The Brewing QB1 Controversy

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Cliff
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Re: The Brewing QB1 Controversy

Post by Cliff »

VikingLord wrote: Wed Oct 02, 2024 10:49 am Here's another question.

At what point during this season would the Vikings need to act on an extension if they decided they wanted to retain Darnold over the longer term? Or would it be better to not let that distract from an otherwise great season? Or maybe it would become an issue for Darnold if he's playing really well and the Vikings aren't starting those conversations? Or maybe they just tell Darnold they want to keep him and they'll start contract negotiations in earnest once the season wraps up?

Man, this is what is commonly called a good problem to have, but it is also a vexing problem because the Vikings did invest in McCarthy and McCarthy does look like he could be the real deal too. In his limited offseason work he reminded me of the QB version of Cris Carter - all he does is throw TD passes. So it's tough to be so "QB rich" all of a sudden after that position has been sort of a problem child for this team for so long.
I'm pretty sure extensions, and even negotiations, can't be done mid-season.

The issue is we don't really know if the Vikings are QB rich or not. JJ looking good in the offseason doesn't count for much. Additionally, JJ had a season ending injury before he could even be named backup. Will he be able to hold up for an entire season from here on out? In my mind that's why signing Darnold is a must if he continues to play like this. I don't think you let a QB playing at that level walk unless his price is just too crazy. That said, I don't think Darnold is going to command the 220m/4 year type deals that some QBs do unless the Vikings win the super bowl and he plays well all the way there. Teams will still be too scared of his past and won't know if they can replicate the success KOC had with him. If his success continues I think his deal will be more Cousins-like. 180m/4-year/100m guaranteed.
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Re: The Brewing QB1 Controversy

Post by Cliff »

makila wrote: Wed Oct 02, 2024 9:38 am
Cliff wrote: Tue Oct 01, 2024 9:15 pm Re: Cap hit.

They were going to sign Cousins to a pretty big deal. Having a higher priced QB was actually part of the original plan. They spent the money in other places because they could, but I'm betting they would switch back to their original plan if Darnold turns out to be worth it.

I think letting a 36 year old Cousins walk is different than 27 year old Darnold. Again, assuming Darnold sustains this level.
I agree it's different. Completely. Cousins had a more proven track record and Darnold is a lot younger.

They did budget a plan for bringing Cousins back. It was obviously a below market deal though, that they wanted him to accept. So I assume based on that, they'd offer Darnold a below market contract in hopes he'd stay. They didnt want to give Cousins a 3-4 yr deal. Again assuming keeps playing at a high level.

They also did spend that money. And it was well worth it imho. They'd have to rework deals if that money given to defenders was allocated for a vet qb.
I think Cousins said the money was right but other details weren't. Kirk wanted at least 3 years and 2 of them guaranteed. From an article I found:
a reason he decided to leave Minnesota is because the Vikings were very up front with the 35-year-old about the possibility that, even in the case he stayed, they’d take a quarterback of the future high in the draft. Tying that together with the team’s willingness to guarantee part, but not all, of a second year on another contract, Cousins figured that, if he stayed, there was a good shot that he’d be on the move in 2025.

I know Cousins appreciated how open the Vikings were about their draft strategy, even if it meant him leaving.
This comes back to the age difference. At 27, Darnold actually has a chance to be "The QB of the future" whereas 35-year-old Cousins definitely wasn't. If he has truly reinvented himself and keeps this up, Darnold could be QB for this team for the next 10 years.
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Re: The Brewing QB1 Controversy

Post by CharVike »

VikingLord wrote: Wed Oct 02, 2024 10:49 am Here's another question.

At what point during this season would the Vikings need to act on an extension if they decided they wanted to retain Darnold over the longer term? Or would it be better to not let that distract from an otherwise great season? Or maybe it would become an issue for Darnold if he's playing really well and the Vikings aren't starting those conversations? Or maybe they just tell Darnold they want to keep him and they'll start contract negotiations in earnest once the season wraps up?

Man, this is what is commonly called a good problem to have, but it is also a vexing problem because the Vikings did invest in McCarthy and McCarthy does look like he could be the real deal too. In his limited offseason work he reminded me of the QB version of Cris Carter - all he does is throw TD passes. So it's tough to be so "QB rich" all of a sudden after that position has been sort of a problem child for this team for so long.
I wouldn't do any negotiations until the season wraps up. You don't know what you even have until then. If KOC/staff feels Sammy is the long term guy he'll get signed or tagged once the season is over.
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Re: The Brewing QB1 Controversy

Post by VikingsVictorious »

I'm of the opinion that Darnold is nothing special and McCarthy will be far superior. Resigning Darnold cheap for one year is all I would do and that wouldn't get it done. We could tag him and trade him right? Their is no rule against that or is there? If we can get picks for him all the better.
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Re: The Brewing QB1 Controversy

Post by StpViking »

Ummm, I'm ummm, having ummm, fun ummm. Like superbowl ummm.
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Re: The Brewing QB1 Controversy

Post by cmoss84 »

VikingsVictorious wrote: Sun Oct 06, 2024 10:21 pm I'm of the opinion that Darnold is nothing special and McCarthy will be far superior. Resigning Darnold cheap for one year is all I would do and that wouldn't get it done. We could tag him and trade him right? Their is no rule against that or is there? If we can get picks for him all the better.
From NFL.com...

Non-exclusive franchise tag: The most commonly used tag. When most refer to the "franchise tag," they generally talk about the non-exclusive version. This is a one-year tender of the average of the top five salaries at the player's position over the last five years, or 120 percent of his previous salary, whichever is greater. The tagged player can negotiate with other teams, but his current team has the right to match any offer or receive two first-round draft picks as compensation if he signs with another club.

Sounds like the contract is guaranteed and he can be traded. But I am not certain. But the salary for a tagged QB is going to be REALLY high.
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Re: The Brewing QB1 Controversy

Post by J. Kapp 11 »

cmoss84 wrote: Tue Oct 08, 2024 5:33 pm
VikingsVictorious wrote: Sun Oct 06, 2024 10:21 pm I'm of the opinion that Darnold is nothing special and McCarthy will be far superior. Resigning Darnold cheap for one year is all I would do and that wouldn't get it done. We could tag him and trade him right? Their is no rule against that or is there? If we can get picks for him all the better.
From NFL.com...

Non-exclusive franchise tag: The most commonly used tag. When most refer to the "franchise tag," they generally talk about the non-exclusive version. This is a one-year tender of the average of the top five salaries at the player's position over the last five years, or 120 percent of his previous salary, whichever is greater. The tagged player can negotiate with other teams, but his current team has the right to match any offer or receive two first-round draft picks as compensation if he signs with another club.

Sounds like the contract is guaranteed and he can be traded. But I am not certain. But the salary for a tagged QB is going to be REALLY high.
The number I've heard batted around in the media is $42 million.
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Re: The Brewing QB1 Controversy

Post by J. Kapp 11 »

I'm going to take the copout route here.

I don't think this should even be a topic of discussion for the Vikings until the season is over.

Sam is playing great football right now, much better than even the most cockeyed optimist could've imagined. Until this past week, a lot of pundits were putting him in the MVP conversation. But just as mentioning someone as an MVP candidate based on four games is premature, so too is talk of extending Darnold. Anything could happen between now and February. He could hoist the Vikings' first Lombardi trophy — if that happens, I'll jump right on that "Extend Him" bandwagon. But he could also get injured. He could regress. The Vikings could pull a 2016 and finish 8-9. They could win the division and go one-and-done. And you'd be hard-pressed to convince me one of those scenarios is significantly more likely than any other. I'm not willing to take a $200 million risk (or whatever it would cost).

Meanwhile, you just spent a lot of draft capital on JJ McCarthy, who has a chance to be a pretty darned good quarterback himself. What do you do with JJ if you extend Sam now?

Also, the Vikings finally, FINALLY will not be in cap hell next year. Current projection is $76 million under the cap. I'm in no hurry to eat up $30 or $40 million of that.

Yeah, we can talk about it here, and they're talking about it in the media. But I don't believe there's a chance in hell that the Vikings extend Sam Darnold before the season ends. If Sam is MVP, and the season ends, and he walks, I can actually live with that. Why? Because if Sam Darnold is the MVP, there's a good chance we're playing in our first Super Bowl since 1977.

And so ... I cop out.
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Re: The Brewing QB1 Controversy

Post by cmoss84 »

49s are NFC's best team because Purdy makes/made nothing. They have play makers everywhere on both sides of the ball. Purdy is about to get PAID and I see them dropping off a bit.

IF JJMAC can live up to the hype...we could follow their blueprint for a few years while he is cheap.
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Re: The Brewing QB1 Controversy

Post by Deepchicago »

Been a long time since I've posted and logged in. Congrats to the Vikes for your success. You apparently have a really good head coach.

In regards to this pickle you're in at QB, me thinks you should ride the hot hand for as long as you can. Look how long Rodgers and Love sat before playing. JJ was always a work in progress. If Darnold found his groove and things are still clicking, then franchise his #### another year and prove it all over again. These are good problems to have.

I know it's only five games, but you have a QUARTERBACK.

Take it from a Bears fan.
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Re: The Brewing QB1 Controversy

Post by CharVike »

StpViking wrote: Tue Oct 08, 2024 4:26 pm Ummm, I'm ummm, having ummm, fun ummm. Like superbowl ummm.
I just noticed this from his last presser. The ummm seems to be a think start. That should control putting the foot in the mouth. Plus he can just regurgitate the same old stuff. Better than Zim saying what do you want me to do cut him? That was after Peg did his usual block right on a chip shot FG attempt to keep the loss safe.
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Re: The Brewing QB1 Controversy

Post by VikingLord »

After watching Darnold's latest performance against the Lions, I'm going to call it right now and predict there will NOT be a future QB controversy and that, when this season ends somewhat unceremoniously with a .500 or so record, the Vikings will at best offer to bring Darnold back as McCarthy's backup next season. I say this because it seems pretty obvious that Darnold is not playing the position at a high level. He may have started out on fire (which he's done before with his previous teams), but he seems incapable of maintaining it and again yesterday we saw numerous examples of him missing obvious and fairly easy throws while at the same time making yet another equally obvious and glaring error. The first obvious miss that I saw was when he took off scrambling for what appeared to be a very nice 19 yard pickup. However, the downfield replay of that scramble showed that had Darnold simply stepped up in the pocket and looked straight ahead, Nailor was wide open down the middle for an easy TD. And by easy, I mean E-A-S-Y, as he had clean separation and multiple steps. Darnold just "Dobbed" it and took off. Second obvious miss was on the INT to Branch. Jones was running a sideline route and was as wide open as anyone can get. It would have been an easy pitch-and-catch for a first down to keep the chains moving. But Darnold never looked that way, instead locking on to Addison who never was open. And even worse, Branch was right there. Darnold credited Branch with making a nice play on the ball in the post game pressure. Dude, you threw it right to him! He didn't have to do anything, and this isn't the first time I've seen Darnold make the same kind of throw.

Whatever poise and pocket presence Darnold had to start the year is gone. He's jumpy, impatient, is missing throws and failing to see receivers coming open. Early in the year he was hitting some deep balls and putting a lot of scoring pressure on opposing teams. Now, we're lucky if we see one ball go downfield per game. And it's really hurting the offense.

So I think it is safe to say that the Vikings at least will be saved from any difficult decisions at QB1 heading into next season. It's going to be JMac or bust.
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Re: The Brewing QB1 Controversy

Post by Cliff »

VikingLord wrote: Mon Oct 21, 2024 9:29 am After watching Darnold's latest performance against the Lions, I'm going to call it right now and predict there will NOT be a future QB controversy and that, when this season ends somewhat unceremoniously with a .500 or so record, the Vikings will at best offer to bring Darnold back as McCarthy's backup next season. I say this because it seems pretty obvious that Darnold is not playing the position at a high level. He may have started out on fire (which he's done before with his previous teams), but he seems incapable of maintaining it and again yesterday we saw numerous examples of him missing obvious and fairly easy throws while at the same time making yet another equally obvious and glaring error. The first obvious miss that I saw was when he took off scrambling for what appeared to be a very nice 19 yard pickup. However, the downfield replay of that scramble showed that had Darnold simply stepped up in the pocket and looked straight ahead, Nailor was wide open down the middle for an easy TD. And by easy, I mean E-A-S-Y, as he had clean separation and multiple steps. Darnold just "Dobbed" it and took off. Second obvious miss was on the INT to Branch. Jones was running a sideline route and was as wide open as anyone can get. It would have been an easy pitch-and-catch for a first down to keep the chains moving. But Darnold never looked that way, instead locking on to Addison who never was open. And even worse, Branch was right there. Darnold credited Branch with making a nice play on the ball in the post game pressure. Dude, you threw it right to him! He didn't have to do anything, and this isn't the first time I've seen Darnold make the same kind of throw.

Whatever poise and pocket presence Darnold had to start the year is gone. He's jumpy, impatient, is missing throws and failing to see receivers coming open. Early in the year he was hitting some deep balls and putting a lot of scoring pressure on opposing teams. Now, we're lucky if we see one ball go downfield per game. And it's really hurting the offense.

So I think it is safe to say that the Vikings at least will be saved from any difficult decisions at QB1 heading into next season. It's going to be JMac or bust.
I'm not sure we watched the same game. Darnold completed 81.5% of his passes for 259 yards, 1/1 td/int, a 103.5 passer rating, and 40 yards on the ground. After 7 games he is 7th in passer rating even after the Jets game. The Jets, by the way, have 3 of the top 15 CBs in the league.

He didn't seem jumpy at all to me. The play on the ball for the INT was a good play by a very good player.

He wasn't perfect, but his play was more than good enough to win the game if the defense held up. The defense gave up 4 TDs on 4 consecutive drives. They're lucky the game was as close as it was.
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Re: The Brewing QB1 Controversy

Post by makila »

I was more annoyed with Nailor not catching balls he should have.
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Re: The Brewing QB1 Controversy

Post by VikingLord »

Cliff wrote: Mon Oct 21, 2024 10:02 am I'm not sure we watched the same game. Darnold completed 81.5% of his passes for 259 yards, 1/1 td/int, a 103.5 passer rating, and 40 yards on the ground. After 7 games he is 7th in passer rating even after the Jets game. The Jets, by the way, have 3 of the top 15 CBs in the league.

He didn't seem jumpy at all to me. The play on the ball for the INT was a good play by a very good player.

He wasn't perfect, but his play was more than good enough to win the game if the defense held up. The defense gave up 4 TDs on 4 consecutive drives. They're lucky the game was as close as it was.
Give it time and I think you'll see it too, but if you can watch the downfield replay on Darnold's big scramble. That's 7 points left on the field. Darnold tucked and ran. A better QB keeps his eyes downfield, moves up in the pocket (which he obviously could do because he took off for his big gainer), and hits Nailor.

As for the Branch INT, if you think that was a great play by Branch and not a piss poor decision and throw by Darnold, we'll have to agree to disagree on that one, but that ended a drive which had a good chance of putting more points on the board.

I do agree with you on the defense being crap yesterday. Lions manhandled them for the better half of the mid-game. What bothers me the most about that is how the Vikings DBs don't stick to receivers when Flores sends extra guys. The long TD pass by Goff off a blitz was just embarrassing - like, whose guy is that? Yeah, with tight man there are risks, sure, but you're taking a risk already by blitzing. Why not double down and try to take advantage of an errant throw or two if the blitz gets home? But no, Flores sits back in some zone and quality QBs beat it. Seriously reminded me of Ed Donatell's defense at times. Maybe Flores doesn't trust his DBs in man? Going to be a long season if that's the case - teams are figuring out how to negate the blitz packages.