The Hockenson Contract Situation

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VikingsVictorious
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Re: The Hockenson Contract Situation

Post by VikingsVictorious »

Maelstrom88 wrote: Thu Aug 31, 2023 3:07 pm
VikingsVictorious wrote: Thu Aug 31, 2023 11:31 am We can't afford to resign Kirk now. We will have the highest paid TE and WR in the NFL starting next year and have nobody to throw them the football. Good luck to them with Jaren Hall as their QB.
I'm not crazy about it either. I think they will let Hunter go and invest all the big contracts on offense. I like Hock but I don't love him. Oh well he's here now so hopefully he can string together a few 1,000 yard seasons and improve his blocking.
Hock caught so many passes for us last year because we used him as a short yardage safety blanket and nothing wrong with that. So now that he's signed what do we do with Mundt and Muse. They will barely see the field. Let's trade somebody.
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Re: The Hockenson Contract Situation

Post by allday1991 »

Apparently Hockenson back feels great now, right after the contract gets signed. Magical, I’m getting bad feels about this for some reason.
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Re: The Hockenson Contract Situation

Post by CharVike »

allday1991 wrote: Fri Sep 01, 2023 5:51 am Apparently Hockenson back feels great now, right after the contract gets signed. Magical, I’m getting bad feels about this for some reason.
The ear infection cleared before the back stuff. I guess the knee was next on the list. But he gave his agent enough time to milk the K man for all he could get. Every player must be laughing there asse$$ off over this play. They all know the script now.
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Re: The Hockenson Contract Situation

Post by VikingsVictorious »

the hockenson deal is a four-year extension beyond 2023 - that's 2024-2027 (4-yrs)...$16.5mm/yr....

the 2023 5th-year option of $9.392 was factored into the deal to lower the cap hit this season...so one could call it a restructured five-year deal at $75.392mm, or $15.078mm/yr....


cap hits are:

$4.92mm - 2023, saves us about $4.4mm this season
$14.1mm
$15.1mm
$19.6mm
$21.6mm - 2027

after seeing the structure I feel better. Not good, but better.
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Re: The Hockenson Contract Situation

Post by Maelstrom88 »

Imo JJ should have got his deal before Hock if they were going to keep both.
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Re: The Hockenson Contract Situation

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Maelstrom88 wrote: Fri Sep 01, 2023 3:11 pm Imo JJ should have got his deal before Hock if they were going to keep both.
if Hock is ready to sign what do you do? Say sorry, but we refuse to sign you until after JJ?
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Re: The Hockenson Contract Situation

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I've been the biggest hater of resigning Hock on the board, but the more I look at the contract it's not as favorable to him as it seems when you first hear highest paid TE in the NFL. It's dressed up to make Hock and his agent look good, but in the end it comes closer to what Spotrac has him valued at 14.4 Million per year. If his play declines at all the Vikings can easily walk away from years 4 and 5 of the deal. Those are the ones that he's getting 19 and 20 million.
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Re: The Hockenson Contract Situation

Post by Maelstrom88 »

VikingsVictorious wrote: Fri Sep 01, 2023 6:20 pm
Maelstrom88 wrote: Fri Sep 01, 2023 3:11 pm Imo JJ should have got his deal before Hock if they were going to keep both.
if Hock is ready to sign what do you do? Say sorry, but we refuse to sign you until after JJ?
Well you prioritize JJ. I'm sure he's ready as well. Make him the highest paid WR and get it over with. I don't understand the hang up. He's going to get whatever he wants so just go ahead and do it.
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Re: The Hockenson Contract Situation

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VikingsVictorious wrote: Fri Sep 01, 2023 6:23 pm I've been the biggest hater of resigning Hock on the board, but the more I look at the contract it's not as favorable to him as it seems when you first hear highest paid TE in the NFL. It's dressed up to make Hock and his agent look good, but in the end it comes closer to what Spotrac has him valued at 14.4 Million per year. If his play declines at all the Vikings can easily walk away from years 4 and 5 of the deal. Those are the ones that he's getting 19 and 20 million.
You also made some good points. The guy is a dump off TE. He avg 8 YAC with us which is nothing to get excited about. Matter of fact it sucks. Mundt could do that or any number of TE's and the price would be cheap. It was an overpay no matter how it's sliced. When he pulled that BS of just standing around in camp while under contract shows what he is. He's a soft player who can't block very good and makes little yardage after contact. He needed to play out the last year of his rookie deal and prove his worth. I thought the guy could run the seam and then break a post or corner. Take a safety out of the action. That opens space for others or he is free.
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Re: The Hockenson Contract Situation

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CharVike wrote: Fri Sep 01, 2023 10:12 pm
VikingsVictorious wrote: Fri Sep 01, 2023 6:23 pm I've been the biggest hater of resigning Hock on the board, but the more I look at the contract it's not as favorable to him as it seems when you first hear highest paid TE in the NFL. It's dressed up to make Hock and his agent look good, but in the end it comes closer to what Spotrac has him valued at 14.4 Million per year. If his play declines at all the Vikings can easily walk away from years 4 and 5 of the deal. Those are the ones that he's getting 19 and 20 million.
You also made some good points. The guy is a dump off TE. He avg 8 YAC with us which is nothing to get excited about. Matter of fact it sucks. Mundt could do that or any number of TE's and the price would be cheap. It was an overpay no matter how it's sliced. When he pulled that BS of just standing around in camp while under contract shows what he is. He's a soft player who can't block very good and makes little yardage after contact. He needed to play out the last year of his rookie deal and prove his worth. I thought the guy could run the seam and then break a post or corner. Take a safety out of the action. That opens space for others or he is free.
There you go again, labeling somebody based on ... what?

He's not a "dump off" tight end. Go back and watch some of last year's games. Are you honestly going to sit there and tell me the TD along the sideline against the Giants was the result of a dump-off? Come on, man. You can't just make an assumption like that. You want to look at stats? Great. Let's look at stats. He averaged 15.2 ypc with Detroit, but only 8.7 with us. Did it ever occur to you that those averages are a function of how he was used by each team, rather than his lack of ability? Of course not. Because this is what you do. You label people.

It get it. You didn't like the stand-in at camp. None of us did. Failing to live up to an agreement you've signed is foreign to most all of us normal humans. But don't make up sh!t to justify being pissed.
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Re: The Hockenson Contract Situation

Post by Cliff »

CharVike wrote: Fri Sep 01, 2023 10:12 pm
VikingsVictorious wrote: Fri Sep 01, 2023 6:23 pm I've been the biggest hater of resigning Hock on the board, but the more I look at the contract it's not as favorable to him as it seems when you first hear highest paid TE in the NFL. It's dressed up to make Hock and his agent look good, but in the end it comes closer to what Spotrac has him valued at 14.4 Million per year. If his play declines at all the Vikings can easily walk away from years 4 and 5 of the deal. Those are the ones that he's getting 19 and 20 million.
You also made some good points. The guy is a dump off TE. He avg 8 YAC with us which is nothing to get excited about. Matter of fact it sucks. Mundt could do that or any number of TE's and the price would be cheap. It was an overpay no matter how it's sliced. When he pulled that BS of just standing around in camp while under contract shows what he is. He's a soft player who can't block very good and makes little yardage after contact. He needed to play out the last year of his rookie deal and prove his worth. I thought the guy could run the seam and then break a post or corner. Take a safety out of the action. That opens space for others or he is free.
The idea that "any number of TEs" including Mundt could do it is silly. We know they can't because they didn't. We had TEs on the roster before him and none of them had the same impact or even close.

He's a top 5 TE in the league. I couldn't find one article that ranks TEs that disagrees.

It's fine to not like him or the contract, but saying just any TE can do what he can is just wrong.
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Re: The Hockenson Contract Situation

Post by CharVike »

J. Kapp 11 wrote: Sat Sep 02, 2023 2:19 pm
CharVike wrote: Fri Sep 01, 2023 10:12 pm
You also made some good points. The guy is a dump off TE. He avg 8 YAC with us which is nothing to get excited about. Matter of fact it sucks. Mundt could do that or any number of TE's and the price would be cheap. It was an overpay no matter how it's sliced. When he pulled that BS of just standing around in camp while under contract shows what he is. He's a soft player who can't block very good and makes little yardage after contact. He needed to play out the last year of his rookie deal and prove his worth. I thought the guy could run the seam and then break a post or corner. Take a safety out of the action. That opens space for others or he is free.
There you go again, labeling somebody based on ... what?

He's not a "dump off" tight end. Go back and watch some of last year's games. Are you honestly going to sit there and tell me the TD along the sideline against the Giants was the result of a dump-off? Come on, man. You can't just make an assumption like that. You want to look at stats? Great. Let's look at stats. He averaged 15.2 ypc with Detroit, but only 8.7 with us. Did it ever occur to you that those averages are a function of how he was used by each team, rather than his lack of ability? Of course not. Because this is what you do. You label people.

It get it. You didn't like the stand-in at camp. None of us did. Failing to live up to an agreement you've signed is foreign to most all of us normal humans. But don't make up sh!t to justify being pissed.
I realize that the type of offense will have an impact on a players stats. I saw the 15 with Detroit. Perhaps he was running deeper routes for them. Or perhaps he was breaking tackles for a change. What pisses me off with the sit in, besides the I don't care from TJ, is our GM stating that this guy is a culture fit. The genius should be smart enough not to say that BS. He needed to justify his trade so he paid whatever for a one dimensional player. There are times when these hold out/ sit ins lead to some type of injury once the guy starts playing. I've seen it before. We are TE heavy on O so they have plenty of other bodies to handle some action until TJ get's into football shape.
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Re: The Hockenson Contract Situation

Post by VikingsVictorious »

CharVike wrote: Sat Sep 02, 2023 4:49 pm
J. Kapp 11 wrote: Sat Sep 02, 2023 2:19 pm
There you go again, labeling somebody based on ... what?

He's not a "dump off" tight end. Go back and watch some of last year's games. Are you honestly going to sit there and tell me the TD along the sideline against the Giants was the result of a dump-off? Come on, man. You can't just make an assumption like that. You want to look at stats? Great. Let's look at stats. He averaged 15.2 ypc with Detroit, but only 8.7 with us. Did it ever occur to you that those averages are a function of how he was used by each team, rather than his lack of ability? Of course not. Because this is what you do. You label people.

It get it. You didn't like the stand-in at camp. None of us did. Failing to live up to an agreement you've signed is foreign to most all of us normal humans. But don't make up sh!t to justify being pissed.
I realize that the type of offense will have an impact on a players stats. I saw the 15 with Detroit. Perhaps he was running deeper routes for them. Or perhaps he was breaking tackles for a change. What pisses me off with the sit in, besides the I don't care from TJ, is our GM stating that this guy is a culture fit. The genius should be smart enough not to say that BS. He needed to justify his trade so he paid whatever for a one dimensional player. There are times when these hold out/ sit ins lead to some type of injury once the guy starts playing. I've seen it before. We are TE heavy on O so they have plenty of other bodies to handle some action until TJ get's into football shape.
I still don't like the signing because I think we have more important players to sign and will not be able to sign them all. If our TE depth is what we think it is Hock's loss would matter, but maybe not as much as Kirk, JJ, Darisaw, Hunter, O'Neill. However, to act like Hock is not good is just wrong.
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Re: The Hockenson Contract Situation

Post by J. Kapp 11 »

VikingsVictorious wrote: Sat Sep 02, 2023 7:47 pm
CharVike wrote: Sat Sep 02, 2023 4:49 pm
I realize that the type of offense will have an impact on a players stats. I saw the 15 with Detroit. Perhaps he was running deeper routes for them. Or perhaps he was breaking tackles for a change. What pisses me off with the sit in, besides the I don't care from TJ, is our GM stating that this guy is a culture fit. The genius should be smart enough not to say that BS. He needed to justify his trade so he paid whatever for a one dimensional player. There are times when these hold out/ sit ins lead to some type of injury once the guy starts playing. I've seen it before. We are TE heavy on O so they have plenty of other bodies to handle some action until TJ get's into football shape.
I still don't like the signing because I think we have more important players to sign and will not be able to sign them all. If our TE depth is what we think it is Hock's loss would matter, but maybe not as much as Kirk, JJ, Darisaw, Hunter, O'Neill. However, to act like Hock is not good is just wrong.
I would argue that Hockenson IS one of the more important players to sign. While his stats are good but not Kelce-great, his impact on the offense is what matters.

Prior to Hockenson’s arrival, Minnesota averaged 6.2 air yards per attempt. After he arrived, it jumped to 8.3 air yards per attempt, the biggest improvement of any team in the NFL. Before Hockenson, the Vikings were 20th in EPA per dropback. After his arrival, they were 8th.

His impact on Justin Jefferson is even more important. Teams focused multiple defenders on JJ because others could be handled one-on-one. Adam Thielen ranked 151st out of 159 receivers in separation. KJ Osborn ranked 120th. Irv Smith did nothing. The Vikings need somebody like Hockenson, who separates easily from LBs and is too big for safeties. Hopefully Addison will help alleviate pressure on JJ, as well. But Hockenson is arguably the important piece.
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Re: The Hockenson Contract Situation

Post by StanM »

If I was still in my twenties and had an opportunity to set myself and my family up damn well better believe it’s my number one priority. When the deal is signed and the ink dry my team loyalty would be outstanding. These guys can lose everything up to and including their life playing this game.

What’s the problem? I temper my expectations and don’t expect these guys to accept less than their position demands. Beyond that I have no influence on personnel decisions. My only job is to decide in September if the team deserves my attention for another season.

When I see people all bent out of shape and angry about it I just don’t get it. We watch football and other sports to relax, not to raise our BP and be upset. Hawk is good, he got paid, nothing more to see here. It’s not my money and he doesn’t give a damn how much my retirement check is. I see no sense in agonizing in Vikings signings of their key players. What am I missing here?