Vikings at Bengals

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CharVike
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Re: Vikings at Bengals

Post by CharVike »

cmoss84 wrote: Mon Dec 18, 2023 12:23 pm If we win out, and Lions lose in Dallas, do we win the division?
I think we do based on head to head competition. We would have beaten them twice.
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Re: Vikings at Bengals

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CharVike wrote: Sun Dec 17, 2023 8:27 pm
JJBreaksRecords wrote: Sun Dec 17, 2023 5:56 pm The worst part was Flores failing with his prevent D, and having NO idea how to adjust to that, and them scoring 3 plays in the 4th quarter. A complete meltdown of the Defense.

Can someone tell me why they like KO? And why does it matter that you like him. What does he do that a good HC does. Being hard headed is NOT a good thing for an HC to be.
Did you think Flores was going to shut them out? The Bengals have players also. Higgins won the battle on that TD grab. He's not some stiff. Our guy was right there and got beat. Pace couldn't make a tackle but was right there on that 4th down TD. You call that Flores fault? KOC has the players playing together as a team. They bust their a$$ for him. I like his offensive scheme. It's a downfield passing attack. In today's world your a stupid team if your not attacking down the field. Any good team attacks down the field. It's better than Zims pound the rock BS. What is hard headed. Please he tried to help Dobbs but he sucks. Teams forced him to stay and pass. He can't do that. This isn't college and some veer option BS. We don't have the players for that.
You dont think giving up 3 TDs in the 4th quarter is a complete meltdown and lack of adjustments? You and I have completely different views on what a meltdown is. In previous games Flores did the same thing, kept using his prevent D when the opposing teams figured out his D. Maybe a little homerism and you could see these things.
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Re: Vikings at Bengals

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JJBreaksRecords wrote: Mon Dec 18, 2023 3:05 pm
CharVike wrote: Sun Dec 17, 2023 8:27 pm
Did you think Flores was going to shut them out? The Bengals have players also. Higgins won the battle on that TD grab. He's not some stiff. Our guy was right there and got beat. Pace couldn't make a tackle but was right there on that 4th down TD. You call that Flores fault? KOC has the players playing together as a team. They bust their a$$ for him. I like his offensive scheme. It's a downfield passing attack. In today's world your a stupid team if your not attacking down the field. Any good team attacks down the field. It's better than Zims pound the rock BS. What is hard headed. Please he tried to help Dobbs but he sucks. Teams forced him to stay and pass. He can't do that. This isn't college and some veer option BS. We don't have the players for that.
You dont think giving up 3 TDs in the 4th quarter is a complete meltdown and lack of adjustments? You and I have completely different views on what a meltdown is. In previous games Flores did the same thing, kept using his prevent D when the opposing teams figured out his D. Maybe a little homerism and you could see these things.
It was a meltdown. We got lucky in the 1st half when a WR was wide open deep and the pass was long. That should have been a TD for them. I still think Flores has done a good job this year with the group of players he has. No more than that.
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Re: Vikings at Bengals

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VikingLord wrote: Mon Dec 18, 2023 11:44 am Disappointing loss, but one that was well-earned by the Vikings IMHO.

- First, Nick Mullens is not the answer at QB. He's no better than Dobbs IMHO. He might be a slightly more accurate passer, but he's a first-read QB who still struggles with timing and ball placement and who lacks any ability to escape pressure. There were several times where Mullens couldn't hit his first read and simply panicked. Reminded me of the Christian Ponder days. The second "interception" where he was going to the ground and still chose to try throwing the ball away literally into the facemask of the defender dragging him down was simply stunning. You can't tell me Jaren Hall could possibly be worse than that. I know KOC wants to make the playoffs, but I don't think Mullens gives him any better chance of doing that than Dobbs gave him. He should give Hall a chance. Hall might actually be better (not saying he will be, but we don't know until we see him get more chances), and at the very least KOC and KAM will know what they have in Hall heading into this offseason where they will have some decisions to make about how to proceed at the QB position.

- Second, the defense, specifically, the defensive secondary. I give the Bengals credit for playing some amazing chuck-and-duck with Higgins going up to take the candy (ball) away from the babies in the Vikings secondary, but come on... I mean, what was Blackmon(?) doing on that last Bengals TD to Higgins? Standing there watching as the guy came down with it and then extended it out to get the TD. Unreal. If he wants to watch he should buy a seat in the stands. Play to the whistle. Your job is to go plow any opposition player with the ball in his hands until you hear a whistle. Granted, that ball shouldn't have been caught in the first place, but these are the Vikings DBs we're talking about. Apparently they all have to "get their weight up". Higgins flat-out embarrassed them.

- Third, the offense can't convert on 3rd-and-inches AND 4th-and-inches? I mean, really, if you can't get 2 inches on two consecutive plays you really should just concede the game. We can debate the particular play calls there or the play design (I agreed with the announcers that it was puzzling to have Brandon Powell as the pusher on those plays), but you HAVE to get those two inches. Mullens has to find a way to get those inches. KOC has to find a way. Someone has to take responsibility and find a way. You get up and go quick or you do something that throws the defense off but you get them. For that failure alone, they deserved to lose that game and the rest of them this year as well. Pathetic in every respect.

This season has been such a typical Vikings season. I know a lot of you support and like KOC but tell me how he's materially different in terms of on-field results than any other Vikings head coach in the last 20 or so years. I just don't see it. Last year was an aberration of good fortune that ended quickly to a very subpar team in the playoffs. It wasn't the sign of a master strategist who engineered innovative gameplans to exploit the weaknesses of his opponents. And this year has been more of the typical Vikings "almost" seasonal slog that has characterized most of this team's existence. Just good enough, but not good enough, average team that plows through the season without a clear identity or a defined plan for the future. And everything is setting up for next year to be the same. Hey, but at least everyone supports everyone else, right? We can all be happy about that as the team heads into yet another offseason in the same spot in the draft and with more huge question marks at a lot of key positions while leadership insists on remaining "competitive", whatever that means.
Mullens isn't a very good QB. He has a noodle arm which will allow the defenses to jump his routes. When he needs to throw to the sidelines he looks awkward because he has to put everything into it just to get the ball there. Looks like he's throwing a shot put not a football. But Dobbs is another Joe Webb. He couldn't even get us a lead during a shut out game. That Monday fiasco was simply embarrassing for him. It was an unwatchable game. The casual fans hated it. The networks hated it. Unable to hit a wide open Addison with nothing but green in front was a joke. He gave us a couple games which is all any fan could ask. He made Addison disappear. At least with Mullins there is a chance of scoring. He will never look great and will make stupid mistakes. No confidence. That throw away attempt is something a pro should never do. That Bengal game was tough but I think it was entertaining. I was able to stay awake. The loss hurt but the hurt wasn't as bad as that Bear game. Once Mullen gets knocked out or we get eliminated we will get to see Hall. But the guy is 6 feet with a weak arm. Unable to drive the ball down the field. He throws long floaters. That don't sound good to me but who knows. The spot in the draft matters but the ability to pick a player is the most important. There are good players all through the draft.
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Re: Vikings at Bengals

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Its become clear in the last 3 losses that Flores/KOC are 4th quarter cowards. They keep retreating into a prevent shell when they are nursing a lead. Its idiocy. We dont have the front line to pressure the opponent with a straight pass rush. Thats why Flores has had success this year blitzing more frequently then the rest of the league. As soon as he stops blitzing, our opponent gets too much time and exposes the fact that our secondary is NOT top tier. They cant maintain coverage. Its unlikely we were going anywhere this year with our revolving door at QB and poor front lines but its even worse to see weak leadership when it counts and we are just playing to win a football game. Imagine how panicked and overly conservative KOC/Flores will get if we did manage to stumble into the post season!
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Re: Vikings at Bengals

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CharVike wrote: Tue Dec 19, 2023 9:48 am Once Mullen gets knocked out or we get eliminated we will get to see Hall. But the guy is 6 feet with a weak arm. Unable to drive the ball down the field. He throws long floaters. That don't sound good to me but who knows. The spot in the draft matters but the ability to pick a player is the most important. There are good players all through the draft.
For the record I doubt Hall is the answer at QB either, but KOC should at least give himself the chance to know that heading into the offseason rather than guess at it.

Also for the record, I get a bad vibe that the Vikings are going to sign Cousins this offseason provided he's healthy. I can just see that happening... :wallbang:
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Re: Vikings at Bengals

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I agree. I think the Wilfs are still buying into the Kirk Cousins wagon. We already over paid once for him and failed. I think they are going to reup his contract. The rest of the league has always known he is flawed, a pure pocket passer that will never get you to a championship, so there isnt likely to be alot of competing big bids for his contract. The frustration train will just keep barreling along the road to nowhere.
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Re: Vikings at Bengals

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VikingLord wrote: Tue Dec 19, 2023 11:46 am
CharVike wrote: Tue Dec 19, 2023 9:48 am Once Mullen gets knocked out or we get eliminated we will get to see Hall. But the guy is 6 feet with a weak arm. Unable to drive the ball down the field. He throws long floaters. That don't sound good to me but who knows. The spot in the draft matters but the ability to pick a player is the most important. There are good players all through the draft.
For the record I doubt Hall is the answer at QB either, but KOC should at least give himself the chance to know that heading into the offseason rather than guess at it.

Also for the record, I get a bad vibe that the Vikings are going to sign Cousins this offseason provided he's healthy. I can just see that happening... :wallbang:
I hope they do sign him. The guy is in great physical condition and has a strict routine. He's a hard worker and that 's how he overcame his limitations as a prospect. We all like different players which is part of being a fan. If they move on so be it. We have nothing on our roster and the FA pool won't have much either. The draft might produce one guy that will be good. But for once in a long time I was looking forward to this season. Sure we started off bad but teams progress as the season goes on. I like Addison because he is fun as hell to watch. He gets the ball and it's instant excitement. He's a player. Those 2 TD catches he had were great. Different types of plays also. I also like Risner. The guy plays football hard. Even Ingram has improved. There are positives to come away with from this injury filled season. Hall will get in there at some point and who knows? I'm only guessing. The coaches see it everyday.
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Re: Vikings at Bengals

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chicagopurple wrote: Tue Dec 19, 2023 12:30 pm I agree. I think the Wilfs are still buying into the Kirk Cousins wagon. We already over paid once for him and failed. I think they are going to reup his contract. The rest of the league has always known he is flawed, a pure pocket passer that will never get you to a championship, so there isnt likely to be alot of competing big bids for his contract. The frustration train will just keep barreling along the road to nowhere.
How about Davenport. 13 million for nothing. A pocket passer will never get a team to a SB. That's a good one. Stafford, Foles, Jimmy G ect.. you know what those teams had? A very good core. We don't draft well enough. It's that simple. When is Cine going to contribute. Booty? Ect ..
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Re: Vikings at Bengals

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CharVike wrote: Tue Dec 19, 2023 12:49 pm
VikingLord wrote: Tue Dec 19, 2023 11:46 am

For the record I doubt Hall is the answer at QB either, but KOC should at least give himself the chance to know that heading into the offseason rather than guess at it.

Also for the record, I get a bad vibe that the Vikings are going to sign Cousins this offseason provided he's healthy. I can just see that happening... :wallbang:
I hope they do sign him. The guy is in great physical condition and has a strict routine. He's a hard worker and that 's how he overcame his limitations as a prospect.
I agree with you that Cousins is a good player, hard worker, great teammate, etc. He can play the game at a high level and statistically looks like he should be able to get a team into contention. So my issue with Cousins isn't related to any of those things.

My issue with Cousins is his penchant for settling for safety at THE key moments in meaningful games. He is the guy who, when you need a big play or someone to take a risk, chooses to play it safe. He's a lot like KOC in that regard, actually, which is one of the reasons I think the Vikings are going to bring him back next year.

The other point about Cousins is he's never had any post season success. He's been in the league a long time as a starting QB and he's never gotten his teams anywhere significant. Heck, Case Keenum got deeper into the playoffs than Cousins ever has. So has Nick Foles. His mentality (which again, I think KOC shares), is one of fear of losing something he hasn't won yet. As the Patrick Swayze character said in the movie Point Break - "fear causes hesitation, and hesitation will cause your worst fears to become true". That describes Kirk Cousins career in a nutshell. By the end, it will likely describe KOC's career as an NFL head coach as well.
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Re: Vikings at Bengals

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CharVike wrote: Tue Dec 19, 2023 3:32 pm
chicagopurple wrote: Tue Dec 19, 2023 12:30 pm I agree. I think the Wilfs are still buying into the Kirk Cousins wagon. We already over paid once for him and failed. I think they are going to reup his contract. The rest of the league has always known he is flawed, a pure pocket passer that will never get you to a championship, so there isnt likely to be alot of competing big bids for his contract. The frustration train will just keep barreling along the road to nowhere.
How about Davenport. 13 million for nothing. A pocket passer will never get a team to a SB. That's a good one. Stafford, Foles, Jimmy G ect.. you know what those teams had? A very good core. We don't draft well enough. It's that simple. When is Cine going to contribute. Booty? Ect ..
KAM has not drafted well overall. Some of his better picks were undrafted or less heralded guys like Pace that he basically lucked into.

With that said, KOC and KAM can greatly help their futures for next season by at least getting more data points to evaluate the QB situation heading into the offseason. It's not exactly giving up on the season to start Hall given the poor showings from Mullens and Dobbs to this point. Hall might not be any better, but it's hard to believe he would be much worse. It will probably take another 2-3 turnover game by Mullens for KOC to get to that point, though. He's clearly focused on trying to make the playoffs this year, which I understand, but at the same time, no QB not named Cousins currently on the roster has any hope of winning a playoff game this year.
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Re: Vikings at Bengals

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VikingLord wrote: Tue Dec 19, 2023 5:30 pm
CharVike wrote: Tue Dec 19, 2023 12:49 pm
I hope they do sign him. The guy is in great physical condition and has a strict routine. He's a hard worker and that 's how he overcame his limitations as a prospect.
I agree with you that Cousins is a good player, hard worker, great teammate, etc. He can play the game at a high level and statistically looks like he should be able to get a team into contention. So my issue with Cousins isn't related to any of those things.

My issue with Cousins is his penchant for settling for safety at THE key moments in meaningful games. He is the guy who, when you need a big play or someone to take a risk, chooses to play it safe. He's a lot like KOC in that regard, actually, which is one of the reasons I think the Vikings are going to bring him back next year.

The other point about Cousins is he's never had any post season success. He's been in the league a long time as a starting QB and he's never gotten his teams anywhere significant. Heck, Case Keenum got deeper into the playoffs than Cousins ever has. So has Nick Foles. His mentality (which again, I think KOC shares), is one of fear of losing something he hasn't won yet. As the Patrick Swayze character said in the movie Point Break - "fear causes hesitation, and hesitation will cause your worst fears to become true". That describes Kirk Cousins career in a nutshell. By the end, it will likely describe KOC's career as an NFL head coach as well.
I hear your points. Case only made the champ game because of a miracle. Then he played like crap. Cousins won a road playoff game and then got smacked. That team made Rodgers fold Foles got red hot. Don't forget his D only allowed 7 frickin points. His D also scored to cancel that out. Don't you think that helped? I respect your opinion. I'm ok if they move on. Best case is Hall looks great. That could happen also. People say KOC takes no risk. He risked with Dobbs the entire Bear game. Then risked again. He risked too far.
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Re: Vikings at Bengals

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I should be more clear….a pocket passer will get nowhere …..in MN . It has been decades since this organization has prioritized and competently drafted an excellent Ol. It pitiful how far back we need to look until we last had a pro bowl ranked OL. So, no, a pocket passer will never succeed in MN
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Re: Vikings at Bengals

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If they will commit to running the ball with Ty Chandler the vikings will be a dangerous team if they can make the playoffs. They won't be an easy out for anybody.

Flores defense is not going to be the kind that grinds everything to a halt. It's a bunch of misfit toys causing offenses to react and make plays. The number of defenses able to do more than that in the modern era can be counted on one hand. The days of defenses than can play keys and react and grind an opposing offense to a halt are over, guys. It's an offensive game now.

Flores runs a modern NFL defense.
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Re: Vikings at Bengals

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chicagopurple wrote: Tue Dec 19, 2023 7:49 pm I should be more clear….a pocket passer will get nowhere …..in MN . It has been decades since this organization has prioritized and competently drafted an excellent Ol. It pitiful how far back we need to look until we last had a pro bowl ranked OL. So, no, a pocket passer will never succeed in MN
I fully understand you now and thanks for the clarification. The bottom line if you don't have a good OL the chance of making the SB is basically gone. Most teams that get there have very good OLs. The only team I can think of that made it recently was the Bengals with Burrow. There OL wasn't very good. You have been posting about the lines on both sides of the ball. You need to win the LOS battle. These young QBs who get drafted by teams with crap OL are finished before they start. That would happen here also.