Justin Jefferson

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Re: Justin Jefferson

Post by Cliff »

CharVike wrote: Tue Apr 16, 2024 10:10 pmI do feel Kam should have drafted someone before we arrived in the position we are in now.
I keep seeing people write this, but how?

In 2022 a QB wasn't picked until #20 (Kenny Pickett). The next wasn't selected until the 3rd. It wasn't a good draft to pick a QB.

In 2023 they tried to trade up for a QB, reportedly offering multiple 1sts to do so. They couldn't get a partner. They could have taken Levis at 23 instead of Addison but considering he dropped to 33 I think they didn't like him. They didn't have a 2nd rounder.

Basically, Levis at 23 would have been the only realistic option during their time so far. Considering every single other team, including the one that eventually drafted him, passed on him in the 1st I can't blame them.
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Re: Justin Jefferson

Post by Tommy TarkenKapp »

Cliff wrote: Wed Apr 17, 2024 5:54 am
CharVike wrote: Tue Apr 16, 2024 10:10 pmI do feel Kam should have drafted someone before we arrived in the position we are in now.
I keep seeing people write this, but how?

In 2022 a QB wasn't picked until #20 (Kenny Pickett). The next wasn't selected until the 3rd. It wasn't a good draft to pick a QB.

In 2023 they tried to trade up for a QB, reportedly offering multiple 1sts to do so. They couldn't get a partner. They could have taken Levis at 23 instead of Addison but considering he dropped to 33 I think they didn't like him. They didn't have a 2nd rounder.

Basically, Levis at 23 would have been the only realistic option during their time so far.
Now why did you have to go & do that? Applying solid, logical reason as to why KAM/KOC didn't draft a QB other than Hall these last two years. Sarcasm aside. I agree wholeheartedly. The pickins were quite slim. I'm willing to let KAM/KOC carry out their plan & see what the results might be.

After a decade plus of Slick Rick bungling the QB position. Us Vikings fans have just come to expect GM ineptitude when it comes to obtaining a potential, franchise QB. Post Traumatic General Manager Disorder.
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Re: Justin Jefferson

Post by CharVike »

Cliff wrote: Wed Apr 17, 2024 5:54 am
CharVike wrote: Tue Apr 16, 2024 10:10 pmI do feel Kam should have drafted someone before we arrived in the position we are in now.
I keep seeing people write this, but how?

In 2022 a QB wasn't picked until #20 (Kenny Pickett). The next wasn't selected until the 3rd. It wasn't a good draft to pick a QB.

In 2023 they tried to trade up for a QB, reportedly offering multiple 1sts to do so. They couldn't get a partner. They could have taken Levis at 23 instead of Addison but considering he dropped to 33 I think they didn't like him. They didn't have a 2nd rounder.

Basically, Levis at 23 would have been the only realistic option during their time so far. Considering every single other team, including the one that eventually drafted him, passed on him in the 1st I can't blame them.
What's wrong with Levis? He's only in his 2nd year and played some year 1 with mixed results. He will start this year. I would consider that a very good later 1st round pick for us. Addison was a very good pick but WRs are much easier to find than QBs. The guy the Rams picked in round 5 was much better than Addison. He broke rookie records. This year in the media there are 6 guys that will go round 1. A few of them will slide out of round 1 just like Levis and M Willis did. Jayden Daniels went from day 3 pick to top 3. I don't understand that one. He didn't do much at all his first 4 years. Same with Penix. His injury history has to be considered along with his bad showing in the Champ game. Plus it was year 6 for him. That's a joke. KAM felt it was better looking long term than playing for the now. As a 54 year fan I would rather play for the now because the now's are running out. Cycling through QBs isn't fun. I've seen that enough in my life time.
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Re: Justin Jefferson

Post by Cliff »

CharVike wrote: Wed Apr 17, 2024 9:35 am
Cliff wrote: Wed Apr 17, 2024 5:54 am

I keep seeing people write this, but how?

In 2022 a QB wasn't picked until #20 (Kenny Pickett). The next wasn't selected until the 3rd. It wasn't a good draft to pick a QB.

In 2023 they tried to trade up for a QB, reportedly offering multiple 1sts to do so. They couldn't get a partner. They could have taken Levis at 23 instead of Addison but considering he dropped to 33 I think they didn't like him. They didn't have a 2nd rounder.

Basically, Levis at 23 would have been the only realistic option during their time so far. Considering every single other team, including the one that eventually drafted him, passed on him in the 1st I can't blame them.
What's wrong with Levis? He's only in his 2nd year and played some year 1 with mixed results. He will start this year. I would consider that a very good later 1st round pick for us. Addison was a very good pick but WRs are much easier to find than QBs. The guy the Rams picked in round 5 was much better than Addison. He broke rookie records. This year in the media there are 6 guys that will go round 1. A few of them will slide out of round 1 just like Levis and M Willis did. Jayden Daniels went from day 3 pick to top 3. I don't understand that one. He didn't do much at all his first 4 years. Same with Penix. His injury history has to be considered along with his bad showing in the Champ game. Plus it was year 6 for him. That's a joke. KAM felt it was better looking long term than playing for the now. As a 54 year fan I would rather play for the now because the now's are running out. Cycling through QBs isn't fun. I've seen that enough in my life time.
Nothing is wrong with Levis in hindsight. In the 2023 draft every NFL team agreed the 1st round was too high for him. My guess is the staff thought he was a significant reach in the 1st or maybe didn't want him at all. They couldn't move up for a "top tier" option and decided not to pull another Ponder scenario; drafting a lower tier QB in the 1st round just because they need one.

When someone says "KAM didn't do anything in the draft to address the future at QB" what you're actually saying is "KAM should have drafted Levis." as that is the only real option they've had.

Considering their only option thus far has been a 2nd round talent QB ... again ... I'm glad it didn't happen.
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Re: Justin Jefferson

Post by BeforeIDie »

Cliff wrote: Wed Apr 17, 2024 10:10 am
CharVike wrote: Wed Apr 17, 2024 9:35 am
What's wrong with Levis? He's only in his 2nd year and played some year 1 with mixed results. He will start this year. I would consider that a very good later 1st round pick for us. Addison was a very good pick but WRs are much easier to find than QBs. The guy the Rams picked in round 5 was much better than Addison. He broke rookie records. This year in the media there are 6 guys that will go round 1. A few of them will slide out of round 1 just like Levis and M Willis did. Jayden Daniels went from day 3 pick to top 3. I don't understand that one. He didn't do much at all his first 4 years. Same with Penix. His injury history has to be considered along with his bad showing in the Champ game. Plus it was year 6 for him. That's a joke. KAM felt it was better looking long term than playing for the now. As a 54 year fan I would rather play for the now because the now's are running out. Cycling through QBs isn't fun. I've seen that enough in my life time.
Nothing is wrong with Levis in hindsight. In the 2023 draft every NFL team agreed the 1st round was too high for him. My guess is the staff thought he was a significant reach in the 1st or maybe didn't want him at all. They couldn't move up for a "top tier" option and decided not to pull another Ponder scenario; drafting a lower tier QB in the 1st round just because they need one.

When someone says "KAM didn't do anything in the draft to address the future at QB" what you're actually saying is "KAM should have drafted Levis." as that is the only real option they've had.

Considering their only option thus far has been a 2nd round talent QB ... again ... I'm glad it didn't happen.
2nd rd talent QB, regarding Levis, is assuming he doesn’t amount to much. Was Brady a 5th rd talent? Would you trade Andrew Booth jr for Will Levis right now? And, as has been stated before in this same thread, Hooker went in the 3rd rd. And there is FREE AGENCY. I’d rather have Case Keenum right now than Sam Darnold, especially given the Monopoly money. I am seeing Mel Kiper (heard of him?) mock the Vikings trading 11, 23, AND the 2025 1st for Mcarthy. That’s a bigger investment gamble than paying Kirk even $50 Milly a year. And speaking of hindsight… Addison is an easy example to use in hindsight. Addison could have easily turned out terrible. And yes, Id trade Addison for Will Levis straight up right now (IF the Vikings don’t acquire a QB in the first rd this year). I also wouldn’t have minded having Hooker on our team last season for a 3rd, especially since we would’ve seen him swim in the deep end given the Kirk Achilles.
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Re: Justin Jefferson

Post by VikingsVictorious »

CharVike wrote: Wed Apr 17, 2024 9:35 am
Cliff wrote: Wed Apr 17, 2024 5:54 am

I keep seeing people write this, but how?

In 2022 a QB wasn't picked until #20 (Kenny Pickett). The next wasn't selected until the 3rd. It wasn't a good draft to pick a QB.

In 2023 they tried to trade up for a QB, reportedly offering multiple 1sts to do so. They couldn't get a partner. They could have taken Levis at 23 instead of Addison but considering he dropped to 33 I think they didn't like him. They didn't have a 2nd rounder.

Basically, Levis at 23 would have been the only realistic option during their time so far. Considering every single other team, including the one that eventually drafted him, passed on him in the 1st I can't blame them.
What's wrong with Levis? He's only in his 2nd year and played some year 1 with mixed results. He will start this year. I would consider that a very good later 1st round pick for us. Addison was a very good pick but WRs are much easier to find than QBs. The guy the Rams picked in round 5 was much better than Addison. He broke rookie records. This year in the media there are 6 guys that will go round 1. A few of them will slide out of round 1 just like Levis and M Willis did. Jayden Daniels went from day 3 pick to top 3. I don't understand that one. He didn't do much at all his first 4 years. Same with Penix. His injury history has to be considered along with his bad showing in the Champ game. Plus it was year 6 for him. That's a joke. KAM felt it was better looking long term than playing for the now. As a 54 year fan I would rather play for the now because the now's are running out. Cycling through QBs isn't fun. I've seen that enough in my life time.
The Problem with Levis is he appears to be a QB with a ceiling of Average NFL starter. I'd rather have Addison and try to get a QB with a higher ceiling in this draft.
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Re: Justin Jefferson

Post by CharVike »

VikingsVictorious wrote: Wed Apr 17, 2024 9:07 pm
CharVike wrote: Wed Apr 17, 2024 9:35 am
What's wrong with Levis? He's only in his 2nd year and played some year 1 with mixed results. He will start this year. I would consider that a very good later 1st round pick for us. Addison was a very good pick but WRs are much easier to find than QBs. The guy the Rams picked in round 5 was much better than Addison. He broke rookie records. This year in the media there are 6 guys that will go round 1. A few of them will slide out of round 1 just like Levis and M Willis did. Jayden Daniels went from day 3 pick to top 3. I don't understand that one. He didn't do much at all his first 4 years. Same with Penix. His injury history has to be considered along with his bad showing in the Champ game. Plus it was year 6 for him. That's a joke. KAM felt it was better looking long term than playing for the now. As a 54 year fan I would rather play for the now because the now's are running out. Cycling through QBs isn't fun. I've seen that enough in my life time.
The Problem with Levis is he appears to be a QB with a ceiling of Average NFL starter. I'd rather have Addison and try to get a QB with a higher ceiling in this draft.
I would trade Addison for Levis. But I doubt the Titians would do it. We will never be able to keep both Addison and Jefferson. The cap hit would be to large for the position group. One will need to go. Of course you can take away from other position groups and make them weak. Of course none of this will happen because the Titians want to see what they have in Levis year 2. He will struggle and then they will do it again. We are about to go through that same process of waiting years to see if the right guy was picked.
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Re: Justin Jefferson

Post by Cliff »

BeforeIDie wrote: Wed Apr 17, 2024 8:37 pm
Cliff wrote: Wed Apr 17, 2024 10:10 am

Nothing is wrong with Levis in hindsight. In the 2023 draft every NFL team agreed the 1st round was too high for him. My guess is the staff thought he was a significant reach in the 1st or maybe didn't want him at all. They couldn't move up for a "top tier" option and decided not to pull another Ponder scenario; drafting a lower tier QB in the 1st round just because they need one.

When someone says "KAM didn't do anything in the draft to address the future at QB" what you're actually saying is "KAM should have drafted Levis." as that is the only real option they've had.

Considering their only option thus far has been a 2nd round talent QB ... again ... I'm glad it didn't happen.
2nd rd talent QB, regarding Levis, is assuming he doesn’t amount to much. Was Brady a 5th rd talent? Would you trade Andrew Booth jr for Will Levis right now? And, as has been stated before in this same thread, Hooker went in the 3rd rd. And there is FREE AGENCY. I’d rather have Case Keenum right now than Sam Darnold, especially given the Monopoly money. I am seeing Mel Kiper (heard of him?) mock the Vikings trading 11, 23, AND the 2025 1st for Mcarthy. That’s a bigger investment gamble than paying Kirk even $50 Milly a year. And speaking of hindsight… Addison is an easy example to use in hindsight. Addison could have easily turned out terrible. And yes, Id trade Addison for Will Levis straight up right now (IF the Vikings don’t acquire a QB in the first rd this year). I also wouldn’t have minded having Hooker on our team last season for a 3rd, especially since we would’ve seen him swim in the deep end given the Kirk Achilles.
So then the Vikings have done exactly what you want already. Drafted a QB in the 5th and had him sit behind Cousins for a year. In fact, you should be thrilled with how the Vikings have handled QB over the last 20 or so years. Drafting QBs low and/or signing them from free agency.

Mel Kiper says a lot of things.

Anyway, I'm not saying QBs in lower rounds CAN'T be good but that strategy hasn't panned out for the Vikings and I'm tired of watching it.
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Re: Justin Jefferson

Post by CharVike »

Cliff wrote: Thu Apr 18, 2024 7:17 am
BeforeIDie wrote: Wed Apr 17, 2024 8:37 pm

2nd rd talent QB, regarding Levis, is assuming he doesn’t amount to much. Was Brady a 5th rd talent? Would you trade Andrew Booth jr for Will Levis right now? And, as has been stated before in this same thread, Hooker went in the 3rd rd. And there is FREE AGENCY. I’d rather have Case Keenum right now than Sam Darnold, especially given the Monopoly money. I am seeing Mel Kiper (heard of him?) mock the Vikings trading 11, 23, AND the 2025 1st for Mcarthy. That’s a bigger investment gamble than paying Kirk even $50 Milly a year. And speaking of hindsight… Addison is an easy example to use in hindsight. Addison could have easily turned out terrible. And yes, Id trade Addison for Will Levis straight up right now (IF the Vikings don’t acquire a QB in the first rd this year). I also wouldn’t have minded having Hooker on our team last season for a 3rd, especially since we would’ve seen him swim in the deep end given the Kirk Achilles.
So then the Vikings have done exactly what you want already. Drafted a QB in the 5th and had him sit behind Cousins for a year. In fact, you should be thrilled with how the Vikings have handled QB over the last 20 or so years. Drafting QBs low and/or signing them from free agency.

Mel Kiper says a lot of things.

Anyway, I'm not saying QBs in lower rounds CAN'T be good but that strategy hasn't panned out for the Vikings and I'm tired of watching it.
No strategy has panned out for our team no matter what the approach has been. We are the Bears when it comes to selecting a QB. This current class appears to be much deeper than the normal class. That is from the early round projections down to the lower projections. I started this off with thinking take as many as possible. Then I started thinking just pick the guy everyone, supposedly, agrees with. I'm back to picking multiple guys. I don't recall us ever doing that. Maybe Hall is the guy. He improved every year in college which is a positive. It wasn't one great year and before that nothing. He's 26 so he was an older college player and I'm sure that helped. He's only 6'1" which is a bit short but Caleb is the same and is the No 1 pick. Who knows. Nothing is being said about him which also might be a positive or he's already forgotten. Plus he's a dual threat which everybody and their brother thinks is a must have or you don't have a chance. Purdy does fine and I wouldn't call him a dual threat.
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Re: Justin Jefferson

Post by Cliff »

CharVike wrote: Thu Apr 18, 2024 8:29 am No strategy has panned out for our team no matter what the approach has been. We are the Bears when it comes to selecting a QB. This current class appears to be much deeper than the normal class. That is from the early round projections down to the lower projections. I started this off with thinking take as many as possible. Then I started thinking just pick the guy everyone, supposedly, agrees with. I'm back to picking multiple guys. I don't recall us ever doing that. Maybe Hall is the guy. He improved every year in college which is a positive. It wasn't one great year and before that nothing. He's 26 so he was an older college player and I'm sure that helped. He's only 6'1" which is a bit short but Caleb is the same and is the No 1 pick. Who knows. Nothing is being said about him which also might be a positive or he's already forgotten. Plus he's a dual threat which everybody and their brother thinks is a must have or you don't have a chance. Purdy does fine and I wouldn't call him a dual threat.
That's why I want them to try something new. Not waiting and hoping whoever they want falls or whoever falls will work out. Not hoping you can coach up some 3rd or 4th rounder behind a free agent QB. Actually target a QB that fits your offense and do everything you can to get them. They have not tried that to my knowledge. Or more aptly they've never been able to pull it off. Supposedly last year they tried to do that.
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Re: Justin Jefferson

Post by VikingsVictorious »

CharVike wrote: Thu Apr 18, 2024 6:12 am
VikingsVictorious wrote: Wed Apr 17, 2024 9:07 pm
The Problem with Levis is he appears to be a QB with a ceiling of Average NFL starter. I'd rather have Addison and try to get a QB with a higher ceiling in this draft.
I would trade Addison for Levis. But I doubt the Titians would do it. We will never be able to keep both Addison and Jefferson. The cap hit would be to large for the position group. One will need to go. Of course you can take away from other position groups and make them weak. Of course none of this will happen because the Titians want to see what they have in Levis year 2. He will struggle and then they will do it again. We are about to go through that same process of waiting years to see if the right guy was picked.
You're in favor of trading a likely Pro Bowl receiver for an at best middle of the pack QB, because you believe the WR will get too expensive. Sorry Char, but I'm shocked. Doing that eliminates all chance of us ever becoming a good team until we replace that QB with somebody good..
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Re: Justin Jefferson

Post by CharVike »

Cliff wrote: Thu Apr 18, 2024 8:49 am
CharVike wrote: Thu Apr 18, 2024 8:29 am No strategy has panned out for our team no matter what the approach has been. We are the Bears when it comes to selecting a QB. This current class appears to be much deeper than the normal class. That is from the early round projections down to the lower projections. I started this off with thinking take as many as possible. Then I started thinking just pick the guy everyone, supposedly, agrees with. I'm back to picking multiple guys. I don't recall us ever doing that. Maybe Hall is the guy. He improved every year in college which is a positive. It wasn't one great year and before that nothing. He's 26 so he was an older college player and I'm sure that helped. He's only 6'1" which is a bit short but Caleb is the same and is the No 1 pick. Who knows. Nothing is being said about him which also might be a positive or he's already forgotten. Plus he's a dual threat which everybody and their brother thinks is a must have or you don't have a chance. Purdy does fine and I wouldn't call him a dual threat.
That's why I want them to try something new. Not waiting and hoping whoever they want falls or whoever falls will work out. Not hoping you can coach up some 3rd or 4th rounder behind a free agent QB. Actually target a QB that fits your offense and do everything you can to get them. They have not tried that to my knowledge. Or more aptly they've never been able to pull it off. Supposedly last year they tried to do that.
They did trade back into round 1 for Teddy. I forgot also and looked it up. He seemed to fit exactly what Zim wanted to do which is all you can ask for and an excellent choice. Zim and Speil were on the same page. It might have worked but his injury caused us to go back on the hunt that ended with Cousins after a few swings and misses. He didn't fit with Zim's vision and it was a fast decay downward as we failed in the draft. Here we sit again back on the hunt. I expect them to make a move up and get the guy they want. I have no idea who that guy is. But I expect it to be a pocket passer who has a good arm. That seems to be what KOC wants.
If it works we will have a starter later in the year to try and save the season or just run it out.
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Re: Justin Jefferson

Post by Cliff »

CharVike wrote: Thu Apr 18, 2024 9:15 am
Cliff wrote: Thu Apr 18, 2024 8:49 am

That's why I want them to try something new. Not waiting and hoping whoever they want falls or whoever falls will work out. Not hoping you can coach up some 3rd or 4th rounder behind a free agent QB. Actually target a QB that fits your offense and do everything you can to get them. They have not tried that to my knowledge. Or more aptly they've never been able to pull it off. Supposedly last year they tried to do that.
They did trade back into round 1 for Teddy. I forgot also and looked it up. He seemed to fit exactly what Zim wanted to do which is all you can ask for and an excellent choice. Zim and Speil were on the same page. It might have worked but his injury caused us to go back on the hunt that ended with Cousins after a few swings and misses. He didn't fit with Zim's vision and it was a fast decay downward as we failed in the draft. Here we sit again back on the hunt. I expect them to make a move up and get the guy they want. I have no idea who that guy is. But I expect it to be a pocket passer who has a good arm. That seems to be what KOC wants.
If it works we will have a starter later in the year to try and save the season or just run it out.
They did move up a few spaces to grab Bridgewater and he would have probably done really well if not for part of his leg falling off. I do think he fit the Zimmer mold perfectly. They might have even seen the super bowl in 2017 with him.

Even so, they didn't pick him with their higher first round pick. He fell far enough for them to trade back into the bottom of the 1st. He was the 3rd QB taken and was more or less the "leftovers".

I wouldn't be as gung-ho to get a "top QB" if it was still a defense first team but it's not. It's a pass heavy offense first team. QB has to be straightened out and it really needs to be addressed from the draft and not FA.
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Re: Justin Jefferson

Post by psjordan »

Bill Barnwell at ESPN posted this idea today (noting that he has no idea if the Vikes or JJ want a trade):

Patriots get: WR Justin Jefferson, #1-23
Vikings get: #1-3
Supposedly this values JJ as the #7 pick in the draft.

Vikes keep #1-11. Draft Maye or whoever at #1-3 and then best WR at #1-11 or trade up and try to get Odunze.
Pats have the cap to pay JJ position-setting money, go OT at #1-23 and then try for Nix or Penix later.

I hated the idea when I first read it, but now I'm not so sure - this might be a good move JUST based on talent and budget (disregarding things like JJ is the face of the franchise, fans love him, etc.).
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Re: Justin Jefferson

Post by Cliff »

psjordan wrote: Thu Apr 18, 2024 12:37 pm Bill Barnwell at ESPN posted this idea today (noting that he has no idea if the Vikes or JJ want a trade):

Patriots get: WR Justin Jefferson, #1-23
Vikings get: #1-3
Supposedly this values JJ as the #7 pick in the draft.

Vikes keep #1-11. Draft Maye or whoever at #1-3 and then best WR at #1-11 or trade up and try to get Odunze.
Pats have the cap to pay JJ position-setting money, go OT at #1-23 and then try for Nix or Penix later.

I hated the idea when I first read it, but now I'm not so sure - this might be a good move JUST based on talent and budget (disregarding things like JJ is the face of the franchise, fans love him, etc.).
That's interesting and I wouldn't thumb my nose at it. My first instinct about trading JJ was absolutely not earlier in the off season. Then I start to work out the math. His value vs. his cost against the cap. If he repeated his best season, he would get about $260k per catch. Is any WR worth that? I really don't know.

That said, I can't imagine he'll go anywhere for the part of your comment I bolded. I have no idea what the Vikings are making off of his merch, or the added demand for tickets because he's exciting to watch play, but I'm guessing it's significant. Without Cousins on the books they can make his contract work and especially if they hit on a good rookie QB that can keep the cost of that position down while getting high level play.