2024 Free Agents

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VikingsVictorious
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Re: 2024 Free Agents

Post by VikingsVictorious »

Angels Wings wrote: Tue Mar 12, 2024 1:49 pm
Alaskan wrote: Tue Mar 12, 2024 12:54 pm

Are 1st and 2nd rounders really that valuable if you don’t have the Priority 1 missing piece to the puzzle? Quality coaching, tenure of said coaching staff, continuity in the system’s put in place by the coaching staff and drafting and signing FA players that fit those systems are far more important than draft position IMO. A little research on the analytics of draft bust rates will show you that. It’s not to say that 1st and 2nds aren’t more valuable than 6th’s and 7ths, but as it relates to getting your franchise QB it is a no brainer. If you think you have your guy in this draft……go get him! Don’t settle. What have they got to lose by not going after him? More mediocrity?……..because that’s where this franchise has been stuck
I'm also old enough to remember the Herschell Walker trade, the Ricky Williams trade and as recently as the Bryce Young trade which now has the Bears with another #1 pick. Someone even mentioned JJ AND picks; what?!!!!
I'm 100% with you on this. Our first round pick next year is likely to be top 5. We should not be giving it up.
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Re: 2024 Free Agents

Post by VikingsVictorious »

fiestavike wrote: Tue Mar 12, 2024 2:02 pm Expect this year's 1st round selection to be the last 1st round selection the vikings will have until 2027 or 2028.

I understand the hesitation, but the Vikings are competing for exactly bupkis over the next several years on their current trajectory. they can keep their assets and tank away this season, or they can make a move now and give themselves a window that they are building toward in 4-5 years. There was also a case to be made for keeping Cousins but that ship has sailed.

I think if they don't make a move at this point KOC and Kwesi are on the hot seat next year. They might not even get to make the pick their tanking earned them the right to make.

Don't be shocked when they give up the farm to get Daniel's of Nix or whoever they like at 2 or 3, which buys them both 2-3 years to see it all through.
Just pick one at 11. No need to trade up for somebody you can get at 11.
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Re: 2024 Free Agents

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VikingLord wrote: Tue Mar 12, 2024 3:00 pm
Cliff wrote: Tue Mar 12, 2024 11:36 am

There's no way they drop 4 1st rounders.
Agree. Giving Cousins the deal Atlanta gave him would be far cheaper than giving up essentially the future of the franchise for a wild swing at a QB in this year's draft.

If the Vikings were to do the above even to get Caleb Williams KAM should be fired and sued in a class action lawsuit by fans of the team. It would be absolutely criminal to do that.
Absolutely.
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Re: 2024 Free Agents

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Maelstrom88 wrote: Tue Mar 12, 2024 3:04 pm I think the Vikings should sit tight and draft a defensive player at pick 11. Either that or move down and draft an offensive lineman. I don't value and of the QBs this year highly enough to give up picks or take at 11.
I'm perfectly OK with McCarthy at 11. I'm assuming Williams and Daniel's go 1-2. If McCarthy is gone either trade back for an extra pick or take the BPA and trade back into the first round and get our QB there.
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Re: 2024 Free Agents

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Alaskan wrote: Tue Mar 12, 2024 3:48 pm
VikingLord wrote: Tue Mar 12, 2024 3:00 pm

Agree. Giving Cousins the deal Atlanta gave him would be far cheaper than giving up essentially the future of the franchise for a wild swing at a QB in this year's draft.

If the Vikings were to do the above even to get Caleb Williams KAM should be fired and sued in a class action lawsuit by fans of the team. It would be absolutely criminal to do that.
I guess I don’t follow that train of thought. If you look back at the Vikings last 20 first and second rounders. Pick the best 6 and then tell me you wouldn’t give them up to have a franchise QB for the next 10-15 years Personally, I am in the fandom of this team for a championship and/or a dynasty at this point. To ME anything less we might as well win zero games. That’s my train of thought. I am tired of all the patched together mediocre teams the Vikings consistently put out there. Without the franchise guy, the chances of winning a championship are near zero, and that is a fact.
Factor in the chances of getting a franchise QB by trading up are only a tiny percentage better than getting a franchise QB at 11 and trading up is ridiculous.
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Re: 2024 Free Agents

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Alaskan wrote: Tue Mar 12, 2024 5:39 pm
makila wrote: Tue Mar 12, 2024 5:36 pm

I'd frame it this way, it isn't "a franchise qb". It's the opportunity to try and swing for one. Absolutely no guarantee.

They miss and I suspect most fans would be livid in that scenario. And they lose their jobs.

It's about how confident THEY are if they think they can get a franchise qb.
Agreed. They are in a great position to take a swing. If they miss, they get fired. I get the sense they feel like they have found their guy. Never gonna know unless you take the swing…….
There is no Elway or Luck in this draft.
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Re: 2024 Free Agents

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fiestavike wrote: Tue Mar 12, 2024 5:49 pm
makila wrote: Tue Mar 12, 2024 5:36 pm

I'd frame it this way, it isn't "a franchise qb". It's the opportunity to try and swing for one. Absolutely no guarantee.

They miss and I suspect most fans would be livid in that scenario. And they lose their jobs.

It's about how confident THEY are if they think they can get a franchise qb.
It's not really that big of a risk.

If they don't draft a franchise qb they aren't winning a championship and they will soon be fired.

If they risk it all and select a qb who is a dud they aren't winning a championship and they will soon be fired.

The only way they keep their jobs at this point is by taking the swing, especially after now letting Kirk walk. Fans might be bummed, but the viking will either trade the farm to get their guy around 2-3 or reach at 11 for whatever is left.
The QBs available at 11 could easily be as good as the QBs available at 3.
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Re: 2024 Free Agents

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allday1991 wrote: Tue Mar 12, 2024 5:53 pm :whistle:
makila wrote: Tue Mar 12, 2024 5:36 pm

I'd frame it this way, it isn't "a franchise qb". It's the opportunity to try and swing for one. Absolutely no guarantee.

They miss and I suspect most fans would be livid in that scenario. And they lose their jobs.

It's about how confident THEY are if they think they can get a franchise qb.
To play devils advocate if qb is a position of need and a gm doesn’t take a swing and draft a qb, and then some of those QBs turn out to be good would be enough to get you fired as well as a gm. You neglected the most important position cause you were scared of losing your job and another team got him. That would be bye bye imo.

How many QBs does a gm usually get to draft before they lose their job? May as well make it a good one.
This trade up for the QB no matter the cost thinking is crazy. How about Jefferson, Addison, Darrisaw and our next 10 FRPs. Ridiculous right. 4 FRPs is way too much. We've got a great chance to get a franchise qb at 11 and if we don't get him this year we will have a top 5 pick next year.
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Re: 2024 Free Agents

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makila wrote: Tue Mar 12, 2024 6:30 pm
fiestavike wrote: Tue Mar 12, 2024 5:49 pm

It's not really that big of a risk.

If they don't draft a franchise qb they aren't winning a championship and they will soon be fired.

If they risk it all and select a qb who is a dud they aren't winning a championship and they will soon be fired.

The only way they keep their jobs at this point is by taking the swing, especially after now letting Kirk walk. Fans might be bummed, but the viking will either trade the farm to get their guy around 2-3 or reach at 11 for whatever is left.
Out of curiosity, if trading away four first round picks, for the chance to draft a college player, isn't really a risk why don't we see that more often?

And who has it worked out for in the past?
Worked out great for Carolina last year.
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Re: 2024 Free Agents

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CharVike wrote: Wed Mar 13, 2024 6:29 am
fiestavike wrote: Tue Mar 12, 2024 7:15 pm The game has changed. It might as well be called QB ball, not football. A great QB is worth more to a team than all the rest of their players combined.
It's always been like that. If you have nothing at QB your done. Look at that crap we fielded after Cousins was hurt. We couldn't score and it was an embarrassment. Not even worth watching that BS. Our team never would have went to those SB if we didn't get Fran back. We wasted better teams in 70 and 71 because nothing at QB. But picking a QB top 5 gets fans excited. They think that's all you need. We have a top 5 now this year in Darnold. He can't throw an accurate ball. Useless.
Exactly. Chances of us getting a franchise QB at three is only slightly better than at 11. Certainly not worth us giving up our likely top 5 pick in next years draft.
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Re: 2024 Free Agents

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CharVike wrote: Wed Mar 13, 2024 7:19 am
Cliff wrote: Tue Mar 12, 2024 8:04 am Screenshot_20240312_090349.jpg
If they are tanking why sign this guy? He's basically finished. What's wrong with Chandler or the guy they drafted last year or the eventual pick this year. They are moving in every direction. That tells me there is no overall plan in place.
Jones is very good. Not finished at all.
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Re: 2024 Free Agents

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Cliff wrote: Wed Mar 13, 2024 9:57 am
VikingsVictorious wrote: Wed Mar 13, 2024 9:55 am
That is the likely cost to move up to 2.
If it is they won't pay it.
I agree. I just hope we don't trade 3 FRPs to move up to 3.
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Re: 2024 Free Agents

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Anyone know anything about the K we signed? Soccer player?
I'd rather have a bottle in front of me than a frontal lobotomy.
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Re: 2024 Free Agents

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Alaskan wrote: Tue Mar 12, 2024 3:48 pm
VikingLord wrote: Tue Mar 12, 2024 3:00 pm

Agree. Giving Cousins the deal Atlanta gave him would be far cheaper than giving up essentially the future of the franchise for a wild swing at a QB in this year's draft.

If the Vikings were to do the above even to get Caleb Williams KAM should be fired and sued in a class action lawsuit by fans of the team. It would be absolutely criminal to do that.
I guess I don’t follow that train of thought. If you look back at the Vikings last 20 first and second rounders. Pick the best 6 and then tell me you wouldn’t give them up to have a franchise QB for the next 10-15 years
What franchise QBs taken in the last 20 drafts would merit the type of trade you suggest, though? Are we talking the best of the best from that group of QBs? If so, maybe. However, it is equally important to note from whatever list of QBs you come up with where those QBs ended up being drafted in the years they came out. I can't think of a #1 QB taken in recent memory who ended up being the clear franchise QB for his team (maybe Andrew Luck?), and even among the guys who ended up joining your list, how many of those have gone on to win or even compete in a Superbowl?
Alaskan wrote: Tue Mar 12, 2024 3:48 pm Personally, I am in the fandom of this team for a championship and/or a dynasty at this point.
Are you saying there is a group of Vikings fans whose hope and dreams for this team is less than a championship, much less a dynasty? Do you think their suggestion that selling the future of the team for a wild, desperate swing at a QB prospect who is likely grossly over-valued is wrong for that reason alone?

After reading what you wrote above, I think you are even farther off the mark with what you're suggesting than I first believed. My first take was that you simply felt very strongly that a QB in this year's draft was as close to a can't-miss prospect as you have seen and is very likely to become the next great NFL QB. But it seems like what you're saying is more akin to the gambler who is just breaking even and decides to push all his chips onto the table in a desperate bid to change his fortunes. Could it work? Sure. Is it likely to work? Absolutely not.

Tell me who the next franchise QB is in this year's draft. Who merits the kind of move you are suggesting based on what is known about that player?

And while you're at it, tell me what QB(s) in the last 5 drafts would have merited that same type of compensation for the team that ended up drafting them?

A calculated, well-informed move up to get the right player at QB *might* be worth selling off the next 5 drafts for. Unfortunately, it is much, much harder to pull off in practice than in theory, and there is more than ample evidence to suggest it would be nothing more than a wild, desperate move that could seriously degrade the team's chances to compete for the next half a decade or more.
Alaskan wrote: Tue Mar 12, 2024 3:48 pm I am tired of all the patched together mediocre teams the Vikings consistently put out there. Without the franchise guy, the chances of winning a championship are near zero, and that is a fact.
I think we can agree on that point. I think everyone here is tired of it.

Where we differ is what moves are likely to address it and position the team to win that championship.

Hey, on the bright side at least Cousins bailed on them so they're forced now to make a move. The question becomes, what will that move be?

I'm willing to informally bet it won't be the move you suggested. On the flip side, however, it could be a slightly less damaging trade up to 5-6 to select a guy who they likely could have had sitting tight at 11 (which I think Victorious already pointed out and which I unfortunately agree with him there is a high chance they do). If they do that I think they're pulling a "Ponder Plus" error. When Spielman drafted Ponder in the first round, he was also desperate for a long term solution at QB and so made a big reach and took a guy who honestly merited a 3-4 round grade. He spent a precious 1st round pick on a mid prospect and the result was predictable and damaging as that 1st rounder was effectively wasted, but it wasn't more damaging than the loss of that 1st rounder and a few seasons spent hoping Ponder would develop. If KAM trades up, however, he'll by definition have to give up additional high picks in future year(s) to do so, and again it would most likely be to target a guy like JJ McCarthy who, like Ponder, merits at the highest a 2nd round grade and more likely a 3rd round grade just based on what is known about him to this point.

So it would still be a wild swing borne of desperation, but potentially an even more costly one than what Spielman did with Ponder. I really hope KAM avoids that temptation and, if he holds at #11, takes a player who has demonstrated his ability and effectiveness instead of just potential regardless of the position he plays. And if he trades back a bit, he gets not only adequate compensation from his trade partner but also focuses on best player available and doesn't reach for a position of need instead.

The Vikings are in a tough spot at QB no doubt. But if KAM is as smart as they say he is and KOC is as astute at evaluating QB talent as he should be having formerly played the position as a pro, both will know mere hope is not a solution, and a lot more goes into finding a franchise QB than pre-draft hype around players in any given year.
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Re: 2024 Free Agents

Post by VikingLord »

VikingsVictorious wrote: Wed Mar 13, 2024 10:16 am
Maelstrom88 wrote: Tue Mar 12, 2024 3:04 pm I think the Vikings should sit tight and draft a defensive player at pick 11. Either that or move down and draft an offensive lineman. I don't value and of the QBs this year highly enough to give up picks or take at 11.
I'm perfectly OK with McCarthy at 11. I'm assuming Williams and Daniel's go 1-2. If McCarthy is gone either trade back for an extra pick or take the BPA and trade back into the first round and get our QB there.
I think it's too high for McCarthy on an objective basis, especially given the DE and DB talent likely to be available at that pick. The only reason any QB not named Caleb Williams is talked about as a 1st round prospect in this year's draft is because so many teams are so desperate at the position and believe they can somehow develop a player in a situation that almost demands an immediate return on investment and the immediate pressure that goes along with that. That's one of the reasons I said Penix is likely to become a regular starter from this year's QB class. He's older and has more experience in college and he's less likely to be under immediate pressure to become a starter and a star on whatever team drafts him. That blast wave of the heat and pressure of a immediately starting on what likely is a crappy team won't be there for him.

Jayden Daniels, Drake Maye, JJ McCarthy, etc., on the other hand, won't be so fortunate. All are younger players who are going to be thrown to the wolves right off the bat depending on the team that takes them. It is a lot to deal with. Forget the physical abilities needed to succeed as pros - making that jump to the types of generally bad, desperate teams that usually draft those QBs is by far the greatest hurdle they have to overcome, and few are able to do that.

At least with Darnold on the team if the Vikings do draft McCarthy hopefully he'd have some time to sit and learn and adjust before being thrown out there.