Who Starts?

A forum for the hard core Minnesota Vikings fan. Discuss upcoming games, opponents, trades, draft or what ever is on the minds of Viking fans!

Moderator: Moderators

User avatar
VikingLord
Hall of Famer
Posts: 8187
Joined: Wed Sep 03, 2003 3:12 pm
Location: The Land of the Ice and Snow
x 896

Re: Who Starts?

Post by VikingLord »

Cliff wrote: Tue Nov 28, 2023 1:40 pm
J. Kapp 11 wrote: Tue Nov 28, 2023 1:09 pm
Well, last night's game against the Bears has shown me that the Vikings chances of making the playoffs with Dobbs as QB just sank like the Titanic. That was ugly. Four bad picks, panicky decisions, and inaccuracy helped the Bears get their first division in in 13 tries against our Vikings at US Bank Stadium.

If THAT version of Dobbs or anyone else is under center, this could easily turn into a 6-11 season that ends with a 7-game losing streak.
Dobbs had a terrible night, no question, but two of those picks hit the WRs in the hands if I recall. He had finally made pretty passes and the WRs couldn't catch them. Can't really put that on him.

Anyway your main point stands, they won't make the playoffs if that version of Dobbs starts for the Vikings.
Even if they do make the playoffs it's unlikely they will go anywhere once there, and even if they somehow manage to play well early and do end up somewhere significant, I'm almost certain they will find a way to blow it as only the Vikings can.

Once Kirk went out the chances of this turning into a special season went with him. Those chances were already small to begin with, but with so many other teams struggling with QB play and Kirk having a full year in KOC's system under his belt, there was a chance. Dobbs was never the answer. He was a hope and a prayer borne out of desperation. I personally like him and still hope he does well, but he's becoming "KOC-ified" now, defenses have plenty of tape on him with the Vikings, and he really does struggle with accuracy and timely decision-making. I thought that might be a result of his short amount of time with the team, but it seems like a real problem and is likely a reason, if not THE reason, he's bounced around the league so much. Sometimes people are too smart for their own good. They overthink and overanalyze which causes hesitation, and hesitation causes mistakes. Dobbs seems like that type of player and person. Kirk was super-conservative and risk-averse. Dobbs just doesn't trust what he sees and despite how smart he is, doesn't appear to be able to manipulate a defensive secondary very well or take advantage of tells and overly aggressive play in the secondary. Well, I shouldn't say that, because he was taking off and picking up key yards with his legs in the two wins when the defense gave him those opportunities. Now, not so much.

But the real problem with this team's chances of making the playoffs and winning is KOC. His offense lacks something. It might be the players, it might be the playcalling, it might be the failure to execute consistently, but as talented as the offense is, it doesn't seem like they scare anyone. Both Denver and Chicago played up and tight and were on top of everything short. I continue to wonder where the big plays over the top are for this offense. I watch other teams with less heralded players go over the top all the time. Sometimes it works, sometimes it doesn't, but they at least try it a few times per game. KOC's offense and mentality seem rooted in the same mindset that Zimmer had which is every game has to be close, every lead has to be protected rather than exploited - basically slow-and-steady-wins-the-race. Except when it doesn't because your players keep turning it over, dropping catchable balls, or committing inopportune penalties.

Anyway, this team as it stands isn't going anywhere last year's team hasn't already gone, which is, if it manages to make the playoffs at all, will be a first round loss. A close loss most likely, but a loss nonetheless. They'll have a middling first round draft position too, so the chances of getting a QB who might really improve their fortunes is dramatically lower. Not impossible, but not great. And then on top of that there is this ongoing belief that the Vikings aren't really all that far away, that the talent core is there to field a team that can compete for a Superbowl. This on a team with relatively inconsistent line play, spotty secondary play, and that will soon lack an established QB.

This might finally be the year to take the proverbial step backwards to try to take two forwards. The Bears are doing that. They are suffering right now, sure, but they might have the first two picks in the upcoming draft and are loading up on young, talented players on both sides of the ball. In another year or two if the Vikings don't do something substantial I fear we'll be looking up at them as the class of the NFC for several seasons. The Lions are already running away with the North this year. Green Bay is paying the price to try to establish a new QB. If the Vikings aren't willing to retrench a bit, they're going to be pulling up the rear in the North for several seasons to come.
User avatar
halfgiz
Career Elite Player
Posts: 2279
Joined: Thu Nov 07, 2013 11:38 pm
x 105

Re: Who Starts?

Post by halfgiz »

And the question arises, who starts against the Packers?
Will we stick with Mullen’s, Or will Hall get a start?
Me I would just as soon see us lose out and try to draft a decent QB.

It’s been the year of turnovers and injuries.

QB turnovers this year.
Cousins - 9
Dobbs - 8
Mullens - 6
JJBreaksRecords
Pro Bowl Elite Player
Posts: 515
Joined: Tue Jan 18, 2022 10:22 pm
x 71

Re: Who Starts?

Post by JJBreaksRecords »

Well Hall has the least TO's, common sense says he should start.. Wait, we are talking about KO and common sense.
J. Kapp 11
Hall of Famer
Posts: 9769
Joined: Fri Sep 22, 2006 12:57 pm
x 1854

Re: Who Starts?

Post by J. Kapp 11 »

Who was it that said Mullens was a turnover machine and cited 23 career interceptions in 17 career starts?

I don’t usually toot my own horn, but this was just too easy to call. He’s now up to 29 picks in 19 starts. He attempted more passes of 20+ yards in this game than any QB in two years. According to PFF, he had at least EIGHT turnover-worthy plays! Nick Mullens appears to be a guy with a rag arm who fancies himself as a gunslinger.

Honestly, since half the team is down with injuries, I’m not sure it matters who starts against the Pukers. I never want the Vikes to lose, especially to those pretenders, but I’m at the point where I could be consoled with a top 10 pick in the draft.
Image
Go ahead. I dare you.
Underestimate this man.
User avatar
VikingLord
Hall of Famer
Posts: 8187
Joined: Wed Sep 03, 2003 3:12 pm
Location: The Land of the Ice and Snow
x 896

Re: Who Starts?

Post by VikingLord »

J. Kapp 11 wrote: Tue Dec 26, 2023 8:03 pm Who was it that said Mullens was a turnover machine and cited 23 career interceptions in 17 career starts?

I don’t usually toot my own horn, but this was just too easy to call. He’s now up to 29 picks in 19 starts. He attempted more passes of 20+ yards in this game than any QB in two years. According to PFF, he had at least EIGHT turnover-worthy plays! Nick Mullens appears to be a guy with a rag arm who fancies himself as a gunslinger.

Honestly, since half the team is down with injuries, I’m not sure it matters who starts against the Pukers. I never want the Vikes to lose, especially to those pretenders, but I’m at the point where I could be consoled with a top 10 pick in the draft.
You called it Kapp. Why KOC is sticking with him is beyond me. Even if Hall is marginally worse from an experience perspective my guess is he won't turn it over nearly as frequently as Mullens will.
User avatar
VikingLord
Hall of Famer
Posts: 8187
Joined: Wed Sep 03, 2003 3:12 pm
Location: The Land of the Ice and Snow
x 896

Re: Who Starts?

Post by VikingLord »

Heard KOC decided to give Hall the start against the Packers, and while I don't know if Hall is going to be any better than Dobbs or Mullens have been so far, KOC is at least giving himself the chance to properly assess the QB position's future heading into the offseason. Good, forward-looking decision with low risk (hard to believe Hall could do any worse than Dobbs and Mullens have) and high reward (Hall might actually turn out to be good).

If Hall turns out to be not-so-good, KAM and KOC know what they will have to do over the offseason at the QB position, which could include bringing Cousins back for another season and/or drafting a QB in the first or second round.

Whatever they end up doing, at least they'll do it with the data points needed to make an informed decision.

Maybe the future is finally looking at little brighter...
J. Kapp 11
Hall of Famer
Posts: 9769
Joined: Fri Sep 22, 2006 12:57 pm
x 1854

Re: Who Starts?

Post by J. Kapp 11 »

VikingLord wrote: Thu Dec 28, 2023 1:49 pm Heard KOC decided to give Hall the start against the Packers, and while I don't know if Hall is going to be any better than Dobbs or Mullens have been so far, KOC is at least giving himself the chance to properly assess the QB position's future heading into the offseason. Good, forward-looking decision with low risk (hard to believe Hall could do any worse than Dobbs and Mullens have) and high reward (Hall might actually turn out to be good).

If Hall turns out to be not-so-good, KAM and KOC know what they will have to do over the offseason at the QB position, which could include bringing Cousins back for another season and/or drafting a QB in the first or second round.

Whatever they end up doing, at least they'll do it with the data points needed to make an informed decision.

Maybe the future is finally looking at little brighter...
Here’s my only concern about starting Hall.

He has a checkered injury history.

He had several injuries at BYU, including at least one concussion, and he lasted two series against the Falcons. It’s not a knock on him, per se. He’s not a big guy. But he’s also a guy who like to run, and he can run. Also, it’s obvious that KOC isn’t king to hold back on the playbook. He is going to call a lot of pass plays, no matter who is under center. He’ll have Hall drop back a lot, and that puts him in harm’s way.

My hope is that he quickly learns to slide or run out of bounds because that hit he took in Atlanta was nasty.

The Packers have given up more than 2,000 yards on the ground this year. I feel like the running game needs some priority (for once) for the Vikings against the Packers.

And if the Vikings lose … well, the consolation prize of moving up in the draft following a season where the Vikings have zero chance to win the Super Bowl isn’t that bad.
Image
Go ahead. I dare you.
Underestimate this man.
CharVike
Hall of Fame Candidate
Posts: 3377
Joined: Sun Jan 20, 2019 5:28 pm
x 648

Re: Who Starts?

Post by CharVike »

J. Kapp 11 wrote: Thu Dec 28, 2023 4:28 pm
VikingLord wrote: Thu Dec 28, 2023 1:49 pm Heard KOC decided to give Hall the start against the Packers, and while I don't know if Hall is going to be any better than Dobbs or Mullens have been so far, KOC is at least giving himself the chance to properly assess the QB position's future heading into the offseason. Good, forward-looking decision with low risk (hard to believe Hall could do any worse than Dobbs and Mullens have) and high reward (Hall might actually turn out to be good).

If Hall turns out to be not-so-good, KAM and KOC know what they will have to do over the offseason at the QB position, which could include bringing Cousins back for another season and/or drafting a QB in the first or second round.

Whatever they end up doing, at least they'll do it with the data points needed to make an informed decision.

Maybe the future is finally looking at little brighter...
Here’s my only concern about starting Hall.

He has a checkered injury history.

He had several injuries at BYU, including at least one concussion, and he lasted two series against the Falcons. It’s not a knock on him, per se. He’s not a big guy. But he’s also a guy who like to run, and he can run. Also, it’s obvious that KOC isn’t king to hold back on the playbook. He is going to call a lot of pass plays, no matter who is under center. He’ll have Hall drop back a lot, and that puts him in harm’s way.

My hope is that he quickly learns to slide or run out of bounds because that hit he took in Atlanta was nasty.

The Packers have given up more than 2,000 yards on the ground this year. I feel like the running game needs some priority (for once) for the Vikings against the Packers.

And if the Vikings lose … well, the consolation prize of moving up in the draft following a season where the Vikings have zero chance to win the Super Bowl isn’t that bad.
I think this is a smart move. Mullens had a golden opportunity and couldn't perform. No team can survive his TOs. We moved the ball fine, he had a quick drop back but as an poster stated he thinks he's a gunslinger and he's far from that. That last pick on a pass intended for JJ was the back backer for him. It looked like the defense was waiting for that pass. For any rookie it's tough but nothing to lose at this point. Getting game experience is a good thing.
User avatar
VikingLord
Hall of Famer
Posts: 8187
Joined: Wed Sep 03, 2003 3:12 pm
Location: The Land of the Ice and Snow
x 896

Re: Who Starts?

Post by VikingLord »

J. Kapp 11 wrote: Thu Dec 28, 2023 4:28 pm
VikingLord wrote: Thu Dec 28, 2023 1:49 pm Heard KOC decided to give Hall the start against the Packers, and while I don't know if Hall is going to be any better than Dobbs or Mullens have been so far, KOC is at least giving himself the chance to properly assess the QB position's future heading into the offseason. Good, forward-looking decision with low risk (hard to believe Hall could do any worse than Dobbs and Mullens have) and high reward (Hall might actually turn out to be good).

If Hall turns out to be not-so-good, KAM and KOC know what they will have to do over the offseason at the QB position, which could include bringing Cousins back for another season and/or drafting a QB in the first or second round.

Whatever they end up doing, at least they'll do it with the data points needed to make an informed decision.

Maybe the future is finally looking at little brighter...
Here’s my only concern about starting Hall.

He has a checkered injury history.

He had several injuries at BYU, including at least one concussion, and he lasted two series against the Falcons. It’s not a knock on him, per se. He’s not a big guy. But he’s also a guy who like to run, and he can run. Also, it’s obvious that KOC isn’t king to hold back on the playbook. He is going to call a lot of pass plays, no matter who is under center. He’ll have Hall drop back a lot, and that puts him in harm’s way.

My hope is that he quickly learns to slide or run out of bounds because that hit he took in Atlanta was nasty.

The Packers have given up more than 2,000 yards on the ground this year. I feel like the running game needs some priority (for once) for the Vikings against the Packers.

And if the Vikings lose … well, the consolation prize of moving up in the draft following a season where the Vikings have zero chance to win the Super Bowl isn’t that bad.
I agree on the draft position. Personally, I think the Vikings could easily lose the next two games regardless of who starts at QB, but at least by starting Hall KOC is going to get some perspective on Hall's potential, and that info will be priceless to KAM and him as they head into the offseason.

I am really impressed KOC made this call. The safe thing would have been to stick with Mullens. This move takes some imagination and a willingness to view the bigger picture, which is risky if the owners expect the team to make the playoffs.
J. Kapp 11
Hall of Famer
Posts: 9769
Joined: Fri Sep 22, 2006 12:57 pm
x 1854

Re: Who Starts?

Post by J. Kapp 11 »

CharVike wrote: Thu Dec 28, 2023 6:55 pm
J. Kapp 11 wrote: Thu Dec 28, 2023 4:28 pm
Here’s my only concern about starting Hall.

He has a checkered injury history.

He had several injuries at BYU, including at least one concussion, and he lasted two series against the Falcons. It’s not a knock on him, per se. He’s not a big guy. But he’s also a guy who like to run, and he can run. Also, it’s obvious that KOC isn’t king to hold back on the playbook. He is going to call a lot of pass plays, no matter who is under center. He’ll have Hall drop back a lot, and that puts him in harm’s way.

My hope is that he quickly learns to slide or run out of bounds because that hit he took in Atlanta was nasty.

The Packers have given up more than 2,000 yards on the ground this year. I feel like the running game needs some priority (for once) for the Vikings against the Packers.

And if the Vikings lose … well, the consolation prize of moving up in the draft following a season where the Vikings have zero chance to win the Super Bowl isn’t that bad.
I think this is a smart move. Mullens had a golden opportunity and couldn't perform. No team can survive his TOs. We moved the ball fine, he had a quick drop back but as an poster stated he thinks he's a gunslinger and he's far from that. That last pick on a pass intended for JJ was the back backer for him. It looked like the defense was waiting for that pass. For any rookie it's tough but nothing to lose at this point. Getting game experience is a good thing.
I don’t disagree. Hall is the right call. I just hope he doesn’t get hurt again.

As for the last pass, I’m gonna disagree here. The defense wasn’t waiting for that pass. JJ was coming open. The winning TD was right there. It was just a terrible, god-awful throw. Probably the single worst throw I’ve ever seen from an NFL quarterback. It fluttered so much that it was almost end-over-end. I thought surely somebody must’ve hit his arm. Then they showed the replay. Mullens stepped up in the pocket. Nobody near him.

Then after the game, Mullens talked about being caught between whether to lead JJ or just “put it on him.” Seriously dude? Just put it on him? It’s a 35-yard throw. You honestly think you have the arm strength to just fire a bee bee right on him? With your pop gun arm, you HAVE to lead him.

This is what I’ve been talking about. He’s a guy with a rag arm who fancies himself as Brett Favre just because he went to the same school.

Along with his punt-pass at the end, Mullens is being benched because …

— He threw four bad interceptions
— A fifth interception was called back because the overrated Aiden Hutchinson was offside
— A sixth interception was dropped
— He fumbled twice, including the miraculous recovery by JJ, followed by the miraculous third-and-27 catch by JJ
— He got bailed out on a third fumble when his butt touched the ground a split second before he coughed it up

That is, by my count (not official) 9 potential turnovers. NINE!

I don’t care that he threw for 411 yards. I don’t care if he throws for 750 yards. You can’t have a so-called veteran out there giving the ball away like that. It’s one of the worst performances by a Vikings quarterback that I’ve ever seen, and I’ve been a fan since 1969.

At least if Hall does it, he’s a rookie. I hope we never have to be subjected to another game with Nick Mullens as the Vikings quarterback.
Image
Go ahead. I dare you.
Underestimate this man.
StanM
Veteran
Posts: 277
Joined: Tue Jan 01, 2019 11:46 am
x 124

Re: Who Starts?

Post by StanM »

Hall starting and some of our fan base are going to ruthlessly criticize his every move. I’ve seen rookies thrust into these situations and it killed their confidence. He does have a reputation for protecting the ball and he can move in the pocket. He’s got a strong arm, is mature and smart. I hope he does well. Vikings QB is a career killing gig this season. It appears to have not been kind to Dobbs and Mullen.
CharVike
Hall of Fame Candidate
Posts: 3377
Joined: Sun Jan 20, 2019 5:28 pm
x 648

Re: Who Starts?

Post by CharVike »

J. Kapp 11 wrote: Fri Dec 29, 2023 10:24 am
CharVike wrote: Thu Dec 28, 2023 6:55 pm
I think this is a smart move. Mullens had a golden opportunity and couldn't perform. No team can survive his TOs. We moved the ball fine, he had a quick drop back but as an poster stated he thinks he's a gunslinger and he's far from that. That last pick on a pass intended for JJ was the back backer for him. It looked like the defense was waiting for that pass. For any rookie it's tough but nothing to lose at this point. Getting game experience is a good thing.
I don’t disagree. Hall is the right call. I just hope he doesn’t get hurt again.

As for the last pass, I’m gonna disagree here. The defense wasn’t waiting for that pass. JJ was coming open. The winning TD was right there. It was just a terrible, god-awful throw. Probably the single worst throw I’ve ever seen from an NFL quarterback. It fluttered so much that it was almost end-over-end. I thought surely somebody must’ve hit his arm. Then they showed the replay. Mullens stepped up in the pocket. Nobody near him.

Then after the game, Mullens talked about being caught between whether to lead JJ or just “put it on him.” Seriously dude? Just put it on him? It’s a 35-yard throw. You honestly think you have the arm strength to just fire a bee bee right on him? With your pop gun arm, you HAVE to lead him.

This is what I’ve been talking about. He’s a guy with a rag arm who fancies himself as Brett Favre just because he went to the same school.

Along with his punt-pass at the end, Mullens is being benched because …

— He threw four bad interceptions
— A fifth interception was called back because the overrated Aiden Hutchinson was offside
— A sixth interception was dropped
— He fumbled twice, including the miraculous recovery by JJ, followed by the miraculous third-and-27 catch by JJ
— He got bailed out on a third fumble when his butt touched the ground a split second before he coughed it up

That is, by my count (not official) 9 potential turnovers. NINE!

I don’t care that he threw for 411 yards. I don’t care if he throws for 750 yards. You can’t have a so-called veteran out there giving the ball away like that. It’s one of the worst performances by a Vikings quarterback that I’ve ever seen, and I’ve been a fan since 1969.

At least if Hall does it, he’s a rookie. I hope we never have to be subjected to another game with Nick Mullens as the Vikings quarterback.
Then after the game, Mullens talked about being caught between whether to lead JJ or just “put it on him.” Seriously dude? Just put it on him? It’s a 35-yard throw. You honestly think you have the arm strength to just fire a bee bee right on him? With your pop gun arm, you HAVE to lead him. Thanks for the laugh with this one. Matter of fact I laughed my a$$ off through your post. You called this guy out. He can never step on the field again with us. I just hope Hall shows something.
User avatar
VikingsVictorious
Hall of Fame Candidate
Posts: 3894
Joined: Sat May 04, 2019 7:27 pm
x 708

Re: Who Starts?

Post by VikingsVictorious »

For what it's worth I've been calling for Hall to start from day one after the Cousins injury and he did. Then the injury and we totally went away from him. We will never know what might have been if we had played Hall in all games he was healthy enough to play. I think it would be better than it is now. :govikes:
CharVike
Hall of Fame Candidate
Posts: 3377
Joined: Sun Jan 20, 2019 5:28 pm
x 648

Re: Who Starts?

Post by CharVike »

StanM wrote: Fri Dec 29, 2023 1:49 pm Hall starting and some of our fan base are going to ruthlessly criticize his every move. I’ve seen rookies thrust into these situations and it killed their confidence. He does have a reputation for protecting the ball and he can move in the pocket. He’s got a strong arm, is mature and smart. I hope he does well. Vikings QB is a career killing gig this season. It appears to have not been kind to Dobbs and Mullen.
That's how all fan bases are. I was checking out some 49er fans tweets during the beat down the Ravens gave them. After a few interceptions it was... this was Purdy at Iowa ST.. let's see what Donald can do because Purdy sucks ect... The Viking fan base was wondering what head band Dobbs would wear for his ring of honor induction. Once he fell back down to earth and sucked liked he always has it was how can a team give up any draft pick for this stiff. Most Viking fans can't wait for Kirk to be gone. Well they are getting a good taste of what that will be like. Once a WR gets broken in two because of a joke pass they will wake up. Now the hearts are with pop gun Hall. What until he throws up a dying quail when he attempts a pass over 30 yards. Defenders will be standing there waiting for the Quail to come down. Hopefully I'm wrong and he'll throw some rockets into the middle of the field 30+ yards away or into the deep corner of the end zone like Elway could. Don't count on those two happening because he can't do it. Many feel if a guy can run you can win with a crap OL. That never happened and never will. Eventually you will need to throw and they all need time for that.
Cliff
Site Admin
Posts: 9467
Joined: Mon Apr 26, 2004 5:51 pm
Location: Kentucky
x 417

Re: Who Starts?

Post by Cliff »

Franchise next moves: Sign Cousins for 2 seasons assuming a full recovery. Then draft a QB in the 1st round this year and let him sit until Cousins is gone.

GB has a strategy that is obviously working.