Chargers at Vikings

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Re: Chargers at Vikings

Post by CharVike »

chicagopurple wrote: Wed Sep 27, 2023 8:15 am I have been a dedicated, oft frustrated Vikings fan since the early 70's. I dont think I have ever been more fed up with this team (ownership/management) as I am today. This epic train wreck of a team is pretty hopeless. The glaring weaknesses are obvious, chronic and seemingly intentionally ignored by management. I find little motivation to watch them anymore. I have found myself looking forward to watching promising teams like the 49ers in the last 2 years rather then my own team. I cannot believe that ownership is as stupid as their actions would suggest. I am beginning to think they really just dont care. They know that their shiny new stadium and PC marketing ploys are sufficient to hoodwink the fans and create the income stream they wish. Its pretty disgusting. Most of the veteran fans who post here would have fixed the Vikings chronic needs present for the last 10 yrs. The Wilfs are either hideously inept or they dont have the right goal.
The Wilf's aren't inept. They could sell this team for much more than what they paid. In the end that's why they own the team. They are Giant fans and their team just got there a$$es kicked by the 49ers. They will tank just like we are. Every team is tanking but around 4 of them with SB chances. But when every team tanks somebody will still win. That's the NFL. You can't even tank. The Panthers are tanking. They will probably beat us though because we can't do the basics yet and this TJ Hock should never make the trip but he will for some reason. Is KOC that blind? Or is that on the Wilf's.
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Re: Chargers at Vikings

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CharVike wrote: Wed Sep 27, 2023 8:09 am Do people actual think Mahomes would guide our team to the Super Bowl? The Chiefs are a modern dynasty. 2 years ago 9 draft picks that contributed. Mahomes mentioned them. How many years or decades would it take for us to do that? There OL isn't a POS. There DL isn't a POS. But it's only Mahomes. Caleb Whatever is a less talented Jamesis Winston. We can have that turnover stiff right now. Baker Mayfield I read how great he was coming out. He blows. Now it's the guy the Panthers picked who is a superstar. The guy weighs maybe 180. You can't hold up at that weight. Now we have Joe Webb I mean J Hall as the next master. Only Sloter was a better preseason passer than that stiff. Our problems go way beyond QB. It's start at the GM. An entire 2022 draft with nothing. No team wins that way. Why are they still on the roster? I just saw 40 million+ Dak throw an end zone INT for the loss. Wasn't close to any of his players. Some say he's the best in the game. If Cousins did that they will all say typical bum like he is. Dak had plenty of time no defender was around him. Not even close to him. This TJ fumbles right off the bat. That ball that bounced around for the interception at the end hit him in the hands. Shouldn't a guy catch that ball? Was it impossible? If I was Cousins I would say this TJ sucks he cost us the game. Week before JJ gave the game away. But Cousins won't say that which is a lack of leadership ability. Russell Wilson will throw any teammate under the bus. He's a true winner. Not some stupid wild card but the whole deal.
The problems do go beyond the QB, but that doesn't mean the QB isn't a problem or addressing that position isn't necessary to get the team on track.

I want to make it clear that I'm not blaming Cousins for everything that ills the team, nor suggesting that even replacing him with the best QB the NFL has ever seen is enough to get the team to a Superbowl.

But they have to start somewhere, and Cousins IS an issue. It's not even debatable. His lack of leadership at critical moments and inability or refusal to make key decisions has directly cost the team at least a chance to win games they might otherwise have had a chance to win. That isn't even debatable.

If you want the Vikings to stick with Cousins god bless you. I do not.
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Re: Chargers at Vikings

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VikingLord wrote: Wed Sep 27, 2023 10:57 am
CharVike wrote: Wed Sep 27, 2023 8:09 am Do people actual think Mahomes would guide our team to the Super Bowl? The Chiefs are a modern dynasty. 2 years ago 9 draft picks that contributed. Mahomes mentioned them. How many years or decades would it take for us to do that? There OL isn't a POS. There DL isn't a POS. But it's only Mahomes. Caleb Whatever is a less talented Jamesis Winston. We can have that turnover stiff right now. Baker Mayfield I read how great he was coming out. He blows. Now it's the guy the Panthers picked who is a superstar. The guy weighs maybe 180. You can't hold up at that weight. Now we have Joe Webb I mean J Hall as the next master. Only Sloter was a better preseason passer than that stiff. Our problems go way beyond QB. It's start at the GM. An entire 2022 draft with nothing. No team wins that way. Why are they still on the roster? I just saw 40 million+ Dak throw an end zone INT for the loss. Wasn't close to any of his players. Some say he's the best in the game. If Cousins did that they will all say typical bum like he is. Dak had plenty of time no defender was around him. Not even close to him. This TJ fumbles right off the bat. That ball that bounced around for the interception at the end hit him in the hands. Shouldn't a guy catch that ball? Was it impossible? If I was Cousins I would say this TJ sucks he cost us the game. Week before JJ gave the game away. But Cousins won't say that which is a lack of leadership ability. Russell Wilson will throw any teammate under the bus. He's a true winner. Not some stupid wild card but the whole deal.
The problems do go beyond the QB, but that doesn't mean the QB isn't a problem or addressing that position isn't necessary to get the team on track.

I want to make it clear that I'm not blaming Cousins for everything that ills the team, nor suggesting that even replacing him with the best QB the NFL has ever seen is enough to get the team to a Superbowl.

But they have to start somewhere, and Cousins IS an issue. It's not even debatable. His lack of leadership at critical moments and inability or refusal to make key decisions has directly cost the team at least a chance to win games they might otherwise have had a chance to win. That isn't even debatable.

If you want the Vikings to stick with Cousins god bless you. I do not.
You gotta start some where? How about the biggest problem, which is far from cousins. If this management wants to start fixing the small problems before the big ones speaks to a huge lack or being able to prioritize what’s important. Can we improve from Cousins in the off season? “Maybe” can we improve our oline and dline in the off season? Damn right we can.
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Re: Chargers at Vikings

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Cousins could be a good enough QB for a Super Bowl run on a team with a Smart Coach and a rock solid OL......we have never had either during his entire tenure here. His only real value for the Vikings is trade bait. We arent going anywhere with him. We just dont have the team to support his skills. The Vikings are stupid enough to let his contract run out and get nothing for him. He COULD be our version of Herschel Walker if we find a team during the season suddenly in need of a QB...he could earn us many prime draft spots and a few quality Linemen....but that wont happen....we never are on the receiving end of great blockbuster trades....
Last edited by chicagopurple on Wed Sep 27, 2023 1:24 pm, edited 1 time in total.
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Re: Chargers at Vikings

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VikingLord wrote: Wed Sep 27, 2023 10:57 am
CharVike wrote: Wed Sep 27, 2023 8:09 am Do people actual think Mahomes would guide our team to the Super Bowl? The Chiefs are a modern dynasty. 2 years ago 9 draft picks that contributed. Mahomes mentioned them. How many years or decades would it take for us to do that? There OL isn't a POS. There DL isn't a POS. But it's only Mahomes. Caleb Whatever is a less talented Jamesis Winston. We can have that turnover stiff right now. Baker Mayfield I read how great he was coming out. He blows. Now it's the guy the Panthers picked who is a superstar. The guy weighs maybe 180. You can't hold up at that weight. Now we have Joe Webb I mean J Hall as the next master. Only Sloter was a better preseason passer than that stiff. Our problems go way beyond QB. It's start at the GM. An entire 2022 draft with nothing. No team wins that way. Why are they still on the roster? I just saw 40 million+ Dak throw an end zone INT for the loss. Wasn't close to any of his players. Some say he's the best in the game. If Cousins did that they will all say typical bum like he is. Dak had plenty of time no defender was around him. Not even close to him. This TJ fumbles right off the bat. That ball that bounced around for the interception at the end hit him in the hands. Shouldn't a guy catch that ball? Was it impossible? If I was Cousins I would say this TJ sucks he cost us the game. Week before JJ gave the game away. But Cousins won't say that which is a lack of leadership ability. Russell Wilson will throw any teammate under the bus. He's a true winner. Not some stupid wild card but the whole deal.
The problems do go beyond the QB, but that doesn't mean the QB isn't a problem or addressing that position isn't necessary to get the team on track.

I want to make it clear that I'm not blaming Cousins for everything that ills the team, nor suggesting that even replacing him with the best QB the NFL has ever seen is enough to get the team to a Superbowl.

But they have to start somewhere, and Cousins IS an issue. It's not even debatable. His lack of leadership at critical moments and inability or refusal to make key decisions has directly cost the team at least a chance to win games they might otherwise have had a chance to win. That isn't even debatable.

If you want the Vikings to stick with Cousins god bless you. I do not.
Cousins is gone he's just playing it out like the rest of them. Move on to the next stiff next season. This team lacks the talent to compete for a Super Bowl. We can't play at the point which means your done. We are a quarter step behind the Giants who just got beat like a dog by the 49ers. If we played the 49ers the same thing will happen. Even if we had Dan Jones who is a top level QB. High pick. Great movement but I guess he's not a leader. More talent would help his leadership ability. You can't lead garbage anywhere. Aikman found that out when the Cowboy team lost it's talent.
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Re: Chargers at Vikings

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chicagopurple wrote: Wed Sep 27, 2023 12:02 pm Cousins could be a good enough QB for a Super Bowl run on a team with a Smart Coach and a rock solid OL......
I disagree with this. Cousins will never win a Superbowl regardless of the talent around him in my opinion, because no matter the talent around him, there will inevitably be a situation where he has to make a hard call and take a risk and he will shrink in the face of that responsibility.

This last Sunday, Cousins needed to take charge and spike that ball to give his team the best chance to win. He failed to do that and pawned off the responsibility for the outcome. Ditto for the 4th down throw short of the sticks in the playoff game last year.

Hard calls need to be made. Risks need to be taken. Even with a perfect team around him, something will demand that price be paid to reach the top. Cousins will not pay it, which is ironic considering how much the Vikings are paying him to do exactly that.
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Re: Chargers at Vikings

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VikingLord wrote: Wed Sep 27, 2023 1:29 pm
chicagopurple wrote: Wed Sep 27, 2023 12:02 pm Cousins could be a good enough QB for a Super Bowl run on a team with a Smart Coach and a rock solid OL......
I disagree with this. Cousins will never win a Superbowl regardless of the talent around him in my opinion, because no matter the talent around him, there will inevitably be a situation where he has to make a hard call and take a risk and he will shrink in the face of that responsibility.

This last Sunday, Cousins needed to take charge and spike that ball to give his team the best chance to win. He failed to do that and pawned off the responsibility for the outcome. Ditto for the 4th down throw short of the sticks in the playoff game last year.

Hard calls need to be made. Risks need to be taken. Even with a perfect team around him, something will demand that price be paid to reach the top. Cousins will not pay it, which is ironic considering how much the Vikings are paying him to do exactly that.
Instead of pure speculation how about they try to build and see instead of assuming he can’t while never putting him in the position to succeed. That way if he doesn’t the next qb starts in a favourable position. I want cold hard proof, not a fans “feelings” tell them he can’t.
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Re: Chargers at Vikings

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allday1991 wrote: Wed Sep 27, 2023 11:15 am You gotta start some where? How about the biggest problem, which is far from cousins. If this management wants to start fixing the small problems before the big ones speaks to a huge lack or being able to prioritize what’s important. Can we improve from Cousins in the off season? “Maybe” can we improve our oline and dline in the off season? Damn right we can.
Now we have some debate going... :smilevike:

I disagree that Cousins is not a big problem. He is, not because he doesn't perform well enough most of the time, but because he performs terribly at the critical times. Can't have that if a team hopes to win a Superbowl. If the standard is just barely make the playoffs, I'm fine with them keeping Cousins and focusing on the lines instead.

Also, maybe they can do both things just by drafting a little better.
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Re: Chargers at Vikings

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allday1991 wrote: Wed Sep 27, 2023 1:38 pm Instead of pure speculation how about they try to build and see instead of assuming he can’t while never putting him in the position to succeed. That way if he doesn’t the next qb starts in a favourable position. I want cold hard proof, not a fans “feelings” tell them he can’t.
Did you read what I wrote? The two examples I gave of Cousins' failures to meet the moment in critical situations have nothing to do with "feelings".

What position was Cousins put in after the late 4th down conversion to TJ?

Cousins himself said he had the power to go up and spike it.

He couldn't have attempted a throw past the sticks on the 4th down against the Giants in the playoffs last year?

I think these are pretty objective things.
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Re: Chargers at Vikings

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CharVike wrote: Wed Sep 27, 2023 12:45 pm Cousins is gone he's just playing it out like the rest of them. Move on to the next stiff next season. This team lacks the talent to compete for a Super Bowl. We can't play at the point which means your done. We are a quarter step behind the Giants who just got beat like a dog by the 49ers. If we played the 49ers the same thing will happen. Even if we had Dan Jones who is a top level QB. High pick. Great movement but I guess he's not a leader. More talent would help his leadership ability. You can't lead garbage anywhere. Aikman found that out when the Cowboy team lost it's talent.
It's a team game, so of course one player isn't going to be decisive if there is a huge talent mismatch between two teams overall.

But that isn't the point I'm trying to make.

The point I'm trying to make is that when the outcome is close and rests on small decisions and the willingness to take risks and responsibility, one player can make all the difference, and players at certain positions are more likely to be in the position where those calls have to be made and that responsibility accepted.

I can't speak to whether Jones would be any better in those situations than Cousins. I doubt you can either. But it isn't relevant to the point I'm trying to make about the guy currently playing QB for the Vikings.
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Re: Chargers at Vikings

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VikingLord wrote: Wed Sep 27, 2023 1:40 pm
allday1991 wrote: Wed Sep 27, 2023 1:38 pm Instead of pure speculation how about they try to build and see instead of assuming he can’t while never putting him in the position to succeed. That way if he doesn’t the next qb starts in a favourable position. I want cold hard proof, not a fans “feelings” tell them he can’t.
Did you read what I wrote? The two examples I gave of Cousins' failures to meet the moment in critical situations have nothing to do with "feelings".

What position was Cousins put in after the late 4th down conversion to TJ?

Cousins himself said he had the power to go up and spike it.

He couldn't have attempted a throw past the sticks on the 4th down against the Giants in the playoffs last year?

I think these are pretty objective things.
Sure they’re for sure, but let’s take into account the 8 or 9 game winning drives he had last year, those are critical moments when he didn’t choke. So let’s put this into something usable. Heck I’ll even group in mistakes from this year. I’ll agree giants game he could of thrown it past the sticks (1 strike against), sure he could of ran up and spiked the ball (2 strikes) heck let’s even add the strip from kj against the bucs (strike 3) and tj vs the chargers(strike 4). It’s still 9-4 which is 9/13 which means in game situations cousins has come through over 64% of the time in tough situations. Far cry from “always” failing in tight situations
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Re: Chargers at Vikings

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VikingLord wrote: Wed Sep 27, 2023 1:29 pm
chicagopurple wrote: Wed Sep 27, 2023 12:02 pm Cousins could be a good enough QB for a Super Bowl run on a team with a Smart Coach and a rock solid OL......
I disagree with this. Cousins will never win a Superbowl regardless of the talent around him in my opinion, because no matter the talent around him, there will inevitably be a situation where he has to make a hard call and take a risk and he will shrink in the face of that responsibility.

This last Sunday, Cousins needed to take charge and spike that ball to give his team the best chance to win. He failed to do that and pawned off the responsibility for the outcome. Ditto for the 4th down throw short of the sticks in the playoff game last year.

Hard calls need to be made. Risks need to be taken. Even with a perfect team around him, something will demand that price be paid to reach the top. Cousins will not pay it, which is ironic considering how much the Vikings are paying him to do exactly that.
Cousins fooled everyone by not doing what should have been done. That's a risk but Hock couldn't catch it. The receiver needs to help also. He gets big money so make a play. Unless it was a ball that couldn't be caught. I think it was there.
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Re: Chargers at Vikings

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allday1991 wrote: Wed Sep 27, 2023 2:43 pm Sure they’re for sure, but let’s take into account the 8 or 9 game winning drives he had last year, those are critical moments when he didn’t choke. So let’s put this into something usable. Heck I’ll even group in mistakes from this year. I’ll agree giants game he could of thrown it past the sticks (1 strike against), sure he could of ran up and spiked the ball (2 strikes) heck let’s even add the strip from kj against the bucs (strike 3) and tj vs the chargers(strike 4). It’s still 9-4 which is 9/13 which means in game situations cousins has come through over 64% of the time in tough situations. Far cry from “always” failing in tight situations
But that isn't speaking to the point I'm trying to make. The point I'm trying to make doesn't rely on a specific result. A tough call can be made that isn't successful and doesn't result in a win.

Had Cousins thrown beyond the sticks in that game against the Giants in the playoffs, that doesn't mean he'd have completed it or that the Vikings would have gone on to win that game. Or even against the Chargers if he runs them up and spikes it, it just gives the offense more time to try to score. They still could easily have lost the game even if he spiked it.

It's the ability and willingness to make the hard decision that matters more than the specific result of that decision, at least from where I sit.

But I'm willing to acknowledge that those tough calls might also result in wins, so what critical call or decision did Cousins have to make in the 9 game winning drives that you point to as examples?

In the game against the Bills, he made a very tough throw to JJ and I also actually give him credit for trying to sneak it in late down near the goal line even though he didn't get in. The Vikings won that game but even had they lost I'd still give Cousins credit. Further, I actually looked at that game as a turning point for Cousins in this area. I thought he finally was going to take those risks and make those hard calls, and I was super optimistic about the team's playoff chances based on that. And then we see the end of that game against the Giants and all the air went out of my support of him.

I respect your belief in Cousins and understand where you're coming from with the point about the lines not being up to snuff (which I agree with). The problem does go deeper than him, but that doesn't mean he's not part of the problem. I think he's an essential part of the problem, to the point where even if the other problems are largely addressed in the short term, Cousins would likely still cost the team at some point due to his inability or unwillingness to make the harder decision.
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Re: Chargers at Vikings

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CharVike wrote: Wed Sep 27, 2023 3:50 pm Cousins fooled everyone by not doing what should have been done. That's a risk but Hock couldn't catch it. The receiver needs to help also. He gets big money so make a play. Unless it was a ball that couldn't be caught. I think it was there.
Of course Hock needs to catch that, but that isn't the point.

If we are going to look at that specific play, I don't think Cousins made a poor read or even a poor throw. I think TJ could have caught it, and I don't blame Cousins for the INT or even TJ for that matter as the ball popped up and a defender was there to pick it and did. And I think we can note that even if Cousins had taken the initiative and spiked the ball, the next play could easily have ended the exact same way.

But you can't point to that play and tell me that was Cousins making a tough or risky call that would have potentially subjected him to intense criticism or where he had to stick his neck out.

I kind of feel like AllDay, you and I are not talking about the same thing. I'm not criticizing Cousins because I think he can't throw the ball or doesn't escape pressure or even turns it over too much. I'm criticizing him because the decisions I see him make in terms of what to do in a given situation fall short of what the team needs from him in those situations. If he executes that late throw to JJ on 4th down near the goal line against the Chargers, for example, does it matter if the ball is well thrown or JJ catches it? It's short of the goal line, JJ had no prayer of getting it in because he had a defender on him as the ball got there, and the result of that play is going to be turnover on downs in what looked like at the time the last good chance the Vikings would have at going ahead.

I mean, you tell me. Is that what you need from your QB in that situation to win that game?
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Re: Chargers at Vikings

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VikingLord wrote: Wed Sep 27, 2023 4:19 pm
CharVike wrote: Wed Sep 27, 2023 3:50 pm Cousins fooled everyone by not doing what should have been done. That's a risk but Hock couldn't catch it. The receiver needs to help also. He gets big money so make a play. Unless it was a ball that couldn't be caught. I think it was there.
Of course Hock needs to catch that, but that isn't the point.

If we are going to look at that specific play, I don't think Cousins made a poor read or even a poor throw. I think TJ could have caught it, and I don't blame Cousins for the INT or even TJ for that matter as the ball popped up and a defender was there to pick it and did. And I think we can note that even if Cousins had taken the initiative and spiked the ball, the next play could easily have ended the exact same way.

But you can't point to that play and tell me that was Cousins making a tough or risky call that would have potentially subjected him to intense criticism or where he had to stick his neck out.

I kind of feel like AllDay, you and I are not talking about the same thing. I'm not criticizing Cousins because I think he can't throw the ball or doesn't escape pressure or even turns it over too much. I'm criticizing him because the decisions I see him make in terms of what to do in a given situation fall short of what the team needs from him in those situations. If he executes that late throw to JJ on 4th down near the goal line against the Chargers, for example, does it matter if the ball is well thrown or JJ catches it? It's short of the goal line, JJ had no prayer of getting it in because he had a defender on him as the ball got there, and the result of that play is going to be turnover on downs in what looked like at the time the last good chance the Vikings would have at going ahead.

I mean, you tell me. Is that what you need from your QB in that situation to win that game?
He's getting criticism because everyone felt the clock it play was the call including KOC. Wasting that time was stupid there is no doubt about that. Was the communication lost or was KOC scrambling for a play. Maybe Cousins choked and couldn't get the play called. He blamed the communication. You would think if there is a tech problem there is a fall back but what is that a hand signal. Cousins makes the call. Who knows what happened. It's a talk in circles at this point.