The official JJ McCarthy Thread

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VikingsVictorious
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Re: The official JJ McCarthy Thread

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VikingLord wrote: Wed May 15, 2024 11:44 am
VikingsVictorious wrote: Tue May 14, 2024 8:59 pm
Thor might be the biggest McCarthy Stan on the planet. He had him as a top 10 pick well before the rest did. I hope he's right.
I still think McCarthy is the biggest hit-or-miss QB prospect in this year's draft. Like you, I hope the people who were high on McCarthy's prospects were right.
I'm strongly of the opinion that he will hit not miss. Let's call it 80/20 on the hit side. Thor does make an incredible case for JJ.
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Re: The official JJ McCarthy Thread

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VikingsVictorious wrote: Wed May 15, 2024 12:25 pm
VikingLord wrote: Wed May 15, 2024 11:44 am

I still think McCarthy is the biggest hit-or-miss QB prospect in this year's draft. Like you, I hope the people who were high on McCarthy's prospects were right.
I'm strongly of the opinion that he will hit not miss. Let's call it 80/20 on the hit side. Thor does make an incredible case for JJ.
I've always managed to talk myself into pretty much any player the Vikings ever pick in every draft. When KAM passed up Hamilton and Davis to move back with the Lions and took Cine I found a way to make that make sense even though in retrospect it made no sense even then. Or when Spielman took Ponder where he took him. There is always some stat, some "bright side" analysis that can make pretty much any player look good or, if there are a lot of objective arguments against that player coming out of college, focus on his potential and ceiling if he pans out.

Still, not sure if McCarthy merits your level of confidence in him. As much as I'd like to agree with you, objectively there are enough question marks around him where I think even with great coaching and an ideal situation he might just not be all that special of a player. The Vikings are long overdue to land a rookie QB who becomes at least notable for what he can do on the field. It has been a long time since they've found one (Culpepper?). I too hope McCarthy is that guy. The Vikings are due a little good fortune in the draft at that position. But McCarthy has a lot to prove and show.
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Re: The official JJ McCarthy Thread

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VikingLord wrote: Wed May 15, 2024 4:07 pm
VikingsVictorious wrote: Wed May 15, 2024 12:25 pm
I'm strongly of the opinion that he will hit not miss. Let's call it 80/20 on the hit side. Thor does make an incredible case for JJ.
I've always managed to talk myself into pretty much any player the Vikings ever pick in every draft. When KAM passed up Hamilton and Davis to move back with the Lions and took Cine I found a way to make that make sense even though in retrospect it made no sense even then. Or when Spielman took Ponder where he took him. There is always some stat, some "bright side" analysis that can make pretty much any player look good or, if there are a lot of objective arguments against that player coming out of college, focus on his potential and ceiling if he pans out.

Still, not sure if McCarthy merits your level of confidence in him. As much as I'd like to agree with you, objectively there are enough question marks around him where I think even with great coaching and an ideal situation he might just not be all that special of a player. The Vikings are long overdue to land a rookie QB who becomes at least notable for what he can do on the field. It has been a long time since they've found one (Culpepper?). I too hope McCarthy is that guy. The Vikings are due a little good fortune in the draft at that position. But McCarthy has a lot to prove and show.
He's a physical marvel, with a winning pedigree and incredible passing stats in college be it on low volume. I just don't think passing 35-40 times a game instead of 22 times a game is going to cause his passing to fall off a cliff. I see enough to make me very confident.
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Re: The official JJ McCarthy Thread

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Ideally they wouldn't have to throw 40 times a game.
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Re: The official JJ McCarthy Thread

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Maelstrom88 wrote: Fri May 17, 2024 8:25 pm Ideally they wouldn't have to throw 40 times a game.
Ideally and Vikings hardly ever go together. If we can't run the ball again I don't see how they can avoid it. There's not too many Raider type of QBs playing and Fields is gone. We will need to keep pace.
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Re: The official JJ McCarthy Thread

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CharVike wrote: Sun May 19, 2024 12:37 pm
Maelstrom88 wrote: Fri May 17, 2024 8:25 pm Ideally they wouldn't have to throw 40 times a game.
Ideally and Vikings hardly ever go together. If we can't run the ball again I don't see how they can avoid it. There's not too many Raider type of QBs playing and Fields is gone. We will need to keep pace.
The offensive line is woefully thin. We don't even have quality starters in the interior let alone back ups. If an OT goes down we are in trouble as well. It would be nice if JJ had a run game and a fort in front of him like he did at Michigan.
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Re: The official JJ McCarthy Thread

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Maelstrom88 wrote: Sun May 19, 2024 4:19 pm
CharVike wrote: Sun May 19, 2024 12:37 pm
Ideally and Vikings hardly ever go together. If we can't run the ball again I don't see how they can avoid it. There's not too many Raider type of QBs playing and Fields is gone. We will need to keep pace.
The offensive line is woefully thin. We don't even have quality starters in the interior let alone back ups. If an OT goes down we are in trouble as well. It would be nice if JJ had a run game and a fort in front of him like he did at Michigan.
JJ was one piece of the puzzle that won the championship. If they had a weak OL that wouldn't happen. If their D sucked it wouldn't happen either. Our current OL is the same old deal. To weak to handle the strong defensive fronts. I'm a firm believer in taking over the LOS play first. Then other things can happen.
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Re: The official JJ McCarthy Thread

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CharVike wrote: Mon May 20, 2024 1:12 pm
Maelstrom88 wrote: Sun May 19, 2024 4:19 pm

The offensive line is woefully thin. We don't even have quality starters in the interior let alone back ups. If an OT goes down we are in trouble as well. It would be nice if JJ had a run game and a fort in front of him like he did at Michigan.
JJ was one piece of the puzzle that won the championship. If they had a weak OL that wouldn't happen. If their D sucked it wouldn't happen either. Our current OL is the same old deal. To weak to handle the strong defensive fronts. I'm a firm believer in taking over the LOS play first. Then other things can happen.
If McCarthy is going to succeed in Minnesota he's going to have to show he can feel and handle pressure. The Vikings are not the run-oriented offense he led while at Michigan. In Minnesota he's far more likely to find himself in obvious passing situations where the opposing defense will bring extra rushers and try to force him into mistakes. If I had to guess, I'd guess that this is what KOC and the coaching staff will be evaluating McCarthy's readiness on. Can he complete the pre-snap and post-snap reads needed to both anticipate where the pressure is likely to come from and what he has to do to beat it?

McCarthy wasn't known for passing a lot in college, but he did seem to do well when Michigan needed him to be clutch and he was able to extend plays with his legs and his scrambling, so there is evidence he'll be able to do the same in the pros. The best pro QBs are the ones who can thrive when the pocket isn't clean or their receivers aren't wide open. They're the guys who make plays when the plays aren't obvious. There are some who can do it with impeccable timing and accuracy, but most do it by being able to sense pressure and react to it accordingly, not getting easily flushed out or baited into making ill-advised throws.

I'm optimistic McCarthy will be a QB who can do that as a pro.
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Re: The official JJ McCarthy Thread

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VikingLord wrote: Tue May 21, 2024 4:31 pm
CharVike wrote: Mon May 20, 2024 1:12 pm
JJ was one piece of the puzzle that won the championship. If they had a weak OL that wouldn't happen. If their D sucked it wouldn't happen either. Our current OL is the same old deal. To weak to handle the strong defensive fronts. I'm a firm believer in taking over the LOS play first. Then other things can happen.
If McCarthy is going to succeed in Minnesota he's going to have to show he can feel and handle pressure. The Vikings are not the run-oriented offense he led while at Michigan. In Minnesota he's far more likely to find himself in obvious passing situations where the opposing defense will bring extra rushers and try to force him into mistakes. If I had to guess, I'd guess that this is what KOC and the coaching staff will be evaluating McCarthy's readiness on. Can he complete the pre-snap and post-snap reads needed to both anticipate where the pressure is likely to come from and what he has to do to beat it?

McCarthy wasn't known for passing a lot in college, but he did seem to do well when Michigan needed him to be clutch and he was able to extend plays with his legs and his scrambling, so there is evidence he'll be able to do the same in the pros. The best pro QBs are the ones who can thrive when the pocket isn't clean or their receivers aren't wide open. They're the guys who make plays when the plays aren't obvious. There are some who can do it with impeccable timing and accuracy, but most do it by being able to sense pressure and react to it accordingly, not getting easily flushed out or baited into making ill-advised throws.

I'm optimistic McCarthy will be a QB who can do that as a pro.
You're right we are not run oriented mainly because we had games when we couldn't run. We couldn't block. We were No 4 in pass attempts. But JJM did make clutch throws when asked to. He also had the blocking to make those throws. I look at sacks allowed by team. You have pocket passers like Goff, Stafford and Purdy who's OL didn't allow many sacks. Then you have guys like Allen and Mahomes who both have great pocket movement and their OLs were the only 2 to give up under 30 which is incredible. You need an OL that limits the rush or your done. IMO the teams that allowed under 40 sacks have the best pass blocking OLs. And those QBs are all over the board. You have pocket, movement and rushers. Some have all 3 skills like Allen. Bottom line we gave up 47 sacks and I'll pin that on bad blocking. These middle 3 guys we put out there are pitiful and it's been like that for a long time. Every team attacks our middle. The Bengals are the same garbage and allowed 50 sacks. That can't and won't work if you want to go all the way.
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Re: The official JJ McCarthy Thread

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CharVike wrote: Wed May 22, 2024 9:35 am
VikingLord wrote: Tue May 21, 2024 4:31 pm

If McCarthy is going to succeed in Minnesota he's going to have to show he can feel and handle pressure. The Vikings are not the run-oriented offense he led while at Michigan. In Minnesota he's far more likely to find himself in obvious passing situations where the opposing defense will bring extra rushers and try to force him into mistakes. If I had to guess, I'd guess that this is what KOC and the coaching staff will be evaluating McCarthy's readiness on. Can he complete the pre-snap and post-snap reads needed to both anticipate where the pressure is likely to come from and what he has to do to beat it?

McCarthy wasn't known for passing a lot in college, but he did seem to do well when Michigan needed him to be clutch and he was able to extend plays with his legs and his scrambling, so there is evidence he'll be able to do the same in the pros. The best pro QBs are the ones who can thrive when the pocket isn't clean or their receivers aren't wide open. They're the guys who make plays when the plays aren't obvious. There are some who can do it with impeccable timing and accuracy, but most do it by being able to sense pressure and react to it accordingly, not getting easily flushed out or baited into making ill-advised throws.

I'm optimistic McCarthy will be a QB who can do that as a pro.
You're right we are not run oriented mainly because we had games when we couldn't run. We couldn't block. We were No 4 in pass attempts. But JJM did make clutch throws when asked to. He also had the blocking to make those throws. I look at sacks allowed by team. You have pocket passers like Goff, Stafford and Purdy who's OL didn't allow many sacks. Then you have guys like Allen and Mahomes who both have great pocket movement and their OLs were the only 2 to give up under 30 which is incredible. You need an OL that limits the rush or your done. IMO the teams that allowed under 40 sacks have the best pass blocking OLs. And those QBs are all over the board. You have pocket, movement and rushers. Some have all 3 skills like Allen. Bottom line we gave up 47 sacks and I'll pin that on bad blocking. These middle 3 guys we put out there are pitiful and it's been like that for a long time. Every team attacks our middle. The Bengals are the same garbage and allowed 50 sacks. That can't and won't work if you want to go all the way.
To be fair Kirk is a statue and doesn’t like throwing the ball away from what I’ve noticed, maybe he’s worried about his completion %. I’m not ready to say this oline is great but 47 sacks didn’t solely fall on the oline. Was kirk good at blitz pick up? The falcons had a top 5 oline last year, do you think it will improve going from Ridder to Cousins? I believe statistically they will be worse based off the starting qb.
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Re: The official JJ McCarthy Thread

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allday1991 wrote: Wed May 22, 2024 3:03 pm
CharVike wrote: Wed May 22, 2024 9:35 am
You're right we are not run oriented mainly because we had games when we couldn't run. We couldn't block. We were No 4 in pass attempts. But JJM did make clutch throws when asked to. He also had the blocking to make those throws. I look at sacks allowed by team. You have pocket passers like Goff, Stafford and Purdy who's OL didn't allow many sacks. Then you have guys like Allen and Mahomes who both have great pocket movement and their OLs were the only 2 to give up under 30 which is incredible. You need an OL that limits the rush or your done. IMO the teams that allowed under 40 sacks have the best pass blocking OLs. And those QBs are all over the board. You have pocket, movement and rushers. Some have all 3 skills like Allen. Bottom line we gave up 47 sacks and I'll pin that on bad blocking. These middle 3 guys we put out there are pitiful and it's been like that for a long time. Every team attacks our middle. The Bengals are the same garbage and allowed 50 sacks. That can't and won't work if you want to go all the way.
To be fair Kirk is a statue and doesn’t like throwing the ball away from what I’ve noticed, maybe he’s worried about his completion %. I’m not ready to say this oline is great but 47 sacks didn’t solely fall on the oline. Was kirk good at blitz pick up? The falcons had a top 5 oline last year, do you think it will improve going from Ridder to Cousins? I believe statistically they will be worse based off the starting qb.
I'm in agreement with AD91 on this. The number of sacks don't tell the whole story. Not without context anyhow. Did the QB not read the blitz? Did the RB not pick-up the blitzer? The O-lines of the Vikes & Bengals for that matter have been serviceable at the very least. Not great by any standards but they pretty much get the job done.

If folks want stats to prove it. Look no further than Cousins' stats since 2018. He has averaged around 4,000 passing yards & 30 TD passes per season. He's not racking up those kinds of stats on his back or running for his life behind a garbage O-line. And it's pretty well known that Kirk doesn't typically create outside of the called play. He's getting adequate protection to accumulate those passing statistics.

As for Burrow...view his stats when he's played a full season (2021 & 2022). Averaging around 4,000 passing yards & 30 TD passes per season. The Bengals found their way to the Super Bowl in 2021 & the AFC Championship in 2022. That doesn't happen with a garbage O-line.

And people don't give credit to how tough Cousins & Burrows are. They hold on to the ball a little long at times waiting for a receiver to break open. They take a lot of hits. And some of those hits are sacks. It's absolutely astonishing to me that Cousins' injury occurred without being touched by a defender.

Can the O-Lines be better? Hell yes!! But, they're not garbage. And let's remember that the pass rushers get paid pretty damn well to get after the QB.
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Re: The official JJ McCarthy Thread

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CharVike wrote: Wed May 22, 2024 9:35 am You're right we are not run oriented mainly because we had games when we couldn't run. We couldn't block. We were No 4 in pass attempts. But JJM did make clutch throws when asked to. He also had the blocking to make those throws. I look at sacks allowed by team. You have pocket passers like Goff, Stafford and Purdy who's OL didn't allow many sacks. Then you have guys like Allen and Mahomes who both have great pocket movement and their OLs were the only 2 to give up under 30 which is incredible. You need an OL that limits the rush or your done. IMO the teams that allowed under 40 sacks have the best pass blocking OLs. And those QBs are all over the board. You have pocket, movement and rushers. Some have all 3 skills like Allen. Bottom line we gave up 47 sacks and I'll pin that on bad blocking. These middle 3 guys we put out there are pitiful and it's been like that for a long time. Every team attacks our middle. The Bengals are the same garbage and allowed 50 sacks. That can't and won't work if you want to go all the way.
If that is the case then I don't think either Sam Darnold or McCarthy will do well this year, or at the very least if they do well it will not be because their OL protection improved compared to last year. I say that because I don't believe KAM made any moves in FA or the draft that addressed the interior OL. If there will be improvement, it will have to come from within the existing player ranks and while I'd love to believe that will happen, I think the only OL player that could improve much at this point is Ed Ingram (and I'm doubtful he will improve much if at all).

In some ways I found it surprising that the Vikings went with McCarthy and not Nix. While McCarthy is younger and has a potentially higher ceiling, Nix is more a QB in the Cousins model. Nix was well known for running the offense with efficiency and handling pressure very well. He wasn't known for scrambling or running necessarily and wasn't very aggressive in terms of attacking the middle and deep parts of the field, but he was an excellent system QB who threw with timing and accuracy and was hard to rattle. Between McCarthy and Nix it seemed Nix fit the profile of a QB in KOC's system. I suppose one could claim the same about McCarthy given what he was asked to do generally in Harbaugh's offense at Michigan, but when McCarthy had to make a play he was far more likely to take more risk than Nix from what I saw and read about the two. Maybe that is what KOC was looking for - a QB who, once he demonstrates he understands the offense and scheme, is willing and able to push the envelope more and perhaps find greater rewards as a result.

Whatever it is, it is pretty clear that the Vikings are standing pat along the entire OL this season, and whoever ends up as the starting QB is going to have to deal with that and the resulting interior pressure he is likely to face. That actually might be a good reason KOC will sit McCarthy for the coming year. Dealing with a lot of pass rush pressure has doomed more than one rookie QB. Even very talented top picks have wilted under the intense pressure that the bad OL's they get stuck behind typically allow, and I think that stunts their growth as it causes them to become far more risk averse than they otherwise might be. It might take another draft for KAM to find the interior OL talent in FA or the draft needed to provide McCarthy with the protection he needs to succeed once they start him. Even if McCarthy is technically ready, that might be the wisest thing they can do to maximize the chances he'll pan out.

It will be interesting to see how Darnold deals with that interior pressure. He's been in the league long enough to have a good chance of dealing with it. With any luck the running game and short passing game will be good enough where he won't have to drop back and hold onto it too long.
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Re: The official JJ McCarthy Thread

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I’m putting this here cause I didn’t know where else to put it. Aaron Jones… this is INCREDIBLY petty, and hopefully it’s just my own ignorance. But I’m watching the OTA’s, it looks like the guy’s hairline starts on the very top of his head. And I don’t remember noticing that before, granted, I am used to seeing him with his helmet on as the enemy. But the skeptic in me wonders if, as soon as he comes to Minnesota, he somehow ages 10 years and that extrapolates to the production we may see on the field. Just making conversation.
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Re: The official JJ McCarthy Thread

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AND another observation I’ve made is that Dallas Turner seems to be a bit on the thin side upper-body wise. Saw a pic of his legs and they are giant. Maybe it’s that lower body power and upper body lightness that allows him to out-agility or out-speed heavy O-lineman at the college level. But I do wonder about his bull rush and hand fighting going against O tackles that are sturdy and agile. Seeing Turner compete against our book-ends will tell a lot, especially if he can overpower Darrisaw, and out-run O’Neil.
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Re: The official JJ McCarthy Thread

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Tommy TarkenKapp wrote: Wed May 22, 2024 3:40 pm
allday1991 wrote: Wed May 22, 2024 3:03 pm

To be fair Kirk is a statue and doesn’t like throwing the ball away from what I’ve noticed, maybe he’s worried about his completion %. I’m not ready to say this oline is great but 47 sacks didn’t solely fall on the oline. Was kirk good at blitz pick up? The falcons had a top 5 oline last year, do you think it will improve going from Ridder to Cousins? I believe statistically they will be worse based off the starting qb.
I'm in agreement with AD91 on this. The number of sacks don't tell the whole story. Not without context anyhow. Did the QB not read the blitz? Did the RB not pick-up the blitzer? The O-lines of the Vikes & Bengals for that matter have been serviceable at the very least. Not great by any standards but they pretty much get the job done.

If folks want stats to prove it. Look no further than Cousins' stats since 2018. He has averaged around 4,000 passing yards & 30 TD passes per season. He's not racking up those kinds of stats on his back or running for his life behind a garbage O-line. And it's pretty well known that Kirk doesn't typically create outside of the called play. He's getting adequate protection to accumulate those passing statistics.

As for Burrow...view his stats when he's played a full season (2021 & 2022). Averaging around 4,000 passing yards & 30 TD passes per season. The Bengals found their way to the Super Bowl in 2021 & the AFC Championship in 2022. That doesn't happen with a garbage O-line.

And people don't give credit to how tough Cousins & Burrows are. They hold on to the ball a little long at times waiting for a receiver to break open. They take a lot of hits. And some of those hits are sacks. It's absolutely astonishing to me that Cousins' injury occurred without being touched by a defender.

Can the O-Lines be better? Hell yes!! But, they're not garbage. And let's remember that the pass rushers get paid pretty damn well to get after the QB.
Garbage was to harsh. But the Bengals did pick an OL player in round 1 this year for a reason. Both us and the Bengals put up points because we have a QB and skill players. Both have good but not dominate T. Our OL can do fine against the so so teams. We all saw what Dexter Lawerance did to our IOL. He dominated. If we did win that game and we played that Eagle team it would have been a blood bath because their D front was way to strong for our OL. Like Clevland he always sucked. That's why we got a 6th round pick. He's a backup player not a starter. Ingram is worse than him. Bradberry gets pushed around. He can't hold the point.
Burrow is also considered a non athletic QB which is a bunch of BS. That playoff run he was chased out of the pocket because his OL gave up the middle and sprinted towards the sideline. He had the mental ability to recognize when he was going OB and made a throw towards the center of the end zone between defenders for a TD. The mental side is also part of being athletic. That's what controls the body movement. That's why he was pick No 1. When I hear not athletic I get ticked. These people are playing an athletic sport at the highest level. It's not a chess match. Of course there is degrees of athleticism. We brought in a CB who ran a 4.2 but he couldn't play the position and was eventually cut. He could do one thing, run straight, better than 99%. Beyond that nothing.
Last edited by CharVike on Thu May 23, 2024 9:43 am, edited 1 time in total.