Latest on Kirk’s decision to leave Minnesota

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CharVike
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Re: Latest on Kirk’s decision to leave Minnesota

Post by CharVike »

Tommy TarkenKapp wrote: Wed May 15, 2024 9:07 am
CharVike wrote: Wed May 15, 2024 8:19 am
Zim's defense always thrived on the mediocre and bottom feeder teams. That's one reason why he won many games. That game against the Lions when we sacked Stafford 10 times and beat him to a pulp is a great example. That was the good old Lions. Now they have one of the top OLs so it's a different story. That 49er playoff game when they pounded the rock for 186 yards was another joke. Dominated at the point. How is it even possible to give up that many yards rushing for a playoff team? They folded. The game that defined Zim's HC career for me was his first playoff loss 10-9 to the Hawks. It was brutal weather conditions which eliminated much of the offense. Teddy drove us down the field for the GW FG attempt and of course Walsh hooked a 22 yarder for the miss. It's not true but I think every loss was on a miss FG attempt under Zim. That was his early 70s style of football. The O only has 2 jobs. Burn the clock and get into FG range. That's why he always liked having a stiff at QB. Made his D look more important. He forgot the dominate J Tucker type of kicker to make his vision work.
I agree with everything you stated. However, there is one thing I've never understood. Many fans (I don't mean you) have romanticized that ill-fated, final FG attempt against Seattle in the playoffs as if Teddy orchestrated an epic, legendary drive. In truth, he didn't do anything clutch what-so-ever. The drive started at the Vikings' own 39 yard line. Rudolph drew a pass interference call that put the ball in Seahawks territory. And then Teddy completed a simple 9 yard pass to Rudolph. Rudolph broke the tackle & ran down the sideline to get the ball inside the 20 yard line. Then it was three straight Peterson runs & Walsh's missed FG. I just find it interesting that WE as fans feel the need to over dramatize. It's just funny is all. I blame those damn NFL Game Of The Week films they used to run from the 60's through the mid way point of the 80's. I love those films.
I was never a Teddy fan. He never could orchestrate anything. The 1st time I saw him I was like this skinny kid will get broke in half. Plus that pop gun arm gave him no chance. My 1st thought was another joke pick. But Zim loved that type of QB. Hand off all day and throw some dump offs. That's all in the past. A new day is here. Hopefully the newest and greatest LG we have inserted can block somebody. I have my doubts. If he can't the road will be much tougher for whoever is behind center. Tuck, move, regroup and throw. Not how you draw it up. Throws KOC passing fundamentals out of wack. Especially the timing and rhythm part.
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Re: Latest on Kirk’s decision to leave Minnesota

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CharVike wrote: Wed May 15, 2024 11:33 am
Cliff wrote: Wed May 15, 2024 9:30 am

Zimmer took Leslie Fraiser's last place defense and improved it to a top 5 defense until Kirk's contract started coming home to roost in 2019/2020 and the talent on the defense thinned out. Don't get me wrong, I don't think Zimmer-brand football is going to win any Super Bowls but he was consistently fielding highly rated defenses. Sustaining a good defense over 5 or 6 years isn't just beating the bad teams.

To me the problem with Zimmer's defenses are the same we'll have with Flores. All of that crowding the LOS is great as far as keeping the offense guessing what kind of play you're running, but you're constantly forcing guys to drop back into mid-to-deep coverage from there and it's tiring over the course of a game. Zimmer had a lot of 4th quarter collapses and I think that's why.
Our drafting didn't help keep the defense either. I don't think we have replaced Rhodes to this day. Griffens problems in 2018 didn't help either. Zimmer had his success and he's back with the Cowboys. That season success didn't carry over into the post season. But his HC career went on too long here. Once Cousins arrived it caused problems. His playing strengths didn't match up well with Zim's vision. Most of our OC's vision didn't match Zim until he dug up Kube. It was the OC flip every year. Once twice. QB contracts or any bigger contracts only hurt if you can't draft well. Ravens pay Lamar a ton but they can draft well which keeps the team strong. The Chiefs do the same thing. IMO if our current GM/HC don't have this team playing great in year 4 then they need to go. No sense in keep going down a dead end road again.
Yeah but that's the risk you run when you have 1 or 2 really high priced players on the team. You really have to nail the drafts and there are no guarantees for that no matter how good a GM is. Rookies get injuries they never recover from, some just don't pan out regardless of pedigree. A lot of it for Zimmer was bad luck. The QB that he hand-picked and loved as a human had a massive knee failure the season before his team was ready to make a run for the super bowl. I don't know if Teddy would have made a difference but at least we would have fully known what Zimmer was capable of to his fullest extent. Losing your QB of the future is a blow.

The OC flipping wouldn't have been an issue if he actually had a plan for the offense but he made it clear, as early as his interview, that he didn't have a solid plan for the offense. He was going to let whoever the OC was run the show and that lack of an overall offensive plan on his part led to offensive changes that were drastically different from one season to the next. Meanwhile, because he had an actual plan that was cohesive from one year to the next on defense, regardless of DC, the team generally did well on that side of the ball. It was easier to identify the kind of players needed from one year to the next, etc.

Zim predicted his own fate with Cousins. He specifically said if they throw a bunch of money at QB that the defense would suffer and he'd be fired in a season or two. They did it anyway. It had to be hard watching the team do something you specifically advised against cost you your job. I'm guessing he wouldn't have necessarily fared much better if Cousins hadn't come on but at least the team would have been built around his coaching philosophies.

I agree about the team playing great by year 4 but that's why Zimmer lasted as long as he did. His 4th year as HC was 2017. Getting to the NFCC was definitely playing great in year 4, despite getting spanked by the eventual super bowl champs.
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Re: Latest on Kirk’s decision to leave Minnesota

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VikingLord wrote: Wed May 15, 2024 11:59 am

I do think Penix competes for that starting job down there. I think odds are at least 50-50 he wins it.
Penix isn't winning any QB job in the NFL. He couldn't beat out the kid built like Barney Fife in Carolina.
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Re: Latest on Kirk’s decision to leave Minnesota

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VikingLord wrote: Wed May 15, 2024 11:59 am
Tommy TarkenKapp wrote: Wed May 15, 2024 8:03 am I can't fault the Falcons for being prepared for the future.
I can because I don't think it is clear that is what the Falcons were doing when they drafted Penix with the 8th pick. Normally teams use a high first round pick on players they intend to compete for a starting job. The Falcons spent a cool $100 million in guaranteed money on 4 year deal for Cousins. Most rookie deals are 4 years with a 5th year option, so based on that, if the Falcons didn't draft Penix with the intent for him to compete to win the starting QB job, at best they spent the 8th pick in the draft to increase depth at the QB position. And that doesn't even count Penix's age entering the NFL. The guy played college ball for 6 years. By the time his rookie deal expires he'll be at least 28 years old.

The Falcons seem to me to be acknowledging they are not confident in Cousins, or at least not confident enough to pass up the chance to draft someone they hope will be better. Penix will compete with Cousins for that starting job down there no matter what he, Penix or the Falcons say about it. I wouldn't be surprised at all to see Penix win it, too.
Tommy TarkenKapp wrote: Wed May 15, 2024 8:03 am But, I can fault the Falcons for hastily overpaying a 36 year old QB coming off an Achilles tear before doing their due diligence on picking a QB at #8. Was there really that big of a market for Cousins that they had to sign him within the first 30 minutes of free agency? Who was their competition for Kirk? The Vikings? I think it was pretty clear the Vikings were willing to move on from Kirk unless they got him on a team friendly deal. The Vikings showed patience. The Falcons treated it like the "Buy It Now" option on eBay. You have to wonder if they might end up with buyer's remorse somewhere down the line?
The Falcons strike me as a very poorly run football team right now. The move to sign Cousins by itself was pretty questionable. The move to then draft a QB with the 8th pick when the team is in dire straights on the defensive side of the ball is even more questionable unless they weren't confident in the vet QB.

And that doesn't even take into account the fact that both Cousins and Penix now have worrisome injury histories tagging along with each of them. At least Cousins made it into his mid-30's before he suffered his first major injury. Penix has already had multiple severe injuries which contributed in part to his extended time playing college ball. The Falcons have yoked themselves to both.

I do think Penix competes for that starting job down there. I think odds are at least 50-50 he wins it.
I would be shocked out of my mind if Penix can outplay Kirk for the starting job. However, there's no guarantee that Kirk will be fully rehabbed come week one so Penix may get a chance to start the season.
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Re: Latest on Kirk’s decision to leave Minnesota

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VikingsVictorious wrote: Wed May 15, 2024 1:13 pm
VikingLord wrote: Wed May 15, 2024 11:59 am

I can because I don't think it is clear that is what the Falcons were doing when they drafted Penix with the 8th pick. Normally teams use a high first round pick on players they intend to compete for a starting job. The Falcons spent a cool $100 million in guaranteed money on 4 year deal for Cousins. Most rookie deals are 4 years with a 5th year option, so based on that, if the Falcons didn't draft Penix with the intent for him to compete to win the starting QB job, at best they spent the 8th pick in the draft to increase depth at the QB position. And that doesn't even count Penix's age entering the NFL. The guy played college ball for 6 years. By the time his rookie deal expires he'll be at least 28 years old.

The Falcons seem to me to be acknowledging they are not confident in Cousins, or at least not confident enough to pass up the chance to draft someone they hope will be better. Penix will compete with Cousins for that starting job down there no matter what he, Penix or the Falcons say about it. I wouldn't be surprised at all to see Penix win it, too.



The Falcons strike me as a very poorly run football team right now. The move to sign Cousins by itself was pretty questionable. The move to then draft a QB with the 8th pick when the team is in dire straights on the defensive side of the ball is even more questionable unless they weren't confident in the vet QB.

And that doesn't even take into account the fact that both Cousins and Penix now have worrisome injury histories tagging along with each of them. At least Cousins made it into his mid-30's before he suffered his first major injury. Penix has already had multiple severe injuries which contributed in part to his extended time playing college ball. The Falcons have yoked themselves to both.

I do think Penix competes for that starting job down there. I think odds are at least 50-50 he wins it.
I would be shocked out of my mind if Penix can outplay Kirk for the starting job. However, there's no guarantee that Kirk will be fully rehabbed come week one so Penix may get a chance to start the season.
Kirk will be fine when the season starts. His is the right leg which is his push off side. I'm sure the Falcons made sure he can still throw a football before offering a contract. I would assume Cousins also had a physical evaluation at some point within those 30 minutes. That was a joke. This has been going on for a long time and perhaps when we told him no thanks to the previous deal offered a few years ago. Kirk has been through the NFL BS before. This isn't his first rodeo. Players heal quickly from these injuries that at one time it was career over. Purdy looked like he was never hurt. Penix isn't even in the competition because there isn't one. His job is to get ready to play as quickly as possible. That will start with understanding coverage, rush packages and how that will impact his progressions. If he even done progressions in college. I'm sure the Falcons are different. If he was a one look and shoot then he's way off.
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Re: Latest on Kirk’s decision to leave Minnesota

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CharVike wrote: Wed May 15, 2024 10:16 pm
VikingsVictorious wrote: Wed May 15, 2024 1:13 pm
I would be shocked out of my mind if Penix can outplay Kirk for the starting job. However, there's no guarantee that Kirk will be fully rehabbed come week one so Penix may get a chance to start the season.
Kirk will be fine when the season starts. His is the right leg which is his push off side. I'm sure the Falcons made sure he can still throw a football before offering a contract. I would assume Cousins also had a physical evaluation at some point within those 30 minutes. That was a joke. This has been going on for a long time and perhaps when we told him no thanks to the previous deal offered a few years ago. Kirk has been through the NFL BS before. This isn't his first rodeo. Players heal quickly from these injuries that at one time it was career over. Purdy looked like he was never hurt. Penix isn't even in the competition because there isn't one. His job is to get ready to play as quickly as possible. That will start with understanding coverage, rush packages and how that will impact his progressions. If he even done progressions in college. I'm sure the Falcons are different. If he was a one look and shoot then he's way off.
You stated your/Kirk's case very eloquently. Penix shouldn't be in the conversation.
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Re: Latest on Kirk’s decision to leave Minnesota

Post by CharVike »

Looks like the Falcon tampering case will have a ruling this week. Be nice if they are forced to give us a pick. But I think it's always a forfeit of a pick. Maybe it's time to change that and luck will be on our side.
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Re: Latest on Kirk’s decision to leave Minnesota

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Fat Stupid Loser wrote: Wed May 15, 2024 12:10 pm
VikingLord wrote: Wed May 15, 2024 11:59 am

I do think Penix competes for that starting job down there. I think odds are at least 50-50 he wins it.
Penix isn't winning any QB job in the NFL. He couldn't beat out the kid built like Barney Fife in Carolina.
Kirk’s status after the injury and without KOC in his ear “calming his mind” might make for a different outcome than expected. We have no idea what effect these Achilles injuries will have on Cousins and Rodgers. I don’t pay close enough attention to Atlanta to know who their other QB’s are so Penix starting could still be a reach.
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Re: Latest on Kirk’s decision to leave Minnesota

Post by JJBreaksRecords »

Kirk may have done us a favor on his way out. He decided to cheat with the Falcons, and by doing so we might get a 1st round pick next season. Being the Vikings that will never happen but maybe a 3rd?
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Re: Latest on Kirk’s decision to leave Minnesota

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JJBreaksRecords wrote: Wed Jun 12, 2024 7:24 pm Kirk may have done us a favor on his way out. He decided to cheat with the Falcons, and by doing so we might get a 1st round pick next season. Being the Vikings that will never happen but maybe a 3rd?
He owed us something when KAM and KOC threw him in the trash pile. He got another 100 million and might lose the job to a rookie. No more tape jobs for the ribs and chest. Sit back and count the cash. He might be the smartest QB ever from the financial side. Outside of Dan Jones of course. That's money for nothing unless he plays us.
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Re: Latest on Kirk’s decision to leave Minnesota

Post by makila »

Lost a fifth round pick and a fine.

https://x.com/AdamSchefter/status/18012 ... intcw&s=19

NFL ruled the Falcons had improper contact with prospective unrestricted free agents Kirk Cousins, Darnell Mooney, and Charlie Woerner during the two-day negotiating period prior to the start of the 2024 League Year.
 
Atlanta will forfeit its original fifth-round pick in the 2025 NFL Draft and pay a fine of $250,000, while General Manager Terry Fontenot has been fined $50,000.
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Re: Latest on Kirk’s decision to leave Minnesota

Post by Tommy TarkenKapp »

makila wrote: Thu Jun 13, 2024 9:58 am Lost a fifth round pick and a fine.

https://x.com/AdamSchefter/status/18012 ... intcw&s=19

NFL ruled the Falcons had improper contact with prospective unrestricted free agents Kirk Cousins, Darnell Mooney, and Charlie Woerner during the two-day negotiating period prior to the start of the 2024 League Year.
 
Atlanta will forfeit its original fifth-round pick in the 2025 NFL Draft and pay a fine of $250,000, while General Manager Terry Fontenot has been fined $50,000.
The good, old NFL slap on the wrist. "Now don't do that again." Or more likely. "Kindly, be a little more discreet next time."
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Re: Latest on Kirk’s decision to leave Minnesota

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Tommy TarkenKapp wrote: Thu Jun 13, 2024 10:18 am
makila wrote: Thu Jun 13, 2024 9:58 am Lost a fifth round pick and a fine.

https://x.com/AdamSchefter/status/18012 ... intcw&s=19

NFL ruled the Falcons had improper contact with prospective unrestricted free agents Kirk Cousins, Darnell Mooney, and Charlie Woerner during the two-day negotiating period prior to the start of the 2024 League Year.
 
Atlanta will forfeit its original fifth-round pick in the 2025 NFL Draft and pay a fine of $250,000, while General Manager Terry Fontenot has been fined $50,000.
The good, old NFL slap on the wrist. "Now don't do that again." Or more likely. "Kindly, be a little more discreet next time."
Yup, pretty harmless penalty when you want to get a jump on the negotiations.
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Re: Latest on Kirk’s decision to leave Minnesota

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Tommy TarkenKapp wrote: Thu Jun 13, 2024 10:18 am
makila wrote: Thu Jun 13, 2024 9:58 am Lost a fifth round pick and a fine.

https://x.com/AdamSchefter/status/18012 ... intcw&s=19

NFL ruled the Falcons had improper contact with prospective unrestricted free agents Kirk Cousins, Darnell Mooney, and Charlie Woerner during the two-day negotiating period prior to the start of the 2024 League Year.
 
Atlanta will forfeit its original fifth-round pick in the 2025 NFL Draft and pay a fine of $250,000, while General Manager Terry Fontenot has been fined $50,000.
The good, old NFL slap on the wrist. "Now don't do that again." Or more likely. "Kindly, be a little more discreet next time."
It was 3 players. I'm sure this happens all the time. It really comes down to the former teams of these players. It could have been avoided very easily. If you have a plan and vision which you hope they do these players had no value to the teams that said no thanks. They were all ready to move on based on their evaluation of their play and market conditions around those positions. Trevor Lawerence just signed I think the most expensive contract. They avoided all this nonsense because they wanted the player.
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Re: Latest on Kirk’s decision to leave Minnesota

Post by VikingLord »

Reading all this makes me chuckle a little. Sure, the league always needs competent QB play, but the only teams that would have been seriously interested in a QB fitting Cousins' age and injury profile would be ones who thought they were ready to compete in the near term but just lacked the QB. There aren't all that many teams that fit that profile. So it really came down to maybe 2 or 3 teams, one of which would have been the Vikings.

That couldn't have been an overheated market the Falcons were competing in, but it looks like they went all-in anyway with a deal that may rank among the worst free agent deals of all time for the team that signed it. And that is true even if they get four years out of Cousins and do make the playoffs once or twice during that time, because the odds are that at best they'll get to the 2nd round once during that time.

And that's the part I just don't get - why go to such great lengths that you actually end up breaking league rules to end up where the Falcons are likely to end up?