finally did seem to overcome the blitz pressure. Of course, it would have been nice to see them really burn the Cards once or twice with big plays, but I'll take the win even if it was underwhelming in many respects.
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Re: Cardinals at Vikings

Post by CharVike »

VikingLord wrote: Mon Dec 02, 2024 1:07 pm
CharVike wrote: Mon Dec 02, 2024 12:41 pm My biggest concern is the OL. They let guys run free up the middle. How many seasons of this. Darnold said he was forced to take sacks. That kills drives. It's close to impossible when you can't block people. It's that simple.
While I agree with this, what it looks like to me is that the Cardinals just overloaded on the blitz and KOC failed to adjust his blocking schemes to account for it. I don't know if he felt like Darnold should have been able to get the ball out more quickly or what happened, but the Cards just kept overloading and the Vikings kept not adjusting and it led to Darnold taking a lot of sacks and the offense clocking in a whopping 75 yards of total offense and a huge TOP disparity at the end of the 1st half. There were times where Darnold seemed to fail to recognize where the blitz was coming from and at least on a couple of those blitzes it looked like he had an outlet option. Maybe KOC felt the same which is why he didn't adjust his blocking schemes to account for the extra pressure. Whatever it was, the Vikings can expect a lot more of it from their opponents going forward if they can't show they can deal with it.

But I don't think it was the blocking by itself that was the problem. When the Cards rushed four, Darnold had time for the most part.

To their credit the Vikings finally did seem to overcome the blitz pressure. Of course, it would have been nice to see them really burn the Cards once or twice with big plays, but I'll take the win even if it was underwhelming in many respects.
Sam said he missed some line calls. I don't know how this stuff works with the QB making line calls. But I agree it's more than just the OL itself. We couldn't move the ball in the first half. Our O looked like garbage. I'll pin that on the coaching more than anything else. I'm glad we got the win and all 3 parts made that happen. Sam made some throws that not many would even attempt. Every game will be a dog fight. I thought for sure we would lose. But the whole team never gave up and I credit the coaching and leaders for that. It's a fun team to watch. Just like the 2022 season was. But we are better now because we can play some D and Sam has better physical skills.
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Re: Cardinals at Vikings

Post by chicagopurple »

I think a lot of what we see in terms of the team playing flat, esp the offense goes back to having a very young coach. His team, to everyone's surprise, is currently top ranked and now expected to go far. Young coaches have a tendency to turtle up and get conservative in crunch time. They play not to lose rather than aggressively to win. Hopefully, our coach is getting some experience and can listen to some of the veterans around him ( do we have any old dogs in the coaching staff? not that I can think of). At some point he needs to let loose the dogs, get back the the aggression he showed at the beginning of the season when he felt he had less to lose, less pressure.
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Re: Cardinals at Vikings

Post by Husker Vike »

We have done a good job of keeping teams out of the endzone, and continued doing that against the Cardinals. Bradbury is a concern as well as Jones turnovers, but we seem to find a way to outscore our opponents. Would like to see us play a complete four quarters and dominate a game before the playoffs.
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Re: Cardinals at Vikings

Post by VikingLord »

CharVike wrote: Mon Dec 02, 2024 3:28 pm Sam said he missed some line calls. I don't know how this stuff works with the QB making line calls.
Part of it is pre-snap and the QB/center (not sure who makes the protection calls for blocking) recognizing a blitz package, and part of it is post-snap with the QB recognizing where the pressure is coming from and reacting accordingly. In addition to blocking assignments, the offense can also move the QB around post-snap like on a designed rollout as well as do things like delayed handoffs/screens to counter aggressive blitz packages. So some of it is on the players and some of it is on the offensive coordinator but it is possible to deal with aggressive blitz schemes. To their credit I felt the Vikings made some adjustments in the second half but they came almost too late. I don't think they will be able to go 3 quarters again not moving the ball and scoring like that.
CharVike wrote: Mon Dec 02, 2024 3:28 pm But the whole team never gave up and I credit the coaching and leaders for that. It's a fun team to watch. Just like the 2022 season was. But we are better now because we can play some D and Sam has better physical skills.
Darnold seems to have a second gear he can hit when he needs to and that has been a major factor in several of the recent wins where the offense has otherwise stagnated for long stretches of games. I just wish he could find that gear earlier and for longer periods of time, but he's got a lot of fight in him and that is encouraging to see.

If there is a year where I think getting home field in the playoffs might be the difference between success and failure in the postseason, this is the year, so the Vikings really need to finish strong and give themselves that chance.
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Re: Cardinals at Vikings

Post by Cliff »

The defense looked great. The Jones fumble gave them the ball in the red zone and they held them to a FG. I'm ok with "Bend don't break" when you've got offensive weapons like the Vikings do.

The offense stalled out in the first half but that happens when you keep taking sacks on 3rd down. I'm sure part of it is them missing Darrisaw. He probably allows the LT position to basically never need help. It's hard to tell what's happening now, but I have to think missing your best player on the offensive line is part of the problem.

The problem with Darnold's "2nd gear" is that it's forcing passes. When you don't have a choice, you take the chances, but those kinds of throws can also be interceptions. He fit some of those passes into pretty tight windows. Basically there is a time to "take what the other team gives you" and a time to make plays even if they're a bit more dangerous.

If we want Darnold to take those gambles and rifle it into receivers that aren't definitely open, you also have to be willing to accept the potential consequences. We can't have it both ways.
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Re: Cardinals at Vikings

Post by VikingLord »

Cliff wrote: Tue Dec 03, 2024 12:32 pm The defense looked great. The Jones fumble gave them the ball in the red zone and they held them to a FG. I'm ok with "Bend don't break" when you've got offensive weapons like the Vikings do.
Defense didn't let the Cardinals into the endzone much, but then again, the Cardinals weren't exactly an offense that gets into the endzone much against anyone. The defense gave up over 400 yards of offense and over 150 rushing yards for the game and again wasn't great at getting off the field when given the opportunity. I can't say they played great.
Cliff wrote: Tue Dec 03, 2024 12:32 pm The offense stalled out in the first half but that happens when you keep taking sacks on 3rd down. I'm sure part of it is them missing Darrisaw. He probably allows the LT position to basically never need help. It's hard to tell what's happening now, but I have to think missing your best player on the offensive line is part of the problem.
I don't think Robinson gave up a sack. Maybe some pressures, but most of the Cardinals pressure came on overload blitzes with a free runner IIRC. When they rushed four I don't think they got much pressure at all.
Cliff wrote: Tue Dec 03, 2024 12:32 pm The problem with Darnold's "2nd gear" is that it's forcing passes. When you don't have a choice, you take the chances, but those kinds of throws can also be interceptions. He fit some of those passes into pretty tight windows. Basically there is a time to "take what the other team gives you" and a time to make plays even if they're a bit more dangerous.

If we want Darnold to take those gambles and rifle it into receivers that aren't definitely open, you also have to be willing to accept the potential consequences. We can't have it both ways.
I'm fine with chances - just don't throw it directly to defensive backs. There is a difference between an aggressive pass attempt where a defender makes a great read or play on the ball and simply throwing the ball right to a defender who otherwise has to do little or nothing to pick it off. It's those types of picks that Darnold needs to avoid.
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Re: Cardinals at Vikings

Post by CharVike »

Cliff wrote: Tue Dec 03, 2024 12:32 pm The defense looked great. The Jones fumble gave them the ball in the red zone and they held them to a FG. I'm ok with "Bend don't break" when you've got offensive weapons like the Vikings do.

The offense stalled out in the first half but that happens when you keep taking sacks on 3rd down. I'm sure part of it is them missing Darrisaw. He probably allows the LT position to basically never need help. It's hard to tell what's happening now, but I have to think missing your best player on the offensive line is part of the problem.

The problem with Darnold's "2nd gear" is that it's forcing passes. When you don't have a choice, you take the chances, but those kinds of throws can also be interceptions. He fit some of those passes into pretty tight windows. Basically there is a time to "take what the other team gives you" and a time to make plays even if they're a bit more dangerous.

If we want Darnold to take those gambles and rifle it into receivers that aren't definitely open, you also have to be willing to accept the potential consequences. We can't have it both ways.
Maybe Oliver being out caused issues. We got whipped at the point. This passing goes back and forth. Sometimes you have to take a risk. Quicker throws can have draw backs to. We picked off Danny Dimes on a short one and ran it in if they get jumped it's over.
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Re: Cardinals at Vikings

Post by Cliff »

VikingLord wrote: Tue Dec 03, 2024 2:00 pmDefense didn't let the Cardinals into the endzone much, but then again, the Cardinals weren't exactly an offense that gets into the endzone much against anyone. The defense gave up over 400 yards of offense and over 150 rushing yards for the game and again wasn't great at getting off the field when given the opportunity. I can't say they played great.
I can downgrade the wording from "great" but they were at least "good". Despite the yardage, and despite being put in a tough position a few times, they held strong in the red zone and they got 2 INTs including one to close out the game.
I don't think Robinson gave up a sack. Maybe some pressures, but most of the Cardinals pressure came on overload blitzes with a free runner IIRC. When they rushed four I don't think they got much pressure at all
It's hard to tell what happens on the offensive line exactly, but I suppose I was thinking more along the lines of where extra help might get put. I read a quote from Darnold that he failed to change up protections a few times so that may very well explain it.
I'm fine with chances - just don't throw it directly to defensive backs. There is a difference between an aggressive pass attempt where a defender makes a great read or play on the ball and simply throwing the ball right to a defender who otherwise has to do little or nothing to pick it off. It's those types of picks that Darnold needs to avoid.
I agree, though I don't recall him having made very many INTs like that. Take the Jags game. His first INT is right in Jefferson's numbers but the defender is so close he's able to swat the ball out, it goes flying in the air, and the Jets come down with it. Next INT he's trying to fit the ball between some defenders in the end zone and a guy jumps the ball. The last one he sees Jefferson on a 1v1, tosses it to him, the defender spins around Jefferson and picks it off.

The last INT while throwing to Jefferson specifically is one of those "take a chance" balls but nobody remembers the circumstances, they just remember the fact that Darnold has 3 INTs on the stat sheet.
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Re: Cardinals at Vikings

Post by Cliff »

CharVike wrote: Tue Dec 03, 2024 5:10 pm
Cliff wrote: Tue Dec 03, 2024 12:32 pm The defense looked great. The Jones fumble gave them the ball in the red zone and they held them to a FG. I'm ok with "Bend don't break" when you've got offensive weapons like the Vikings do.

The offense stalled out in the first half but that happens when you keep taking sacks on 3rd down. I'm sure part of it is them missing Darrisaw. He probably allows the LT position to basically never need help. It's hard to tell what's happening now, but I have to think missing your best player on the offensive line is part of the problem.

The problem with Darnold's "2nd gear" is that it's forcing passes. When you don't have a choice, you take the chances, but those kinds of throws can also be interceptions. He fit some of those passes into pretty tight windows. Basically there is a time to "take what the other team gives you" and a time to make plays even if they're a bit more dangerous.

If we want Darnold to take those gambles and rifle it into receivers that aren't definitely open, you also have to be willing to accept the potential consequences. We can't have it both ways.
Maybe Oliver being out caused issues. We got whipped at the point. This passing goes back and forth. Sometimes you have to take a risk. Quicker throws can have draw backs to. We picked off Danny Dimes on a short one and ran it in if they get jumped it's over.
They definitely struggled to keep Sam off the turf. Overall I'm pretty happy with the amount of risk. I think if they came out and called the plays like Darnold did at the end of the Cardinals game we'd see a lot more INTs. In my mind them limiting risk is one of the things that has helped turn Darnold around.