2024 NFL Draft

A forum for the hard core Minnesota Vikings fan. Discuss upcoming games, opponents, trades, draft or what ever is on the minds of Viking fans!

Moderator: Moderators

CharVike
Hall of Fame Candidate
Posts: 3517
Joined: Sun Jan 20, 2019 5:28 pm
x 701

Re: 2024 NFL Draft

Post by CharVike »

VikingLord wrote: Fri Mar 29, 2024 12:35 pm
CharVike wrote: Fri Mar 29, 2024 9:58 am I looked at JJM and Penix worst games just to see what they looked like when things fell. JJM was terrible against Bowling Green and the only thing that saved him was being a 40 point favorite which is a joke. In this game BG got a ton of pressure on JJM with some plays guys running free at him. He'll get that with us. He didn't handle it at all. Some plays he couldn't escape and took huge loss sacks. He needs to throw it away. He missed a guy wide open for and easy long TD because he threw a lazer and over shot him. Zero loft on the ball. He had under throws and over throws Still an easy win. Michigan has a nice TE Loveland who is only 19 YO. He moves like a WR and can stretch for the ball. Long arms.
For Penix it was AZ state. Talk about throwing the ball all over the place. Most balls sailed high. Plus his delivery looked weird. and had balls batted at the LOS. Looks like he throws with a 3/4 arm angle. Never fully extended. Threw the same sideline dump off to both sides of the field many times. They won on an 80+ yard interception return. Penix committed four turnovers -- two interceptions and two fumbles -- while accounting for zero touchdowns against an Arizona State defense that allows more than 28 points per game. He also hit on 27 of his 42 pass attempts, which stands as his second-worst completion rate of the season.Oct 22, 2023. In the end it's talk how Penix can't handle pressure which is true but JJM don't handle it very well either at times. Pressure gets them all.
Watching the highlights is good but the bad games show flaws and what caused them. The position is extremely hard and every QB has bad games. It don't take much to be off. JJM got himself on track some but that wasn't even a game it was a live practice session. Penix never got on track but he was playing in a real game which makes it tougher. Based on those 2 games I don't see how either can be considered a 1st rounder. But that's the NFL. Every needed team is looking for the quick fix. There's no quick fix. The Bears might have the guy but they have been building for 3 years now under Poles and he has made some nice moves like getting the 1st pick this year. Being thrown in day 1 it might look ugly for Caleb. Looking for the quick fix is the wrong approach. We've been caught in that for decades. I expect 41 YO Farve wait I mean Rodgers in camp next year. History repeats itself again.
Farve saved Chilly after his overdraft by rounds of TJack. KOC might need a guy to save him from ????.
Worst games are interesting to look at, but again, they don't tell the whole story because other factors could be at play.

For example, if the game you watched where Penix's throwing motion seemed off, maybe he was playing injured? I had heard he toughed out a portion of the season with a nagging injury. Maybe that affected his throwing motion in that game?

As for McCarthy's worst game, I think that underscores how young and relatively inexperienced he is. He's more of a true unknown heading into this draft, especially since he played QB on a very strong team and wasn't asked to be the difference-maker. McCarthy has Tim Tebow vibes to me. Great guy. Lots of character and leadership skills. Had success in a strong college program. But what stood out about Tebow was how rarely he made great plays. He was a great guy, but he lacked anything that truly differentiated him as a QB in terms of production and more importantly, his potential to develop beyond what he was as a college QB.

A guy who lacks those skills isn't doomed to failure as a pro. In fact, many guys like that go on to have decent careers. But they're not generally going to carry their respective teams to great heights. If they do succeed, more often than not it's because they're part of a great overall team, and so few of these highly drafted QBs end up on such teams. Much more physically gifted players have succumbed to the fate of being thrust into the limelight straight out of the gate.

The Vikings are honestly one of the best setups this year for a highly drafted rookie QB to find himself in. Darnold's presence means there is no immediate pressure to be a savior on a team in transition, but there is also still a real opportunity there to win the job if merited. Former NFL QB is the head coach and the QB coach is another former NFL QB. Great receivers to throw to and maybe learn from as well. It's more or less an ideal situation. Add the right rookie QB to the mix and it could end very well for everyone involved.
I only looked for the sake of looking. In the AZ st game this year they did mention Penix could have been hurt in the chest/rib area. He did play through it. That will happen in the NFL. We are close to the Bears. Matter of fact we are about equal. They have some things over us and we have some things over them. But your right the situation is very good. Nothing is perfect but I do think our IOL could cause problems. That's starts with the run game first because that is what KOC would like. Run then PA after it. That's the trend in today's world. I'm starting to like Maye the most. He was the one guy who could take Caleb's spot before this media mess started. He's got all the physical tools. Yes it goes far beyond just that. But I think his upside is great.
User avatar
VikingsVictorious
Hall of Fame Inductee
Posts: 4074
Joined: Sat May 04, 2019 7:27 pm
x 736

Re: 2024 NFL Draft

Post by VikingsVictorious »

Penix has an odd throwing motion always has. He and Maye have the biggest arms of the group. Both legit Cannons.
CharVike
Hall of Fame Candidate
Posts: 3517
Joined: Sun Jan 20, 2019 5:28 pm
x 701

Re: 2024 NFL Draft

Post by CharVike »

VikingsVictorious wrote: Fri Mar 29, 2024 1:38 pm Penix has an odd throwing motion always has. He and Maye have the biggest arms of the group. Both legit Cannons.
Do you think that motion could lead to more passes getting batted down or chipped? Throwing from the top seems to be the way to go but that isn't always an option. I did see Maye make a left handed throw down by the goal line. Looked like a Mullens duck. His was adlib Mullens was the real effort.
User avatar
VikingLord
Hall of Famer
Posts: 8253
Joined: Wed Sep 03, 2003 3:12 pm
Location: The Land of the Ice and Snow
x 948

Re: 2024 NFL Draft

Post by VikingLord »

CharVike wrote: Fri Mar 29, 2024 2:11 pm
VikingsVictorious wrote: Fri Mar 29, 2024 1:38 pm Penix has an odd throwing motion always has. He and Maye have the biggest arms of the group. Both legit Cannons.
Do you think that motion could lead to more passes getting batted down or chipped? Throwing from the top seems to be the way to go but that isn't always an option. I did see Maye make a left handed throw down by the goal line. Looked like a Mullens duck. His was adlib Mullens was the real effort.
I think what leads to Penix getting passes batted or chipped is more likely that he feels he can fit the ball into very tight windows, especially on shorter passes. His throwing motion is odd in that it is really quick. Almost no windup and the ball is out of his hands. And that is true whether he's firing off a quick hitter or launching it 50 or more yards down the field.

I don't have any problem with Penix's throwing motion. If there is anything Penix needs to work on it's probably being a little more judicious with the ball. He will fire it almost anywhere he feels he can see even a tiny window. I could see that being an issue in the pros where some defensive alignments are designed to bait QBs into exactly those kinds of throws and some defensive backs are actually capable of closing off those windows even on well-thrown balls if the timing or trajectory of the pass isn't absolutely perfect.

Confidence in a QB is a good thing, but overconfidence is not. Luckily, I think this is something KOC and McCown could coach him on. If Penix has to learn anything, it is to take the safe throw when the difficult throw is not there, especially when under pressure. Not coach him to shrink from pressure or avoid taking chances, but just understanding the situations where chances are warranted and the situations where the safer throw is the better choice.
User avatar
VikingsVictorious
Hall of Fame Inductee
Posts: 4074
Joined: Sat May 04, 2019 7:27 pm
x 736

Re: 2024 NFL Draft

Post by VikingsVictorious »

CharVike wrote: Fri Mar 29, 2024 2:11 pm
VikingsVictorious wrote: Fri Mar 29, 2024 1:38 pm Penix has an odd throwing motion always has. He and Maye have the biggest arms of the group. Both legit Cannons.
Do you think that motion could lead to more passes getting batted down or chipped? Throwing from the top seems to be the way to go but that isn't always an option. I did see Maye make a left handed throw down by the goal line. Looked like a Mullens duck. His was adlib Mullens was the real effort.
Some people are concerned with that. It wasn't a problem in college.
User avatar
IIsweet
Pro Bowl Elite Player
Posts: 918
Joined: Sun Dec 29, 2013 11:02 pm
x 169

Re: 2024 NFL Draft

Post by IIsweet »

Amazing how a great Pro day has everyone changing their tones.
Even Jim Miller and Pat Kirwan had the Vikings not trading up today, but actually down from11 to 13. Then again to 15. Here, after acquiring 2 3rds, they drafted Penix and people are thrilled. Btw, took Cooper Dejean at 23.
As far as Penix throwing motion concerns, would you have taken Phillip Rivers for all those years ? ummmmm a perennial Pro Bowl QB... Yes !!!
Honestly, who knows how good these guys will be. I look at as a future Viking, this is my take:
The one I don't want is Caleb Williams. To me, he's Russell Wilson, but taller. I know, he, Wilson, won a SB and was an MVP candidate for years. Russell was also not liked by teammates. CW is too prima Donna to me. NFL doesn't Kiss Your A$$ like colleges do.
Drake Maye, could be Josh Allen or Andrew Luck, but could also be Ryan Leaf, imo. All the physical tools, but what did UNC win? Most similar to KOC and maybe his favorite.
Jayden Daniels, I am a huge fan. I think he's an athletic Joe Burrow. He's my #1 guy. Been a fan for a few years. Can KOC and McCown coach an athletic QB? They weren't.
JJM, I am ho hum on. He has measurables. Has a rocket. Can run. He is a winner. Unfortunately, I do not get excited, why? Dunno.... I would be happy to have him, but to me he's an athletic Kirk Cousins. That would be awesome though.... Right?
Bo Nix is a taller Drew Brees to me. Who wouldn't want that? Could he be Bailey Zappe?

I know...
Honestly, think that all 6 could be great in Minnesota. Great draft for QB.
CharVike
Hall of Fame Candidate
Posts: 3517
Joined: Sun Jan 20, 2019 5:28 pm
x 701

Re: 2024 NFL Draft

Post by CharVike »

CharVike
Hall of Fame Candidate
Posts: 3517
Joined: Sun Jan 20, 2019 5:28 pm
x 701

Re: 2024 NFL Draft

Post by CharVike »

IIsweet wrote: Fri Mar 29, 2024 8:49 pm Amazing how a great Pro day has everyone changing their tones.
Even Jim Miller and Pat Kirwan had the Vikings not trading up today, but actually down from11 to 13. Then again to 15. Here, after acquiring 2 3rds, they drafted Penix and people are thrilled. Btw, took Cooper Dejean at 23.
As far as Penix throwing motion concerns, would you have taken Phillip Rivers for all those years ? ummmmm a perennial Pro Bowl QB... Yes !!!
Honestly, who knows how good these guys will be. I look at as a future Viking, this is my take:
The one I don't want is Caleb Williams. To me, he's Russell Wilson, but taller. I know, he, Wilson, won a SB and was an MVP candidate for years. Russell was also not liked by teammates. CW is too prima Donna to me. NFL doesn't Kiss Your A$$ like colleges do.
Drake Maye, could be Josh Allen or Andrew Luck, but could also be Ryan Leaf, imo. All the physical tools, but what did UNC win? Most similar to KOC and maybe his favorite.
Jayden Daniels, I am a huge fan. I think he's an athletic Joe Burrow. He's my #1 guy. Been a fan for a few years. Can KOC and McCown coach an athletic QB? They weren't.
JJM, I am ho hum on. He has measurables. Has a rocket. Can run. He is a winner. Unfortunately, I do not get excited, why? Dunno.... I would be happy to have him, but to me he's an athletic Kirk Cousins. That would be awesome though.... Right?
Bo Nix is a taller Drew Brees to me. Who wouldn't want that? Could he be Bailey Zappe?

I know...
Honestly, think that all 6 could be great in Minnesota. Great draft for QB.
You don't see too many drafts like this and it's legit. There are others that don't even get mentioned. M Pratt from Tulane is a nice development guy. Mark Gronowski SD state. Excellent size ect... another later round guy. I like us to grab one of them. The guys behind Darnold can and should be replaced. To many flaws especially that no arm Mullens. Competition makes players better our bye bye. Teams are scrambling like hell. That tells the story.
User avatar
Maelstrom88
All Pro Elite Player
Posts: 1835
Joined: Sat Jan 16, 2016 4:38 am
x 403

Re: 2024 NFL Draft

Post by Maelstrom88 »

The older I get the more I think it comes down to the maturity/work ethic of the QB, health, and his supporting cast and coaching early in his career. I think most guys are better off sitting at least half of their first season. If you're a QB who gets drafted high you have the talent to be successful in the league. It's easy to see if a guy has the arm to play.

Whoever comes in here will have everything they need with the exception of possibly the interior oline. I hope they address that and bring back Risner.
mael·strom

a powerful whirlpool in the sea or a river.

a situation or state of confused movement or violent turmoil.
User avatar
VikingsVictorious
Hall of Fame Inductee
Posts: 4074
Joined: Sat May 04, 2019 7:27 pm
x 736

Re: 2024 NFL Draft

Post by VikingsVictorious »

IIsweet wrote: Fri Mar 29, 2024 8:49 pm Amazing how a great Pro day has everyone changing their tones.
Even Jim Miller and Pat Kirwan had the Vikings not trading up today, but actually down from11 to 13. Then again to 15. Here, after acquiring 2 3rds, they drafted Penix and people are thrilled. Btw, took Cooper Dejean at 23.
As far as Penix throwing motion concerns, would you have taken Phillip Rivers for all those years ? ummmmm a perennial Pro Bowl QB... Yes !!!
Honestly, who knows how good these guys will be. I look at as a future Viking, this is my take:
The one I don't want is Caleb Williams. To me, he's Russell Wilson, but taller. I know, he, Wilson, won a SB and was an MVP candidate for years. Russell was also not liked by teammates. CW is too prima Donna to me. NFL doesn't Kiss Your A$$ like colleges do.
Drake Maye, could be Josh Allen or Andrew Luck, but could also be Ryan Leaf, imo. All the physical tools, but what did UNC win? Most similar to KOC and maybe his favorite.
Jayden Daniels, I am a huge fan. I think he's an athletic Joe Burrow. He's my #1 guy. Been a fan for a few years. Can KOC and McCown coach an athletic QB? They weren't.
JJM, I am ho hum on. He has measurables. Has a rocket. Can run. He is a winner. Unfortunately, I do not get excited, why? Dunno.... I would be happy to have him, but to me he's an athletic Kirk Cousins. That would be awesome though.... Right?
Bo Nix is a taller Drew Brees to me. Who wouldn't want that? Could he be Bailey Zappe?

I know...
Honestly, think that all 6 could be great in Minnesota. Great draft for QB.
I'd be happy with any one of those six. That's why I hate the idea of trading up. Yep Bo might be the next Drew Brees only taller. A more athletic Cousins. Sign me up.
BeforeIDie
Rookie
Posts: 40
Joined: Wed Feb 28, 2024 12:37 am
x 26

Re: 2024 NFL Draft

Post by BeforeIDie »

I think I would be hopeful with any of the “big 6”, remember when it was the “big 4”? Not excited, but hopeful. But I do NOT want to trade up and spend 3 first round picks on a guy that may turn out worse than if we sit and pick to begin with. And that’s always the risk with the draft, everybody brings up Brady going super late blah blah blah. This draft is a special QB draft. This doesn’t feel like a needle in the haystack draft. But it’s also not a clear cut “Andrew luck” or “Trevor Lawrence” golden boy draft. I could see Caleb Williams transitioning TERRIBLY to a grown man’s locker room. And winning will solve all that drama, but when they are on the downside… things will unravel. Williams might miss practice for another summer dress photo shoot.
CharVike
Hall of Fame Candidate
Posts: 3517
Joined: Sun Jan 20, 2019 5:28 pm
x 701

Re: 2024 NFL Draft

Post by CharVike »

VikingsVictorious wrote: Thu Mar 28, 2024 3:59 pm Michael Penix much more athletic than expected at Pro Day. 4.5 40 and 36.5 inch Vert. I don't get why with that athleticism he is considered very immobile as a QB.
Mahomes ran a 4.8 which is not athletic at all. He has a feel for the game that most never have. He feels the pressure somehow and is able to escape or get rid of the ball. He knows where his receivers are. The only test for that is game tape. Penix don't run for yardage so he gets that not athletic badge. He plays within the scheme and tries to go through the progression. That's not easy. He's not a one look and go guy.
User avatar
Maelstrom88
All Pro Elite Player
Posts: 1835
Joined: Sat Jan 16, 2016 4:38 am
x 403

Re: 2024 NFL Draft

Post by Maelstrom88 »

Something I can't figure out is why No is rated so much worse than JJ. Bo has bad film early before the transfer and he's older but both are supposed to have good but not elite arms.
mael·strom

a powerful whirlpool in the sea or a river.

a situation or state of confused movement or violent turmoil.
CharVike
Hall of Fame Candidate
Posts: 3517
Joined: Sun Jan 20, 2019 5:28 pm
x 701

Re: 2024 NFL Draft

Post by CharVike »

Maelstrom88 wrote: Sun Mar 31, 2024 8:03 am Something I can't figure out is why No is rated so much worse than JJ. Bo has bad film early before the transfer and he's older but both are supposed to have good but not elite arms.
It's hard to figure any of this out. You can find negatives on any prospect. This site has some interesting takes on some of the top prospects. Caleb is clearly the top guy and one of the best to come out in sometime. He's rated as a top 5 pick. Then Maye as a top 10 pick. He sees Nix as a game manager. A 3rd round grade. I found this in the article to be almost shocking for a possible No 2 pick about Jayden.
He scrambles at a historically high rate whether the pocket is clean or not and he doesn’t scramble to throw as he attempted a pass on just 78.5% of his career dropbacks. He and Malik Willis are the only quarterbacks since 2017 to attempt a pass on less than 80% of their dropbacks. That's a scramble to run versus scramble to throw. Do you want that? I wouldn't. He has JJ going to us.
https://withthefirstpick.com/posts/2024 ... ht2ryf53mf
Last edited by CharVike on Sun Mar 31, 2024 9:15 am, edited 1 time in total.
User avatar
VikingsVictorious
Hall of Fame Inductee
Posts: 4074
Joined: Sat May 04, 2019 7:27 pm
x 736

Re: 2024 NFL Draft

Post by VikingsVictorious »

Maelstrom88 wrote: Sun Mar 31, 2024 8:03 am Something I can't figure out is why No is rated so much worse than JJ. Bo has bad film early before the transfer and he's older but both are supposed to have good but not elite arms.
JJ has a cannon arm, quick release, good accuracy, good to great athleticism and in a small comparative sample size comes up big in pressure situations. That's a lot to like and I have him 3 on my personal QB board.
Nix has a strong arm, great accuracy, good to great athleticism and pretty good under pressure. I have him at 4 on my personal QB board.
What IMO gives McCarthy a big advantage on Nix is age. 3 years IIRC. How good will they both be 3 years from now.