Chiefs at Vikings

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Cliff
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Re: Chiefs at Vikings

Post by Cliff »

The offense is terrible. We're -8 in turnovers and they're constantly putting the defense in awful positions. I don't care at all about the passing stats. The offense as a whole is bad at fundamental things. Fumbles, dropped balls, missing blocking assignments, etc. We're basically the Stafford/Megatron Lions.

That turnover stat determines a lot and the Vikings are one of the worst teams in the league in it.

Teams with good TO ratios:
winners.png

Teams with bad TO ratios:
losers.png
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Re: Chiefs at Vikings

Post by psjordan »

VikingLord wrote: Mon Oct 09, 2023 10:05 am
psjordan wrote: Mon Oct 09, 2023 8:59 am Does any coach or player get an "A" grade so far? Probably not. But last year's "C" grades for the most part seem to be "B" or "B-" this year, and that's a good trend.
Fascinating how we see this completely different.
Well, one can certainly choose to be incensed over a play such as the Bynum finger-width miss. It affects me same as every Vikes fan when watching. But we blitzed Harry (coming in low) and it was either Wonnum or Hunter there (coming in high) at the same time. Mahomes makes a miraculous throw off his back foot, pretty much a blind throw. Run that same sequence another 20 times and we stop it 15 or more times. Maybe every time.

That to me means we actually played pretty well on that play. We missed making it a punting situation by 1" (and to me, that would have been a monster critical stop - instead they went in for a TD). Didn't work out for us, but that's the charm of being a Vikings fan.

I also watched CJones get HANDLED several times during the game. Obviously he got a few plays in, but last year he would've wreaked havoc the entire game and KC would've won by 27 after 7-8 sacks.

I am in agreement on all the negatives, it's just that I saw quite a few more positives than in the past.

I have no idea how that translates going forward.
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Re: Chiefs at Vikings

Post by VikingLord »

psjordan wrote: Mon Oct 09, 2023 11:05 am I am in agreement on all the negatives, it's just that I saw quite a few more positives than in the past.

I have no idea how that translates going forward.
In my long time as a fan of the Vikings I have often tried to find the positives and be optimistic over the years because no matter how bad it is in a given game or given year, there are always a few bright spots and reasons to be hopeful.

But at some point I have to call a spade a spade. I did with in regards to Cousins at the end of last year in the playoff loss against the Giants, and I'm going to do it now with the team as it is currently composed.

The Vikings under KOC are a team of under-performers. Last year, they under-performed consistently and yet somehow managed to win all 11 of their one-score games during the regular season, including highly improbable comebacks against the Bills and Colts. While that was exciting, it was also not an indication that the team was improving in any meaningful way or the sign of any genius strategy on the part of KOC.

And now here were are in 2023, and they seem to be regressing as a team. I'm not even going to go into the issues with individual players or decisions regarding individual players, either in the draft or in free agency, of which there are many questionable decisions that have been made in those areas, but just look at the overall dysfunction on both sides of the ball. The offense can't run a two minute drill. They can't manage timeouts. They don't attack the weaknesses of their opponents, and we are now on the 3rd(?) week of them forcing the run game while attempting mostly short, conservative passes. It's no wonder the football gods are punishing them with turnovers this year. They, like me, have seen enough of this short, play-it-safe-every-week stuff to last a lifetime (and they're immortal, so that is saying a LOT).

In all seriousness, what is KOC's offensive calling card? What, throw short passes to receivers and hope they run for TDs after the catch? Because that seems to be the plan. And now nobody can seem to catch or secure a football, which is just fantastic given al the cap space invested on the offensive side of the football. I mean, this supposedly great offensive team has scored 3 points in the first quarter over a five game span. That isn't just bad - it's historically inept. They have excuses of course. Who would the Vikings be without their excuses for consistent faillure. But that isn't the point. The point is, good teams fix things and don't make the same mistakes over and over. I don't see any signs the Vikings offense under KOC is fixing anything. Not the execution, not the ball security, not the gameplanning, not the time management. It's the same thing every week minus the good luck of last year.

On defense, well, Flores doesn't have a lot to work with in terms of talent, but one abiding theme of the Minnesota Vikings defense is secondary ineptitude and passivity. Harrison Smith is easily the best defender in that secondary, and that isn't saying much as he blows coverages and fails to find the ball with the best of them. But at least he compensates by making some splash plays from time-to-time, unlike pretty much anyone else in that unit. They seem almost allergic to the ball at best and completely clueless at worst. Nobody jumps routes, shows anticipation, or takes any chances. What are the odds the Vikings DBs will pick off any pass not thrown right at them ala what Hurts did on the INT to Jackson? Heck, Bynum can't even get his hands on a Mahomes' duck ball throw, much less pick it off.

I watch this team week in and week out and I am really starting to wonder why given how unseriously they seem to take things. That may not be fair of me, but come on, professionals fix their issues. Professionals do not continue to repeat the same mistakes over and over, because if they do, they are replaced by people that will fix their mistakes. KOC is not fixing his mistakes. The offensive players are not fixing their mistakes. I don't think the defensive secondary is even capable of fixing their mistakes - I think what we're seeing from them is actually the best they can do.

This is a really crappy team in actuality that is going to most likely do the opposite of what last year's team did - this year's team will lose all their close games (although I really don't think the games against either the Chiefs or Chargers were all that close in reality). That is most likely how it will translate going forward.

Do you have confidence KOC knows what he's doing at this point? If you look past the close losses, do you see any signs of structural, lasting improvement anywhere on this team?
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Re: Chiefs at Vikings

Post by makila »

VikingLord wrote: Mon Oct 09, 2023 9:51 am Oliver was not benched the rest of the game. Later in the game he pulled a Hockenson and let a pass go right through his hands for an incompletion as well.
Guess the consequence to players continuing to fumble didn't mean actually getting sat down. Or maybe it was just slap on the wrist sit down. Sure it could be done private. Stop fumbling the damn ball. Is this back to where every player who touches the ball needs to be carrying one around like a baby all day long?
VikingLord wrote: Mon Oct 09, 2023 9:51 am About the only WR I trust right now to actually catch and hold on to the ball is Addison. The rest, I cringe each time the ball comes their way. Even JJ doesn't seem all that solid lately, except in his case he hardly sees the ball come his way. He is rapidly moving into Randy Moss-as-a-decoy territory.
I hold my breath with pretty much all but JJ and Addison. I agree that JJ hasn't been as solid lately.

I hope this was the game Addison finally moved past KJ. I think KJ is likely a great person from everything I've read and we've heard people say the last few years. His story is awesome to get where he is. He isn't a WR2. Lets move past that. Obviously if JJ misses any real time we're gonna get to see Addison as a WR1 for a while.

We have to get more out of the TE room, simple as that. I did not like giving Hock huge money when he has yet to be the best TE at any real singular thing for an entire season. He needs to make these catches. If they have to be perfect throws then it defeats the purpose of paying him what he is getting. Yup, there is more pressure with more money.
VikingLord wrote: Mon Oct 09, 2023 9:51 am All the miscues were frustrating, but what frustrated me more was the lack of any deep attempts in the passing game and the continuing failure of the defensive secondary to make any plays on the ball. KOC's offense seems predicated on using the passing game to extend the running game. All the short attempts are great, but KC's secondary is not great and a team with a supposedly great passing attack like the Vikings should be able to hit them over the top once in a blue moon, or at the very least try. And yet, nothing was attempted all game unless that Cousins heave to a double-covered JJ is taken into consideration. KOC does not appear to be able to put together offensive gameplans that go after the opponent's weakness. He appears to be another robot head coach who wants to do the same thing to every opponent pretty much regardless of who that opponent is or what they can bring to the table. Great. He's a less gruff Zimmer, or at least appears to be heading that way.
There is an alarming trend on lack of weekly scheming by KOC. The game plan feels very similar week to week. While we should play to our strengths, we need to be attacking weaknesses with our strengths. And it appears that we are currently aren't looking at what the other team does well, or doesn't. He is still young enough, and early enough in his career, that I think he can become who he wants to be. I think Zimmer didn't know another way by the time he became a HC. It was his way during a long coaching career before becoming a HC. With KOC, in the now, it is still about who he wants to be....I think.

One of the things that concerns me some, related to offensive game planning..and calling, is that KOC is learning how to be a HC and play caller at the same time. They are different skill sets. A handful of HCs, can still be great and call plays. Obviously we just saw one in Reid. Most of the time though, those HCs were OCs with play calling duties BEFORE they became HC. Personally, I think most HCs shouldn't be calling plays, it takes a very unique rare person to make it work. I think KOC needs to take a step back. That's hard to do when you're in the weeds each week.
VikingLord wrote: Mon Oct 09, 2023 9:51 am As for the secondary, wow. I mean, Bynum lets Mahomes complete a garbage pick heave for 30 coming out of the half? How? How does that happen? Bynum makes things like that happen all the time. If he's not running into a ref, he's somehow short of the deepest receiver on a play like that? Or what about Harrison Smith? Another similar play, and somehow Smith loses awareness of where the deep receiver is and as he tries to make up the ground and despite the receiver obviously waiting for the ball he fails to even try to get his head around to look for it? Heck, Scandling even pulled him to the ground anticipating that Smith was going to be in position to pick that ball. Were there any passing plays where a Vikings secondary player got his hand on a ball or broke on a receiver and disrupted the catch? If there was, I didn't see it. And the KC receivers actually CATCH the balls thrown to them. They don't throw their hands up at the last minute to stab at them.
There is a reason Bynum was picked where he was. I actually don't get that frustrated with Bynum. I get more frustrated with all the high round draft pick complete misses we have in the secondary.
VikingLord wrote: Mon Oct 09, 2023 9:51 am The play that took the cake for me was the pass Cousins threw towards either KJ or Mattison in the end zone towards the end of the first half I think. When Cousins let the pass go in real time, I thought it was a sure TD. Then the ball just sailed past the receiver and through the end zone incomplete, and I thought Cousins just threw a bad pass or maybe the ball had been deflected.

Neither of those were true, though. No, the Vikings receiver on that play ran a route, came out of his break, and wasn't even looking back at the QB!?!?! How is that possible? The ball was delivered on time and was catchable. Every receiver in that situation should be looking back at the QB as they come out of their break. But not on the Vikings. On the Vikings, routes in the end zone apparently don't require that the receiver actually look back at the QB. I guess it was a decoy route? If there is such a thing?

Man, if I were KOC I'd literally release whoever did that (like I said, I don't remember if it was Mattison or KJ). They'd be gone.
If it's the play I think you're referring to, it was KJ. Kirk said it was on him. Though I haven't rewatched it. Kirk's been good about taking responsibility, frankly he's been the only consistent one to do so. It's where he has shown to be a leader on a certain level. Maybe moreso...he's shown to be a vet. Buuuuut then when you can't hear the play call...we don't know what to do. *sigh*

And before I forget...back to the KOC and play calling point.... GET THE PLAYS IN FASTER!!!!! I don't know what the heck is going on, and I don't really care. Clean up the procedural junk, like yesterday. They have got to stop breaking the huddle with 8 seconds or so left on the play clock. It has to stop happening. And fire whoever was supposed to be helping with clock management. They simply aren't doing it.

Mattison needs to play less. I like the guy, think he's a good compliment back. Can spot start. He needs to be the 1b to a 1a type back. He shouldn't be getting the majority of touches.
VikingLord wrote: Mon Oct 09, 2023 9:51 am Anyway, what a sh1tshow of a team. Crappy clock management (if you can call it that), no strategy on either side of the ball, passive defensive secondary, the highest paid tight end in the league who can't catch... The top two picks from KAM's first draft rarely see the field. Right now, the offensive line looks like it might be the best unit on the team. And the team is still up hard against the cap IIRC. If I were the Wilfs watching this I would be making it very clear the house will be cleaned at the end of this season if this continues.
I'm glad the wilfs where there on Sunday, and they got to see the place with a LOT of chief fans. Who were very loud. Andy Reid commented to a KC writer (I think it was) how loud their fans were.

Offensive, and defensive, line played good. Everyone's gonna remember the hail mary and the pressure they got. Think it was ingram who got beat iirc. That was sadly, probably their worst pass block sequence of the game. The oline played good. With risner on the bench. Little confused on the signing, unless they really just wanted him for depth?
Last edited by makila on Tue Oct 10, 2023 9:44 pm, edited 1 time in total.
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Re: Chiefs at Vikings

Post by Purple Reign »

J. Kapp 11 wrote: Sun Oct 08, 2023 6:53 pm You know, I hadn’t thought about that with the Kelce play.

The rule:
If a player catches a pass, gets two feet (or one shin/knee) down, and then goes to the ground, he must secure possession through the act of going to the ground.
Somebody please explain to me how Kelce met this requirement.
I will take a shot at answering your question. Kelce caught the ball and was on his back on the ground with possession of the ball. Now if he wasn't touched and the ball came loose when he hit the ground, then it would be an incomplete pass. The difference here is that he had possession when he was touched on the ground, making him down by contact and I'm guessing that is why it was ruled a catch. I understand the rule is a bit vague though as it really doesn't state what 'through the act of going to the ground' really means.
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Re: Chiefs at Vikings

Post by J. Kapp 11 »

CharVike wrote: Mon Oct 09, 2023 9:01 am 1st play of the game fumble. How many dropped passes? Matti can't even catch a screen. Bynum gave away a late completion. I like him but that was a strange play. The finger can be pointed at many different plays. We don't play sound football and that started right off the bat. We can't play at the point. We can't beat good teams.
That dropped screen by Mattison … an overlooked aspect of that loss. Ball was right where it needed to be, the play design had KC flowing toward the fake screen on the other side of the field, and Mattison had a convoy in front of him with no one to block. It was a sure touchdown to tie the game, but of course Mattison dropped it because he seems to have a hereditary inability to hang on to a football.

I’m done with Mattison. Fumbles and drops galore. Give Akers the reps.
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