Five straight road games? WTF

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halfgiz
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Re: Five straight road games? WTF

Post by halfgiz »

One of the things I read was that KOC has a plan for JJ. Different steps or things he has to accomplish before they consider letting him start.
Could all go by the wayside with an injury, but it appears they have a plan in place.
Also hope they have the problems with the guards worked out by then.
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Re: Five straight road games? WTF

Post by J. Kapp 11 »

VikingsVictorious wrote: Mon May 20, 2024 11:27 am
Maelstrom88 wrote: Sat May 18, 2024 9:22 am

I always lean towards letting rookies have a redshirt year to acclimate themselves. Unfortunately the reality of the league is you usually need to rush them out there. If we are out of the playoff race by December I'd want JJ to get his feet wet then but I'm pulling for Darnold to take the job and run with it. If we are smart we will then tag and trade him for picks next year.
Logical Proof
A If JJ is better than Darnold he will play.
B Darnold is not good
Conclusion if JJ doesn't play that is extremely bad news.

You can disagree with my premises if you want.
Or …

C The Vikings organization takes its cue from the Packers and Chiefs and gives the rookie a year or more to learn and develop … as a matter of philosophy, nothing else.

Worked for those teams.
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Re: Five straight road games? WTF

Post by VikingsVictorious »

J. Kapp 11 wrote: Thu Jun 06, 2024 9:54 am
VikingsVictorious wrote: Mon May 20, 2024 11:27 am
Logical Proof
A If JJ is better than Darnold he will play.
B Darnold is not good
Conclusion if JJ doesn't play that is extremely bad news.

You can disagree with my premises if you want.
Or …

C The Vikings organization takes its cue from the Packers and Chiefs and gives the rookie a year or more to learn and develop … as a matter of philosophy, nothing else.

Worked for those teams.
Just because it happened to work out doesn't mean it's a good philosophy. Rodgers backing up Brett Favre. Duh. Love was not going to start over Rodgers. Duh.
Alex Smith was a good not great QB. Odds are the Chiefs would have done better starting Mahomes year one. We will never know.
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Re: Five straight road games? WTF

Post by Tommy TarkenKapp »

VikingsVictorious wrote: Thu Jun 06, 2024 5:23 pm
J. Kapp 11 wrote: Thu Jun 06, 2024 9:54 am
Or …

C The Vikings organization takes its cue from the Packers and Chiefs and gives the rookie a year or more to learn and develop … as a matter of philosophy, nothing else.

Worked for those teams.
Just because it happened to work out doesn't mean it's a good philosophy. Rodgers backing up Brett Favre. Duh. Love was not going to start over Rodgers. Duh.
Alex Smith was a good not great QB. Odds are the Chiefs would have done better starting Mahomes year one. We will never know.
It doesn't make it a bad philosophy either. It's just a philosophy. There's plenty of valid philosophies to subscribe to. Some rookie QBs are ready out of the gate. Although that isn't the norm. Some need to be brought along a little more slowly. Not all circumstances are the same. For now...I'm good with however KOC decides to go with the new QB situation.

I won't dismiss Darnold as a potential solid starter. Not yet anyhow. I know Darnold's career hasn't been good thus far. But, I also know he played for two teams (Jets & Panthers) that were absolute dumpster fires. Hell, Cousins knew enough to stay away from the Jets even after they offered him more money than the Vikings. I'd say it might be considered "logical proof" that Kirk would have never saw another big payday had he chosen the Jets over the Vikings in 2018.
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Re: Five straight road games? WTF

Post by CharVike »

Tommy TarkenKapp wrote: Thu Jun 06, 2024 7:42 pm
VikingsVictorious wrote: Thu Jun 06, 2024 5:23 pm
Just because it happened to work out doesn't mean it's a good philosophy. Rodgers backing up Brett Favre. Duh. Love was not going to start over Rodgers. Duh.
Alex Smith was a good not great QB. Odds are the Chiefs would have done better starting Mahomes year one. We will never know.
It doesn't make it a bad philosophy either. It's just a philosophy. There's plenty of valid philosophies to subscribe to. Some rookie QBs are ready out of the gate. Although that isn't the norm. Some need to be brought along a little more slowly. Not all circumstances are the same. For now...I'm good with however KOC decides to go with the new QB situation.

I won't dismiss Darnold as a potential solid starter. Not yet anyhow. I know Darnold's career hasn't been good thus far. But, I also know he played for two teams (Jets & Panthers) that were absolute dumpster fires. Hell, Cousins knew enough to stay away from the Jets even after they offered him more money than the Vikings. I'd say it might be considered "logical proof" that Kirk would have never saw another big payday had he chosen the Jets over the Vikings in 2018.
All of you bring up very solid points. But Darnold has terrible accuracy and anticipation. When he goes bad it's over. Yes he was the 3rd overall pick but so was Trey Lance. That means nothing. Can KOC make him better? Based on KOC's history I doubt it. For any young QB to succeed they need a solid organization who can build a solid all around roster and a coaching staff that can develop young players and create a scheme that they fit. Without those 2 forget the philosophy. It won't matter.
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Re: Five straight road games? WTF

Post by Tommy TarkenKapp »

CharVike wrote: Thu Jun 06, 2024 9:42 pm
Tommy TarkenKapp wrote: Thu Jun 06, 2024 7:42 pm

It doesn't make it a bad philosophy either. It's just a philosophy. There's plenty of valid philosophies to subscribe to. Some rookie QBs are ready out of the gate. Although that isn't the norm. Some need to be brought along a little more slowly. Not all circumstances are the same. For now...I'm good with however KOC decides to go with the new QB situation.

I won't dismiss Darnold as a potential solid starter. Not yet anyhow. I know Darnold's career hasn't been good thus far. But, I also know he played for two teams (Jets & Panthers) that were absolute dumpster fires. Hell, Cousins knew enough to stay away from the Jets even after they offered him more money than the Vikings. I'd say it might be considered "logical proof" that Kirk would have never saw another big payday had he chosen the Jets over the Vikings in 2018.
All of you bring up very solid points. But Darnold has terrible accuracy and anticipation. When he goes bad it's over. Yes he was the 3rd overall pick but so was Trey Lance. That means nothing. Can KOC make him better? Based on KOC's history I doubt it. For any young QB to succeed they need a solid organization who can build a solid all around roster and a coaching staff that can develop young players and create a scheme that they fit. Without those 2 forget the philosophy. It won't matter.
I kinda feel like folks already have their minds made up that Darnold is going to fail here if given the opportunity to start. And based on his previous body of work...him failing is probably the safe bet. But, there have been instances of QBs who sucked early in their careers & became quite good later on with a new team. Steve Young, Vinny Testaverde, Rich Gannon.

The odds aren't in Darnold's favor. But, it can happen. None of these conversations will matter if he gets beat out by McCarthy. Correction. None of these conversations will matter regardless. Hell, this is the cyber equivalent of a sports bar. And we're the know it all fans that think our opinions are 100% correct. Hey, bartender...another shot of Yukon Jack & a Lager, please.
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Re: Five straight road games? WTF

Post by CharVike »

Tommy TarkenKapp wrote: Fri Jun 07, 2024 5:39 am
CharVike wrote: Thu Jun 06, 2024 9:42 pm
All of you bring up very solid points. But Darnold has terrible accuracy and anticipation. When he goes bad it's over. Yes he was the 3rd overall pick but so was Trey Lance. That means nothing. Can KOC make him better? Based on KOC's history I doubt it. For any young QB to succeed they need a solid organization who can build a solid all around roster and a coaching staff that can develop young players and create a scheme that they fit. Without those 2 forget the philosophy. It won't matter.
I kinda feel like folks already have their minds made up that Darnold is going to fail here if given the opportunity to start. And based on his previous body of work...him failing is probably the safe bet. But, there have been instances of QBs who sucked early in their careers & became quite good later on with a new team. Steve Young, Vinny Testaverde, Rich Gannon.

The odds aren't in Darnold's favor. But, it can happen. None of these conversations will matter if he gets beat out by McCarthy. Correction. None of these conversations will matter regardless. Hell, this is the cyber equivalent of a sports bar. And we're the know it all fans that think our opinions are 100% correct. Hey, bartender...another shot of Yukon Jack & a Lager, please.
Guys have come out of nowhere which is true. K Warner from the grocery store to SB winner in year 2 with the Rams. He sucked again with the Giants and then took another team to the SB. My opinion is "team" is the most important. You can't have garbage points on your team. Our team gets a great opportunity week 1 against the Giants who suck and are badly coached. If we allow Dexter Lawerance to take over the LOS again it will be a long day for both Darnold and Jones. I've seen that act before. We need to kick his #### and drive him off the point. Open holes and don't allow him to split the gap or push people into the backfield on his pass rush. Sammy might not throw the same once his chest and ribs are pushed in. He'll start flinching.
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Re: Five straight road games? WTF

Post by Cliff »

Tommy TarkenKapp wrote: Fri Jun 07, 2024 5:39 am
CharVike wrote: Thu Jun 06, 2024 9:42 pm
All of you bring up very solid points. But Darnold has terrible accuracy and anticipation. When he goes bad it's over. Yes he was the 3rd overall pick but so was Trey Lance. That means nothing. Can KOC make him better? Based on KOC's history I doubt it. For any young QB to succeed they need a solid organization who can build a solid all around roster and a coaching staff that can develop young players and create a scheme that they fit. Without those 2 forget the philosophy. It won't matter.
I kinda feel like folks already have their minds made up that Darnold is going to fail here if given the opportunity to start. And based on his previous body of work...him failing is probably the safe bet. But, there have been instances of QBs who sucked early in their careers & became quite good later on with a new team. Steve Young, Vinny Testaverde, Rich Gannon.

The odds aren't in Darnold's favor. But, it can happen. None of these conversations will matter if he gets beat out by McCarthy. Correction. None of these conversations will matter regardless. Hell, this is the cyber equivalent of a sports bar. And we're the know it all fans that think our opinions are 100% correct. Hey, bartender...another shot of Yukon Jack & a Lager, please.
Darnold's #1 & #2 receiver every season:

2018: Robbie Chosen, Quincy Enunwa
2019: Robbie Chosen, Jamison Crowder
2020: Jamison Crowder, Denzel Mims
2021: D.J. Moore (finally a decent receiver, got over 1k yards that year) - Darnold plays 11 games, Robbie Chosen (Now in Carolina ... )
2022: (Darnold plays only 6 games) D.J. Moore, Shi Smith.

When people say "He's never had a receiving group like he has now" I don't think they understand just how bad his options were and how little time he had playing with DJ Moore, the only decent receiver in 5 years.

I'm not saying he's going to be great, but I am saying this is his first legit chance to prove what he can do.
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Re: Five straight road games? WTF

Post by Cliff »

CharVike wrote: Fri Jun 07, 2024 9:09 am
Tommy TarkenKapp wrote: Fri Jun 07, 2024 5:39 am

I kinda feel like folks already have their minds made up that Darnold is going to fail here if given the opportunity to start. And based on his previous body of work...him failing is probably the safe bet. But, there have been instances of QBs who sucked early in their careers & became quite good later on with a new team. Steve Young, Vinny Testaverde, Rich Gannon.

The odds aren't in Darnold's favor. But, it can happen. None of these conversations will matter if he gets beat out by McCarthy. Correction. None of these conversations will matter regardless. Hell, this is the cyber equivalent of a sports bar. And we're the know it all fans that think our opinions are 100% correct. Hey, bartender...another shot of Yukon Jack & a Lager, please.
Guys have come out of nowhere which is true. K Warner from the grocery store to SB winner in year 2 with the Rams. He sucked again with the Giants and then took another team to the SB. My opinion is "team" is the most important. You can't have garbage points on your team. Our team gets a great opportunity week 1 against the Giants who suck and are badly coached. If we allow Dexter Lawerance to take over the LOS again it will be a long day for both Darnold and Jones. I've seen that act before. We need to kick his #### and drive him off the point. Open holes and don't allow him to split the gap or push people into the backfield on his pass rush. Sammy might not throw the same once his chest and ribs are pushed in. He'll start flinching.
Team yes, but when it comes to the QB position weapons are also needed.

Kurt Warner looks great with Isaac Bruce, Torry Holt, and Marshall Faulk and then again with Larry Fitzgerald and Anquan Boldin ... but not with Ike Hilliard and a 30 year old Amari Toomer who never made it back to 700 yards after that season. If Kurt Warner had spent his first 4 seasons throwing to Darnold's receivers you'd be saying "Kurt Who"?
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Re: Five straight road games? WTF

Post by Tommy TarkenKapp »

Cliff wrote: Fri Jun 07, 2024 9:52 am
Tommy TarkenKapp wrote: Fri Jun 07, 2024 5:39 am

I kinda feel like folks already have their minds made up that Darnold is going to fail here if given the opportunity to start. And based on his previous body of work...him failing is probably the safe bet. But, there have been instances of QBs who sucked early in their careers & became quite good later on with a new team. Steve Young, Vinny Testaverde, Rich Gannon.

The odds aren't in Darnold's favor. But, it can happen. None of these conversations will matter if he gets beat out by McCarthy. Correction. None of these conversations will matter regardless. Hell, this is the cyber equivalent of a sports bar. And we're the know it all fans that think our opinions are 100% correct. Hey, bartender...another shot of Yukon Jack & a Lager, please.
Darnold's #1 & #2 receiver every season:

2018: Robbie Chosen, Quincy Enunwa
2019: Robbie Chosen, Jamison Crowder
2020: Jamison Crowder, Denzel Mims
2021: D.J. Moore (finally a decent receiver, got over 1k yards that year) - Darnold plays 11 games, Robbie Chosen (Now in Carolina ... )
2022: (Darnold plays only 6 games) D.J. Moore, Shi Smith.

When people say "He's never had a receiving group like he has now" I don't think they understand just how bad his options were and how little time he had playing with DJ Moore, the only decent receiver in 5 years.

I'm not saying he's going to be great, but I am saying this is his first legit chance to prove what he can do.
I spent some time on Pro Football Reference after we signed Darnold. When I saw what skill players he had to work with...I was practically dumbfounded. That's why I referenced Kirk Cousins declining the Jets offer & taking less money from the Vikings to play with Thielen, Diggs, Rudolph & Cook. That decision was a no brainer.
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Re: Five straight road games? WTF

Post by cmoss84 »

Those are some rough WRs to work with!

Sam will love playing with a USC alum WR...can't wait to see how they're connection unfolds!
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Re: Five straight road games? WTF

Post by VikingsVictorious »

Tommy TarkenKapp wrote: Thu Jun 06, 2024 7:42 pm
VikingsVictorious wrote: Thu Jun 06, 2024 5:23 pm
Just because it happened to work out doesn't mean it's a good philosophy. Rodgers backing up Brett Favre. Duh. Love was not going to start over Rodgers. Duh.
Alex Smith was a good not great QB. Odds are the Chiefs would have done better starting Mahomes year one. We will never know.
It doesn't make it a bad philosophy either. It's just a philosophy. There's plenty of valid philosophies to subscribe to. Some rookie QBs are ready out of the gate. Although that isn't the norm. Some need to be brought along a little more slowly. Not all circumstances are the same. For now...I'm good with however KOC decides to go with the new QB situation.

I won't dismiss Darnold as a potential solid starter. Not yet anyhow. I know Darnold's career hasn't been good thus far. But, I also know he played for two teams (Jets & Panthers) that were absolute dumpster fires. Hell, Cousins knew enough to stay away from the Jets even after they offered him more money than the Vikings. I'd say it might be considered "logical proof" that Kirk would have never saw another big payday had he chosen the Jets over the Vikings in 2018.
Good points.
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Re: Five straight road games? WTF

Post by VikingLord »

Sam Darnold is playing on a one year deal. I suppose he could experience a career renaissance but it's highly unlikely even with a better supporting cast.

Personally, I hope McCarthy wins the job outright and we never look back. Darnold can be a good backup option that hopefully we never need to see except maybe during garbage time when the Vikes have a 3 TD lead because McCarthy tore up yet another defense.
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Re: Five straight road games? WTF

Post by VikingsVictorious »

CharVike wrote: Thu Jun 06, 2024 9:42 pm
Tommy TarkenKapp wrote: Thu Jun 06, 2024 7:42 pm

It doesn't make it a bad philosophy either. It's just a philosophy. There's plenty of valid philosophies to subscribe to. Some rookie QBs are ready out of the gate. Although that isn't the norm. Some need to be brought along a little more slowly. Not all circumstances are the same. For now...I'm good with however KOC decides to go with the new QB situation.

I won't dismiss Darnold as a potential solid starter. Not yet anyhow. I know Darnold's career hasn't been good thus far. But, I also know he played for two teams (Jets & Panthers) that were absolute dumpster fires. Hell, Cousins knew enough to stay away from the Jets even after they offered him more money than the Vikings. I'd say it might be considered "logical proof" that Kirk would have never saw another big payday had he chosen the Jets over the Vikings in 2018.
All of you bring up very solid points. But Darnold has terrible accuracy and anticipation. When he goes bad it's over. Yes he was the 3rd overall pick but so was Trey Lance. That means nothing. Can KOC make him better? Based on KOC's history I doubt it. For any young QB to succeed they need a solid organization who can build a solid all around roster and a coaching staff that can develop young players and create a scheme that they fit. Without those 2 forget the philosophy. It won't matter.
Good points.
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Re: Five straight road games? WTF

Post by VikingsVictorious »

Tommy TarkenKapp wrote: Fri Jun 07, 2024 10:31 am
Cliff wrote: Fri Jun 07, 2024 9:52 am

Darnold's #1 & #2 receiver every season:

2018: Robbie Chosen, Quincy Enunwa
2019: Robbie Chosen, Jamison Crowder
2020: Jamison Crowder, Denzel Mims
2021: D.J. Moore (finally a decent receiver, got over 1k yards that year) - Darnold plays 11 games, Robbie Chosen (Now in Carolina ... )
2022: (Darnold plays only 6 games) D.J. Moore, Shi Smith.

When people say "He's never had a receiving group like he has now" I don't think they understand just how bad his options were and how little time he had playing with DJ Moore, the only decent receiver in 5 years.

I'm not saying he's going to be great, but I am saying this is his first legit chance to prove what he can do.
I spent some time on Pro Football Reference after we signed Darnold. When I saw what skill players he had to work with...I was practically dumbfounded. That's why I referenced Kirk Cousins declining the Jets offer & taking less money from the Vikings to play with Thielen, Diggs, Rudolph & Cook. That decision was a no brainer.
Good points.