Kirk Cousins wanted three years, Vikings turned him down

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CharVike
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Re: Kirk Cousins wanted three years, Vikings turned him down

Post by CharVike »

StumpHunter wrote: Thu Mar 30, 2023 7:43 am
CharVike wrote: Wed Mar 29, 2023 7:41 pm
Points allowed we were 30 and KC was 18. PPD doesn't count for anything.
Points allowed we were tied for 28th, KC was 16th.

What is wrong with adding more context around a stat? PPG doesn't count for anything either and is essentially trying to do the same thing PPD does, only not as well. It includes TDs scored when the defense isn't even on the field and it doesn't account for offenses that can't sustain drives and constantly put the D on the field. PPD is just the better all around stat for establishing how difficult it is for an offense to overcome the points given up by their D.
You can say Jones isn't very good which is ok it's your opinion. He took a non playoff team to the playoffs as a rookie. He had a bad year last season. It's not over. I wanted Jones. Maybe he is done. It's only year 3. The G men can have that QB. He is a great runner. That only last so long. Sometimes a QB makes WR better. I'm more concerned with our next string of QBs. The other don't mean anything. I just have an opinion. Not everyone will agree.
You can still believe in Mac Jones, I have no issue with that, I just find it funny how inconsistent you appear to be between the two Jones QBs. One Jones has 22 TDs total on the season and leads a pretty mediocre team to a playoff win while the other Jones has 15 TDs total and is unable to take a team with the 4th best scoring D (PPD) to the playoffs period. Yet you say the first Jones is a scrub and are still upset about not drafting the second one?
I like the Giants Jones. The guy was an early pick in the draft and has every physical skill you could want. He's 6' 5" 220 with speed and can throw the ball well. We played him twice and against us I was impressed. We played that stupid soft 3-4 and he looked like a fantastic QB. When we did get any pressure and hurried him he didn't look like the same guy. That's every QB who played the game but he would look to take off and if we had him circled it was over. Didn't really look around for a receiver. That's not good. That's a 4th year guy not some 2nd year guy. Mac Jones could be a duff. He looked like one of the biggest stiffs in the league. Maybe he's done. Something happened between year 1 and 2 and it wasn't good. You expect a progression not a regression. It could be a combination of many things. This is his make or break year. I was pissed because we didn't have a QB behind Cousins. The guy was projected as high as No 3. He had a great college career and won the championship. He showed great passing ability. You can't ignore that like we did. We skipped Rodgers twice and he's a future HOFer. That's another reason why I would have made the pick. Fooled once but not twice. Now we are back on the QB hunt train. Can't wait to see this list of bums that come and go. Decades of that crap is enough for me. I'm to old for that circle jerk.
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Re: Kirk Cousins wanted three years, Vikings turned him down

Post by Pondering Her Percy »

CharVike wrote: Fri Mar 31, 2023 9:00 am
StumpHunter wrote: Thu Mar 30, 2023 7:43 am
Points allowed we were tied for 28th, KC was 16th.

What is wrong with adding more context around a stat? PPG doesn't count for anything either and is essentially trying to do the same thing PPD does, only not as well. It includes TDs scored when the defense isn't even on the field and it doesn't account for offenses that can't sustain drives and constantly put the D on the field. PPD is just the better all around stat for establishing how difficult it is for an offense to overcome the points given up by their D.


You can still believe in Mac Jones, I have no issue with that, I just find it funny how inconsistent you appear to be between the two Jones QBs. One Jones has 22 TDs total on the season and leads a pretty mediocre team to a playoff win while the other Jones has 15 TDs total and is unable to take a team with the 4th best scoring D (PPD) to the playoffs period. Yet you say the first Jones is a scrub and are still upset about not drafting the second one?
I like the Giants Jones. The guy was an early pick in the draft and has every physical skill you could want. He's 6' 5" 220 with speed and can throw the ball well. We played him twice and against us I was impressed. We played that stupid soft 3-4 and he looked like a fantastic QB. When we did get any pressure and hurried him he didn't look like the same guy. That's every QB who played the game but he would look to take off and if we had him circled it was over. Didn't really look around for a receiver. That's not good. That's a 4th year guy not some 2nd year guy. Mac Jones could be a duff. He looked like one of the biggest stiffs in the league. Maybe he's done. Something happened between year 1 and 2 and it wasn't good. You expect a progression not a regression. It could be a combination of many things. This is his make or break year. I was pissed because we didn't have a QB behind Cousins. The guy was projected as high as No 3. He had a great college career and won the championship. He showed great passing ability. You can't ignore that like we did. We skipped Rodgers twice and he's a future HOFer. That's another reason why I would have made the pick. Fooled once but not twice. Now we are back on the QB hunt train. Can't wait to see this list of bums that come and go. Decades of that crap is enough for me. I'm to old for that circle jerk.
Daniel Jones is not a good QB. If anything, he can thank Ed Donatell because our defense was about the only thing Jones ever looked good against. Donatell is a huge reason why he got that contract because he gave the Giants hope in that playoff game against us. Even though he was playing the worst defense in the NFL. If you're going to be picky about our starting QB, the last person you should want/like is Daniel Jones.
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Re: Kirk Cousins wanted three years, Vikings turned him down

Post by CharVike »

Pondering Her Percy wrote: Fri Mar 31, 2023 9:36 am
CharVike wrote: Fri Mar 31, 2023 9:00 am
I like the Giants Jones. The guy was an early pick in the draft and has every physical skill you could want. He's 6' 5" 220 with speed and can throw the ball well. We played him twice and against us I was impressed. We played that stupid soft 3-4 and he looked like a fantastic QB. When we did get any pressure and hurried him he didn't look like the same guy. That's every QB who played the game but he would look to take off and if we had him circled it was over. Didn't really look around for a receiver. That's not good. That's a 4th year guy not some 2nd year guy. Mac Jones could be a duff. He looked like one of the biggest stiffs in the league. Maybe he's done. Something happened between year 1 and 2 and it wasn't good. You expect a progression not a regression. It could be a combination of many things. This is his make or break year. I was pissed because we didn't have a QB behind Cousins. The guy was projected as high as No 3. He had a great college career and won the championship. He showed great passing ability. You can't ignore that like we did. We skipped Rodgers twice and he's a future HOFer. That's another reason why I would have made the pick. Fooled once but not twice. Now we are back on the QB hunt train. Can't wait to see this list of bums that come and go. Decades of that crap is enough for me. I'm to old for that circle jerk.
Daniel Jones is not a good QB. If anything, he can thank Ed Donatell because our defense was about the only thing Jones ever looked good against. Donatell is a huge reason why he got that contract because he gave the Giants hope in that playoff game against us. Even though he was playing the worst defense in the NFL. If you're going to be picky about our starting QB, the last person you should want/like is Daniel Jones.
I never claimed I wanted him. I just pointed out what I saw against our soft 3-4. He was basically unstoppable. Every thing he did worked. The Giants don't really want him either and that's why they turned down year 5 on his rookie deal. I assume they felt he was their best option right now based on the current FA stiffs and what's available in the draft pool.
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Re: Kirk Cousins wanted three years, Vikings turned him down

Post by Pondering Her Percy »

CharVike wrote: Fri Mar 31, 2023 11:19 am
Pondering Her Percy wrote: Fri Mar 31, 2023 9:36 am

Daniel Jones is not a good QB. If anything, he can thank Ed Donatell because our defense was about the only thing Jones ever looked good against. Donatell is a huge reason why he got that contract because he gave the Giants hope in that playoff game against us. Even though he was playing the worst defense in the NFL. If you're going to be picky about our starting QB, the last person you should want/like is Daniel Jones.
I never claimed I wanted him. I just pointed out what I saw against our soft 3-4. He was basically unstoppable. Every thing he did worked. The Giants don't really want him either and that's why they turned down year 5 on his rookie deal. I assume they felt he was their best option right now based on the current FA stiffs and what's available in the draft pool.
That's the thing though is what QB didnt look good against our shell 3-4. What he did didnt impress me at all because just about every QB we faced last year did the same thing. It was laughable how "middle-school" this defense was in terms of scheme and play calling. I really hope Flores gives us a breath of fresh air, because last year was flat out embarrassing when it didnt need to be whatsoever.
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Re: Kirk Cousins wanted three years, Vikings turned him down

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Pondering Her Percy wrote: Fri Mar 31, 2023 9:36 am
CharVike wrote: Fri Mar 31, 2023 9:00 am
I like the Giants Jones. The guy was an early pick in the draft and has every physical skill you could want. He's 6' 5" 220 with speed and can throw the ball well. We played him twice and against us I was impressed. We played that stupid soft 3-4 and he looked like a fantastic QB. When we did get any pressure and hurried him he didn't look like the same guy. That's every QB who played the game but he would look to take off and if we had him circled it was over. Didn't really look around for a receiver. That's not good. That's a 4th year guy not some 2nd year guy. Mac Jones could be a duff. He looked like one of the biggest stiffs in the league. Maybe he's done. Something happened between year 1 and 2 and it wasn't good. You expect a progression not a regression. It could be a combination of many things. This is his make or break year. I was pissed because we didn't have a QB behind Cousins. The guy was projected as high as No 3. He had a great college career and won the championship. He showed great passing ability. You can't ignore that like we did. We skipped Rodgers twice and he's a future HOFer. That's another reason why I would have made the pick. Fooled once but not twice. Now we are back on the QB hunt train. Can't wait to see this list of bums that come and go. Decades of that crap is enough for me. I'm to old for that circle jerk.
Daniel Jones is not a good QB. If anything, he can thank Ed Donatell because our defense was about the only thing Jones ever looked good against. Donatell is a huge reason why he got that contract because he gave the Giants hope in that playoff game against us. Even though he was playing the worst defense in the NFL. If you're going to be picky about our starting QB, the last person you should want/like is Daniel Jones.
He's a bad QB. If Bad QBs are now getting 40 million a year four year contracts our world is really messed up. If that's the market and we can get Kirk for less I would.
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Re: Kirk Cousins wanted three years, Vikings turned him down

Post by StumpHunter »

VikingsVictorious wrote: Mon Apr 03, 2023 12:35 pm
Pondering Her Percy wrote: Fri Mar 31, 2023 9:36 am

Daniel Jones is not a good QB. If anything, he can thank Ed Donatell because our defense was about the only thing Jones ever looked good against. Donatell is a huge reason why he got that contract because he gave the Giants hope in that playoff game against us. Even though he was playing the worst defense in the NFL. If you're going to be picky about our starting QB, the last person you should want/like is Daniel Jones.
He's a bad QB. If Bad QBs are now getting 40 million a year four year contracts our world is really messed up. If that's the market and we can get Kirk for less I would.
He has been a bad QB his first 3 seasons but showed huge improvements in 2022 or he wouldn't have gotten the contract he did. That is without a real threat at WR and a bad oline.

He was sixth in EPA and 6th in QBR this season and while I certainly wouldn't have given him the the deal he got, the Giants gave him that deal in hopes his improvement will continue. If it doesn't and he tops out as a Kirk Cousins level QB, they will regret their decision.
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Re: Kirk Cousins wanted three years, Vikings turned him down

Post by CharVike »

VikingsVictorious wrote: Mon Apr 03, 2023 12:35 pm
Pondering Her Percy wrote: Fri Mar 31, 2023 9:36 am

Daniel Jones is not a good QB. If anything, he can thank Ed Donatell because our defense was about the only thing Jones ever looked good against. Donatell is a huge reason why he got that contract because he gave the Giants hope in that playoff game against us. Even though he was playing the worst defense in the NFL. If you're going to be picky about our starting QB, the last person you should want/like is Daniel Jones.
He's a bad QB. If Bad QBs are now getting 40 million a year four year contracts our world is really messed up. If that's the market and we can get Kirk for less I would.
He isn't a good QB. But that opening game against us the dude had 379 total yards. 301 passing and 78 rushing on 17 carries. That's a true dual threat. But the wheels fell off against the Eagles only 159 total yards. That's pathetic. But to lay it all at his feet is also wrong. There OL is about like ours. Useless against the better defenses. That never helps a QB. Since Jones entered the league his TD passes are 24, 11, 10 and 15. If he hit the FA market would teams be chasing him? I doubt it. The Giants are trying to save face and there is nothing available for an alternative solution.
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Re: Kirk Cousins wanted three years, Vikings turned him down

Post by Pondering Her Percy »

CharVike wrote: Mon Apr 03, 2023 8:23 pm
VikingsVictorious wrote: Mon Apr 03, 2023 12:35 pm
He's a bad QB. If Bad QBs are now getting 40 million a year four year contracts our world is really messed up. If that's the market and we can get Kirk for less I would.
He isn't a good QB. But that opening game against us the dude had 379 total yards. 301 passing and 78 rushing on 17 carries. That's a true dual threat. But the wheels fell off against the Eagles only 159 total yards. That's pathetic. But to lay it all at his feet is also wrong. There OL is about like ours. Useless against the better defenses. That never helps a QB. Since Jones entered the league his TD passes are 24, 11, 10 and 15. If he hit the FA market would teams be chasing him? I doubt it. The Giants are trying to save face and there is nothing available for an alternative solution.
Again, continuing to repeat what he did against the Vikings literally means nothing. Every QB we played carved us up. Jones lived off of quick slants both times we played them because of how soft our coverage was. His intended air yards in the WC round was 5.8, lowest of any QB in the playoffs. His intended air yards against us in week 16 was 6.8 which was in the bottom 4th of the league that week. The guy was a Checkdown Charlie that nickel and dimed us all the way down the field and we did nothing to adjust. So in the end, I dont care how good he looked against us. That literally means nothing.

Jones can thank Ed Donatell for his contract.
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Re: Kirk Cousins wanted three years, Vikings turned him down

Post by CharVike »

Pondering Her Percy wrote: Tue Apr 04, 2023 7:25 am
CharVike wrote: Mon Apr 03, 2023 8:23 pm
He isn't a good QB. But that opening game against us the dude had 379 total yards. 301 passing and 78 rushing on 17 carries. That's a true dual threat. But the wheels fell off against the Eagles only 159 total yards. That's pathetic. But to lay it all at his feet is also wrong. There OL is about like ours. Useless against the better defenses. That never helps a QB. Since Jones entered the league his TD passes are 24, 11, 10 and 15. If he hit the FA market would teams be chasing him? I doubt it. The Giants are trying to save face and there is nothing available for an alternative solution.
Again, continuing to repeat what he did against the Vikings literally means nothing. Every QB we played carved us up. Jones lived off of quick slants both times we played them because of how soft our coverage was. His intended air yards in the WC round was 5.8, lowest of any QB in the playoffs. His intended air yards against us in week 16 was 6.8 which was in the bottom 4th of the league that week. The guy was a Checkdown Charlie that nickel and dimed us all the way down the field and we did nothing to adjust. So in the end, I dont care how good he looked against us. That literally means nothing.

Jones can thank Ed Donatell for his contract.
He shouldn't even be a starter and got 40 million. People will point that his WRs suck. The QB can also help make the WR. The worst part is how bad he tore our D up. We are lucky we got beat. Imagine the beat down a real starting QB would have gave us. Our 41-0 beat down would be in jeopardy. And some fans #### about how bad Kirk is. Live through years of this guy. Plus it's only started.He'll waste 10+ years of drafts.
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Re: Kirk Cousins wanted three years, Vikings turned him down

Post by Pondering Her Percy »

CharVike wrote: Tue Apr 04, 2023 7:09 pm
Pondering Her Percy wrote: Tue Apr 04, 2023 7:25 am

Again, continuing to repeat what he did against the Vikings literally means nothing. Every QB we played carved us up. Jones lived off of quick slants both times we played them because of how soft our coverage was. His intended air yards in the WC round was 5.8, lowest of any QB in the playoffs. His intended air yards against us in week 16 was 6.8 which was in the bottom 4th of the league that week. The guy was a Checkdown Charlie that nickel and dimed us all the way down the field and we did nothing to adjust. So in the end, I dont care how good he looked against us. That literally means nothing.

Jones can thank Ed Donatell for his contract.
He shouldn't even be a starter and got 40 million. People will point that his WRs suck. The QB can also help make the WR. The worst part is how bad he tore our D up. We are lucky we got beat. Imagine the beat down a real starting QB would have gave us. Our 41-0 beat down would be in jeopardy. And some fans #### about how bad Kirk is. Live through years of this guy. Plus it's only started.He'll waste 10+ years of drafts.
who will waste 10+ years of drafts?
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Re: Kirk Cousins wanted three years, Vikings turned him down

Post by StumpHunter »

Pondering Her Percy wrote: Wed Apr 05, 2023 8:42 am
CharVike wrote: Tue Apr 04, 2023 7:09 pm
He shouldn't even be a starter and got 40 million. People will point that his WRs suck. The QB can also help make the WR. The worst part is how bad he tore our D up. We are lucky we got beat. Imagine the beat down a real starting QB would have gave us. Our 41-0 beat down would be in jeopardy. And some fans #### about how bad Kirk is. Live through years of this guy. Plus it's only started.He'll waste 10+ years of drafts.
who will waste 10+ years of drafts?
We will, because apparently if you drafted Christian Ponder before, Christian Ponder level QBs are the best you will get going forward.

On top of that, you have to spend most of your picks on drafting QBs each season once you move on from Kirk Cousins.
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Re: Kirk Cousins wanted three years, Vikings turned him down

Post by Pondering Her Percy »

StumpHunter wrote: Wed Apr 05, 2023 12:08 pm
Pondering Her Percy wrote: Wed Apr 05, 2023 8:42 am

who will waste 10+ years of drafts?
We will, because apparently if you drafted Christian Ponder before, Christian Ponder level QBs are the best you will get going forward.

On top of that, you have to spend most of your picks on drafting QBs each season once you move on from Kirk Cousins.
Yeah definitely disagree with that assessment
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Re: Kirk Cousins wanted three years, Vikings turned him down

Post by StumpHunter »

CharVike wrote: Tue Apr 04, 2023 7:09 pm
Pondering Her Percy wrote: Tue Apr 04, 2023 7:25 am

Again, continuing to repeat what he did against the Vikings literally means nothing. Every QB we played carved us up. Jones lived off of quick slants both times we played them because of how soft our coverage was. His intended air yards in the WC round was 5.8, lowest of any QB in the playoffs. His intended air yards against us in week 16 was 6.8 which was in the bottom 4th of the league that week. The guy was a Checkdown Charlie that nickel and dimed us all the way down the field and we did nothing to adjust. So in the end, I dont care how good he looked against us. That literally means nothing.

Jones can thank Ed Donatell for his contract.
He shouldn't even be a starter and got 40 million. People will point that his WRs suck. The QB can also help make the WR.
True, what WRs did he have on that team that he was holding back?
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Re: Kirk Cousins wanted three years, Vikings turned him down

Post by VikingLord »

CharVike wrote: Mon Apr 03, 2023 8:23 pm
VikingsVictorious wrote: Mon Apr 03, 2023 12:35 pm
He's a bad QB. If Bad QBs are now getting 40 million a year four year contracts our world is really messed up. If that's the market and we can get Kirk for less I would.
He isn't a good QB. But that opening game against us the dude had 379 total yards. 301 passing and 78 rushing on 17 carries. That's a true dual threat. But the wheels fell off against the Eagles only 159 total yards. That's pathetic. But to lay it all at his feet is also wrong. There OL is about like ours. Useless against the better defenses. That never helps a QB. Since Jones entered the league his TD passes are 24, 11, 10 and 15. If he hit the FA market would teams be chasing him? I doubt it. The Giants are trying to save face and there is nothing available for an alternative solution.
The main difference between the Eagles D and the Vikings D as it related to Daniel Jones was the Eagles D didn't let him run when he left the pocket. Donatell did nothing to adjust to that "dual threat" from Jones between the first and second times the two teams played each other last year. As a result, Jones was able to keep drives alive against the Vikings using his legs, while the Eagles forced him to use his arm. The difference in the two results was as stark as the stats you cited indicate.

IMHO, Jones is unlikely to ever become a great pro QB. After several years in the league he's failed to evolve. He's still primarily a first read QB who runs if flushed from the pocket. Generally speaking, those types of QBs are easier to defend even if they have strong arms and are fairly accurate. The fact that Donatell made him look good twice doesn't change that from my perspective.

On the bright side, Jones isn't going to get the Giants anywhere near a Superbowl appearance in the future either. He's as much a high-priced dead ender at the position as Cousins.
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Re: Kirk Cousins wanted three years, Vikings turned him down

Post by CharVike »

VikingLord wrote: Wed Apr 05, 2023 2:27 pm
CharVike wrote: Mon Apr 03, 2023 8:23 pm
He isn't a good QB. But that opening game against us the dude had 379 total yards. 301 passing and 78 rushing on 17 carries. That's a true dual threat. But the wheels fell off against the Eagles only 159 total yards. That's pathetic. But to lay it all at his feet is also wrong. There OL is about like ours. Useless against the better defenses. That never helps a QB. Since Jones entered the league his TD passes are 24, 11, 10 and 15. If he hit the FA market would teams be chasing him? I doubt it. The Giants are trying to save face and there is nothing available for an alternative solution.
The main difference between the Eagles D and the Vikings D as it related to Daniel Jones was the Eagles D didn't let him run when he left the pocket. Donatell did nothing to adjust to that "dual threat" from Jones between the first and second times the two teams played each other last year. As a result, Jones was able to keep drives alive against the Vikings using his legs, while the Eagles forced him to use his arm. The difference in the two results was as stark as the stats you cited indicate.

IMHO, Jones is unlikely to ever become a great pro QB. After several years in the league he's failed to evolve. He's still primarily a first read QB who runs if flushed from the pocket. Generally speaking, those types of QBs are easier to defend even if they have strong arms and are fairly accurate. The fact that Donatell made him look good twice doesn't change that from my perspective.

On the bright side, Jones isn't going to get the Giants anywhere near a Superbowl appearance in the future either. He's as much a high-priced dead ender at the position as Cousins.
That's a good point about the running. I was shocked at 17 carries and I thought that was a norm. It isn't. But never say never. The Giants could build a D and develop an OL eventually and his style might fit and he'll get them there. Like us their core team has too many holes to even think SB at this point. They could make the playoffs and win 1 but eventually get embarrassed.