Vikings at Eagles

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chicagopurple
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Re: Vikings at Eagles

Post by chicagopurple »

Cousins did well given the complete lack of an OL. We have ZERO running game which is no surprise given the absent OL.
Conversely, the whole league will be running down our throat now that our DL has been exposed to be a version of the Emperors New Clothes.
A team that cant stop the run will not get much ball control and therefore much less time to run their offensive scheme.
Its gonna be a long year.
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Re: Vikings at Eagles

Post by CharVike »

I can't believe they covered. Giving up 259 yards rushing is a joke. I know the Eagles have a very good OL but that's alot of yards. JJ's fumble was a killer. All fumbles are bad but that took points off the board. Another prime time night game loss for Cpt. Check Down. That will get the haters fired up. 49ers are the next prime time night game so another loss. We can't play at the point on both sides of the ball. Nice TD by Addison. That was smart by him and Cousins. He was thrown open but it took both players knowing what to do.
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Re: Vikings at Eagles

Post by cmoss84 »

cmoss84 wrote: Thu Sep 14, 2023 1:43 pm Last week's disappointment fuels us and Philly's injuries allow us to stay in the game late.

My prediction is whoever wins the turnover battle wins the game.

27-21.
This was the score with 4 minutes to go...just saying...


We are not nearly as bad as many of you think. We'll stopping fumbling eventually, right?
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Re: Vikings at Eagles

Post by VikingsVictorious »

CharVike wrote: Fri Sep 15, 2023 9:21 am I can't believe they covered. Giving up 259 yards rushing is a joke. I know the Eagles have a very good OL but that's alot of yards. JJ's fumble was a killer. All fumbles are bad but that took points off the board. Another prime time night game loss for Cpt. Check Down. That will get the haters fired up. 49ers are the next prime time night game so another loss. We can't play at the point on both sides of the ball. Nice TD by Addison. That was smart by him and Cousins. He was thrown open but it took both players knowing what to do.
I just want to make sure you are joking about Capt. Check Down. He was bombing them last night. :govikes:
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Re: Vikings at Eagles

Post by CharVike »

VikingsVictorious wrote: Fri Sep 15, 2023 11:51 am
CharVike wrote: Fri Sep 15, 2023 9:21 am I can't believe they covered. Giving up 259 yards rushing is a joke. I know the Eagles have a very good OL but that's alot of yards. JJ's fumble was a killer. All fumbles are bad but that took points off the board. Another prime time night game loss for Cpt. Check Down. That will get the haters fired up. 49ers are the next prime time night game so another loss. We can't play at the point on both sides of the ball. Nice TD by Addison. That was smart by him and Cousins. He was thrown open but it took both players knowing what to do.
I just want to make sure you are joking about Capt. Check Down. He was bombing them last night. :govikes:
I was joking. Kirk is a very good passer and isn't a check down guy as many think. Plus he takes a beating and still suites it up the next week. That's impressive and not easy to do. This comes down to our GM and HC not recognizing our weakness. Continuity is fine if the players are average or above. When they're below average or worse changes need to be made.
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Re: Vikings at Eagles

Post by J. Kapp 11 »

Tell you what. Brian Flores’ idea of playing 3 safeties and 5-10 linebackers and going cover zero virtually every down with 7-8 guys at the LOS is a huge problem.

Jordan Hicks is our biggest linebacker at 230. Everybody else is a glorified safety. If the other team’s guards or center get to the second level, our LBs are toast.

And they always get to the second level because our interior D-linemen just aren’t big and strong enough to keep those guards and center from getting there. Teams are going to run on us just based on our LBs and the fact that Flores loves playing 3 safeties.

And then, when they get tired of fooling around running the ball, they’ll just send a fast guy on a post route and burn our cover zero, just like Smith did last night. Hicks blitzed on the play, but he was so slow that Hurts had enough time to deliver a dime. The back who was supposed to pick up Hicks didn’t even bother. He just checked him and ran to the flat.

Philly toyed with our defense once they figured out that all those guys on the LOS mean little because they’re all SMALL. How do you beat blitz? Run right at it. Especially against midgets.

Yes, the offense had four turnovers. But BFlo’s defense was as much to blame for this loss as the turnovers.
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Re: Vikings at Eagles

Post by cmoss84 »

J. Kapp 11 wrote: Fri Sep 15, 2023 5:48 pm Tell you what. Brian Flores’ idea of playing 3 safeties and 5-10 linebackers and going cover zero virtually every down with 7-8 guys at the LOS is a huge problem.

Jordan Hicks is our biggest linebacker at 230. Everybody else is a glorified safety. If the other team’s guards or center get to the second level, our LBs are toast.

And they always get to the second level because our interior D-linemen just aren’t big and strong enough to keep those guards and center from getting there. Teams are going to run on us just based on our LBs and the fact that Flores loves playing 3 safeties.

And then, when they get tired of fooling around running the ball, they’ll just send a fast guy on a post route and burn our cover zero, just like Smith did last night. Hicks blitzed on the play, but he was so slow that Hurts had enough time to deliver a dime. The back who was supposed to pick up Hicks didn’t even bother. He just checked him and ran to the flat.

Philly toyed with our defense once they figured out that all those guys on the LOS mean little because they’re all SMALL. How do you beat blitz? Run right at it. Especially against midgets.

Yes, the offense had four turnovers. But BFlo’s defense was as much to blame for this loss as the turnovers.
You don't think that the lopsided time of possession had anything to do with their running success? And you don't think the TOs had anything to do with the lopsided TOP? I think Flores is legit. Can't fumble 4 times.
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Re: Vikings at Eagles

Post by VikingsVictorious »

makila wrote: Fri Sep 15, 2023 7:36 am IMHO, it's pretty straight forward.

TOs are a major issue. Doesn't matter if they are lucky, unforced, whatever. You can't turn the ball over this much and expect to be a wining team. It isn't a new idea, the stats prove it over and over.

Oline depth is an issue. Many tried to be positive about this group (myself included). If they really wanted to compete this year, I don't understand not putting some resources into the line. It's where games are consistently won.

Same on defense, my goodness we got man handled on the inside of the dline. Couple plays I recall in the 2nd (yes they were tired, however that's how teams are going to attack us), where the Eagles oline just washed our entire dline out of the play and were on our 2nd level fast. Huge holes and lanes. Teams with good olines and running game are going to pound us up the middle.

The TOs are fixable. It has to start immediately. We're turning the ball over at almost a 1 to/quarter rate. Can not happen.

See what they do to address oline depth with the long week now. Sadly, part of me expects a low level pickup for depth and that's it.

Schedule gets tougher.
Many years ago the Vikings didn't put resources into the offensive line. That is all ancient history. We have invested high draft picks year after year into the offensive line. We got two excellent tackles now. Our attempts at guard and center not so good. Despite how banged up our line was our offense was explosive anyway in the passing game. No rushing game at all, but the passing game just shredded the Eagles.
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Re: Vikings at Eagles

Post by makila »

VikingsVictorious wrote: Fri Sep 15, 2023 8:36 pm
makila wrote: Fri Sep 15, 2023 7:36 am IMHO, it's pretty straight forward.

TOs are a major issue. Doesn't matter if they are lucky, unforced, whatever. You can't turn the ball over this much and expect to be a wining team. It isn't a new idea, the stats prove it over and over.

Oline depth is an issue. Many tried to be positive about this group (myself included). If they really wanted to compete this year, I don't understand not putting some resources into the line. It's where games are consistently won.

Same on defense, my goodness we got man handled on the inside of the dline. Couple plays I recall in the 2nd (yes they were tired, however that's how teams are going to attack us), where the Eagles oline just washed our entire dline out of the play and were on our 2nd level fast. Huge holes and lanes. Teams with good olines and running game are going to pound us up the middle.

The TOs are fixable. It has to start immediately. We're turning the ball over at almost a 1 to/quarter rate. Can not happen.

See what they do to address oline depth with the long week now. Sadly, part of me expects a low level pickup for depth and that's it.

Schedule gets tougher.
Many years ago the Vikings didn't put resources into the offensive line. That is all ancient history. We have invested high draft picks year after year into the offensive line. We got two excellent tackles now. Our attempts at guard and center not so good. Despite how banged up our line was our offense was explosive anyway in the passing game. No rushing game at all, but the passing game just shredded the Eagles.
Agreed, I don't think I said that we hadn't put resources into it. Certainly didn't mean to imply that.

I was talking with a few guys in the chat during the game, and my thoughts (worth nothing, ha) then, and still are that we have an inability to identify and/or develop interior offensive lineman. What I don't get is how it carried over two regimes. It's like its some deep rooted cultural thing. It's weird.

In the last 5 seasons we have invested at least 4, round 1-3, draft picks on interior olinemen. Specifically; Wyatt Davis, Ezra Cleveland, Garrett Bradbury, and Ed Ingram. Every one of them, with the exception of Cleveland to an extent, has failed to develop into their draft capital. We either picked them in the wrong spots (failed to identify) or failed to develop them. I'm not sure which. I fall in the camp of development I think. None of them screamed 'what are you doing??!?!' from what I recall.

The reason I mention Cleveland is I don't think he's a guard. He wasn't coming out of college. It doesn't really fit his frame. His body screams swing tackle type nfl player to me. I never understood the forced move to OG. It was a guy who played like 40 games at OT in college. I think his struggles in the NFL have been induced by the organizational decisions.

Oh yeah, we also spent a 4th on Dru Samia.

We of course also spent some lower, throw dart picks, by Rick in later rounds of those drafts.

We've put draft capital, especially higher picks, into interior offensive lineman, it hasn't worked on really... well... any. The idea we haven't invested in interior lineman in the draft last few years simply isn't a true narrative.

Edit, additional thoughts:
Darrisaw is great. When he's on the field...

What also puzzles me about the run game/line is the desire to try and pound the middle with it being one of the absolute weakest spots on the entire team. And when we run screens it seems like there are always minimal to no blockers out there. I'd be curious if film shows that to be true or not.
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Re: Vikings at Eagles

Post by CharVike »

cmoss84 wrote: Fri Sep 15, 2023 5:54 pm
J. Kapp 11 wrote: Fri Sep 15, 2023 5:48 pm Tell you what. Brian Flores’ idea of playing 3 safeties and 5-10 linebackers and going cover zero virtually every down with 7-8 guys at the LOS is a huge problem.

Jordan Hicks is our biggest linebacker at 230. Everybody else is a glorified safety. If the other team’s guards or center get to the second level, our LBs are toast.

And they always get to the second level because our interior D-linemen just aren’t big and strong enough to keep those guards and center from getting there. Teams are going to run on us just based on our LBs and the fact that Flores loves playing 3 safeties.

And then, when they get tired of fooling around running the ball, they’ll just send a fast guy on a post route and burn our cover zero, just like Smith did last night. Hicks blitzed on the play, but he was so slow that Hurts had enough time to deliver a dime. The back who was supposed to pick up Hicks didn’t even bother. He just checked him and ran to the flat.

Philly toyed with our defense once they figured out that all those guys on the LOS mean little because they’re all SMALL. How do you beat blitz? Run right at it. Especially against midgets.

Yes, the offense had four turnovers. But BFlo’s defense was as much to blame for this loss as the turnovers.
You don't think that the lopsided time of possession had anything to do with their running success? And you don't think the TOs had anything to do with the lopsided TOP? I think Flores is legit. Can't fumble 4 times.
It's hard for me to say Flores is legit. I also can't say this 3 safety BS is working. 44 let a WR run right by him for an easy TD throw from Mayfield. Cover the guy and make Mayfield make a throw. Don't give it to him. Hurts was hitting some deep strikes but that wasn't even needed because they pounded the ball down our throats. But of course when you lose the turnover battle you will lose most game. Flores needs to generate some turnovers.
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Re: Vikings at Eagles

Post by J. Kapp 11 »

cmoss84 wrote: Fri Sep 15, 2023 5:54 pm
J. Kapp 11 wrote: Fri Sep 15, 2023 5:48 pm Tell you what. Brian Flores’ idea of playing 3 safeties and 5-10 linebackers and going cover zero virtually every down with 7-8 guys at the LOS is a huge problem.

Jordan Hicks is our biggest linebacker at 230. Everybody else is a glorified safety. If the other team’s guards or center get to the second level, our LBs are toast.

And they always get to the second level because our interior D-linemen just aren’t big and strong enough to keep those guards and center from getting there. Teams are going to run on us just based on our LBs and the fact that Flores loves playing 3 safeties.

And then, when they get tired of fooling around running the ball, they’ll just send a fast guy on a post route and burn our cover zero, just like Smith did last night. Hicks blitzed on the play, but he was so slow that Hurts had enough time to deliver a dime. The back who was supposed to pick up Hicks didn’t even bother. He just checked him and ran to the flat.

Philly toyed with our defense once they figured out that all those guys on the LOS mean little because they’re all SMALL. How do you beat blitz? Run right at it. Especially against midgets.

Yes, the offense had four turnovers. But BFlo’s defense was as much to blame for this loss as the turnovers.
You don't think that the lopsided time of possession had anything to do with their running success? And you don't think the TOs had anything to do with the lopsided TOP? I think Flores is legit. Can't fumble 4 times.
But that’s my point.

You don’t enjoy such a lopsided TOP unless the defense is allowing you to. You say time of possession dictated their running. I say their ability to run dictated the time of possession.

BFlo may be legit, but the defense gave up a ton last night. Yes, the Vikings had four turnovers. But those four turnovers were far from the only deciding factor. The defense stunk it up against Philly, especially in the second half. Some of that was light personnel, while some was just bad overall playcalling defensively.
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Re: Vikings at Eagles

Post by VikingLord »

J. Kapp 11 wrote: Fri Sep 15, 2023 10:15 pm BFlo may be legit, but the defense gave up a ton last night. Yes, the Vikings had four turnovers. But those four turnovers were far from the only deciding factor. The defense stunk it up against Philly, especially in the second half. Some of that was light personnel, while some was just bad overall playcalling defensively.
I agree with everything you wrote, but especially this part. Scheme is important, as are tendencies, and if what Baker Mayfield said is true about the Bucs having figured out Flores' tendencies by the 2nd half of the opener, that could also explain some of what we saw in the 2nd half against the Eagles when they seemingly ran at will. As we watched that unfold, I told my son I don't think I've seen a pro offense simply exert it's will over a pro defense like that in a very long time. I mean, we're going back to the Redskins with the hogs or maybe one of the early 90's Cowboys teams. But it's been a very long time, because in the modern NFL it's nearly impossible for a defense to be so thoroughly outclassed physically that it makes one think they're watching an early season matchup between Alabama and North Kentucky State. It just doesn't happen anymore.

And yet there it was, in 2023, happening in Philly, and happening not with Emmitt Smith or John Riggins, but freakin' D'Andre Swift. I mean, all due respect to Swift. He's a talented back but I doubt he comes anywhere near repeating that performance the rest of the year. It worked the entire second half. A modern, 2023 pro offense literally ran roughshod over a 2023 pro defense.

What is Flores going to do about this? As you point out, there are personnel deficiencies, sure, and those likely can't be overcome at this point. But can the scheme be adjusted just a bit to compensate? Can the Vikings change *something* to prevent their future opponents from simply repeating what both the Bucs and Eagles have done?

I suppose Flores would argue that style of offense only works if the opponent gets a lead and can sit on the ball, and I can't say he'd be wrong. He should likely be able to count on the offense playing with greater competence and putting more points on the board. KAM has certainly emphasized the talent on that side of the ball, and maybe if they do start to actually perform at a level commensurate with that talent and potential, the defensive scheme won't look so overmatched.

Still, it's a team game and when one side of the ball isn't getting it done the other side has to be able to step up and get off the field. A team that can't do that is fatally flawed and will go nowhere.

I think it is reasonable to believe the Vikings offense and special teams will actually stop giving games away like free mints at the front of a restaurant. When that happens, it's equally possible Flores' defense will look better statistically at least. But these last two performances have underlined the dangers of ignoring one side of the ball in pursuit of high performance on the other side. Flores now has had to find a rabbit in his hat the last two games because it is obvious he won't be able to count on that other side, and so far he's come up empty both times.
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Re: Vikings at Eagles

Post by VikingLord »

Here is an interesting analysis (from the perspective of an Eagles fan) on various aspects of that game. https://www.msn.com/en-us/sports/nfl/ea ... 6348&ei=65

From that analysis I just wanted to quote this particular part related to the ease with which the Eagles ran on the Vikings:
It was just a lot of inside zone from 12 personnel and the Eagles just destroyed the Vikings upfront. I was as happy as anyone to see the Eagles run all over the Vikings, but I do not think this game is going to be similar to many others. The Vikings’ defense had one of the weirdest gameplans I have seen and seemed determined to stop the Eagles' passing game, even if they played some of the lightest boxes I have ever seen. They routinely had 6 in the box against 7 Eagles blockers, and that’s without including Hurts as a rushing threat. It did legitimately feel too easy, and I’m not trying to take anything away from the Eagles’ offense, but just being honest.
I really did feel like Flores just refused to adjust. Either that, or the Vikings are just that undermanned up front, which of the two possibilities is the far less likely. I mean, the Vikings are light and weak up front relatively-speaking, but this is the pros and despite giving up size and strength Flores can trot out physical counters to power inside run teams. He just refused to do so and further, made no adjustments even with the players he had out there. No scheme changes, assignment changes, pre-snap shifts. Nothing. Just line up light and, I guess, expect the Eagles to try to throw it again.

The other weird aspect of Flores scheme to me is how they've been burnt deep two weeks in a row despite playing 3 safeties deep. That I don't understand either. Baker Mayfield burns them in week one, and Jalen Hurts in week two on virtually the same kind of play. If a defense is going to trot out three safeties, shouldn't at least one of those safeties be assigned the deep middle?

The persistent incompetence on defense is just mind boggling. Honestly, I thought it was Donatell last year, but here we are a year later, still light in the front seven and still incompetent and apparently uber-predictable in the defensive backfield. Statistically, the Vikings defense has been better I guess, but they're still conceding big plays, still can't get off the field, still aren't creating turnovers, and still seem to lack any player leadership. Ivan Pace has been a bright spot. Love the way he plays. Beyond that, lots of dumb mistakes, missed tackles, and lackluster play.