Can we talk Tight Ends?

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CharVike
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Re: Can we talk Tight Ends?

Post by CharVike »

VikingLord wrote: Tue Sep 20, 2022 4:51 pm
StumpHunter wrote: Tue Sep 20, 2022 3:22 pm
It seemed like who ever was running the underneath route last night was just the player who was always targeted.

The funny thing is, since finding a quality starting TE is so hard in the NFL, he was still 17th amongst TEs with his 36 yards. Probably a good reason not to let Conklin walk like they did.
I think blaming the TE is missing the forest for the trees.

The short routes were targeted because Cousins was panicked and locked on to them. It had almost nothing to do with the particular player running the short route.

There was one play in the 2nd half I believe where JJ lined up in the backfield opposite Cook with Cousins between them. After the snap, JJ runs to his right and down the field and is literally uncovered the whole way, while Cook ran to his left and the Vikings attempted to set up a screen. Honest to god, it looked like Philly both knew what the play call was on that play and knew that Cousins would not even check to see if JJ was covered because the Philly defense played it perfectly. And sure enough, JJ runs wide open for what might have even been a TD had Cousins thrown it his way, while Cook was mobbed immediately. Cousins never looked off Cook, either. Just nuts.

This happened all night long, too, and honestly, it happened for most of the game against the Packers as well. The difference there was JJ made some things happen after the catch, but even in that game the focus was on JJ. Almost nobody else was targeted. Against the Eagles, it was the short or safety valve routes.

I really thought Cousins would thrive under KOC and a new scheme. Unfortunately, he is who he is. Warner has him dead to rights in his analysis, as do opposing defenses. If the Lions have even half a brain, they'll pressure the crap out of him and jump every short route all game.
If a screen is called I think most QBs will go with the play that is called. I don't recall too many plays were the QB comes off the screen and looks for a WR down field unless it's a fake roll screen. The OL players release the pass rush and head up field to block. The QB is dead meat at that point and needs to get rid of it with some loft to the screen receiver. Too much wait and the OL is downfield which is a penalty. JJ should be the focus. He's our play maker. Our problem was him not getting separation from the CB. But you should still throw it to him. Top WRs will get the ball when covered. I seen it when AC played and remember Madden saying just throw him the ball. He can still get it if covered by 1 or 2 or 3 guys. He can make plays. You need to blame the TE for costing us a TD. Those plays don't happen very often and when they are there the play needs to be made if you want to win.
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Re: Can we talk Tight Ends?

Post by J. Kapp 11 »

fiestavike wrote: Mon Sep 12, 2022 2:55 pm
Maelstrom88 wrote: Mon Sep 12, 2022 12:45 pm Irv has been very disappointing so far in his career. It's only one game but that's a position that could use some new blood next year if KOC plans on utilizing it much.
Irv Smith is not very good. He is athletic and can make some hay on crossing routes, but he had one of the worst combine performances I have ever seen when trying to adjust to make catches downfield or catch over the shoulder. That lack of versatility might hurt his ceiling pretty badly as an NFL player. He can't really take advantage of his athleticism in some ways that would make him more of a weapon.
Holy heck. That's eerie.

I mean, that's the drop against Philly to a tee.
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Re: Can we talk Tight Ends?

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I'll add this though.

If Irv Smith catches that pass, he ends up with 6 receptions for 99 yards and 2 TDs.

And NOBODY on this board is saying he's a bust.

Life and football are funny.
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Re: Can we talk Tight Ends?

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J. Kapp 11 wrote: Wed Sep 21, 2022 5:41 pm I'll add this though.

If Irv Smith catches that pass, he ends up with 6 receptions for 99 yards and 2 TDs.

And NOBODY on this board is saying he's a bust.

Life and football are funny.
Very true. After falling for some of Zimmer's wins last year, and then getting my heart jerked out in the next game or two, I promised I wouldn't be overly optimistic like that again. And yet the first chance I get, after the Packer win, I did it again. My heart cant take that. Literally. And if the Lions beat us again, all hope is lost.
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Re: Can we talk Tight Ends?

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CharVike wrote: Wed Sep 21, 2022 1:02 pm If a screen is called I think most QBs will go with the play that is called. I don't recall too many plays were the QB comes off the screen and looks for a WR down field unless it's a fake roll screen. The OL players release the pass rush and head up field to block. The QB is dead meat at that point and needs to get rid of it with some loft to the screen receiver. Too much wait and the OL is downfield which is a penalty. JJ should be the focus. He's our play maker. Our problem was him not getting separation from the CB. But you should still throw it to him. Top WRs will get the ball when covered. I seen it when AC played and remember Madden saying just throw him the ball. He can still get it if covered by 1 or 2 or 3 guys. He can make plays. You need to blame the TE for costing us a TD. Those plays don't happen very often and when they are there the play needs to be made if you want to win.
I don't fault Cousins for reading Cook as the 1st receiving option on that play. What I do fault him for is not coming off the read when it was clear the Eagles had it covered. If he is under immediate pressure just throw it away. The main responsibility for the QB on any play is to avoid negative plays. 10 year vets like Cousins should be able to do that. If it was someone like Mond forcing it on that play, I could understand it maybe, but Cousins should not be doing that.

Along those lines, why line JJ up in the backfield and have him run a route to the backside at all on that play? I mean, he was uncovered. He's an easy read if Cousins comes off the screen, and I think Cousins did have time to make that read and just didn't do that. If KOC wants to run that screen play no matter what, then at least have JJ go in motion to the screen side so he can help block. Having him run a route to the opposite side that fools nobody is not making the screen more likely to succeed in my view.

The more I watch replays of the game, the more it appears Cousins was just in that panic mode he goes into in certain games. He looks like he just wants the ball out of his hands as quickly as possible on passing plays, and he laser locks in on his intended receiver and throws it there. Since that usually is the short route, a defensive coordinator is going to tell his DBs and LBs in coverage to read the short routes and jump them looking for breakups and picks, which is exactly what the Eagles did to Cousins pretty much the whole game. I don't know why the Packers didn't do the same, but it seems clear if a defense can spook Cousins into panic mode, he telegraphs everything he's going to do and plays predictably to the point where the defense literally doesn't have to worry about anything going over their heads.

We'll see if the Lions can spook him.
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Re: Can we talk Tight Ends?

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J. Kapp 11 wrote: Wed Sep 21, 2022 5:32 pm
fiestavike wrote: Mon Sep 12, 2022 2:55 pm

Irv Smith is not very good. He is athletic and can make some hay on crossing routes, but he had one of the worst combine performances I have ever seen when trying to adjust to make catches downfield or catch over the shoulder. That lack of versatility might hurt his ceiling pretty badly as an NFL player. He can't really take advantage of his athleticism in some ways that would make him more of a weapon.
Holy heck. That's eerie.

I mean, that's the drop against Philly to a tee.
It is, and it's one of the reasons it doesn't make sense to have the TE running that route.

Maybe Smith was catching everything over the top of his shoulder all week in practice. There were other drops in the game too so whatever ailed the Vikings wasn't limited to Smith, but man, what a critical blunder.
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Re: Can we talk Tight Ends?

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VikingLord wrote: Wed Sep 21, 2022 6:50 pm
J. Kapp 11 wrote: Wed Sep 21, 2022 5:32 pm
Holy heck. That's eerie.

I mean, that's the drop against Philly to a tee.
It is, and it's one of the reasons it doesn't make sense to have the TE running that route.

Maybe Smith was catching everything over the top of his shoulder all week in practice. There were other drops in the game too so whatever ailed the Vikings wasn't limited to Smith, but man, what a critical blunder.
Right. And the timing of it was so bad. We could have started a comeback with that TD, and maybe Cousins doesnt get so rattled (as he always does when hes pressured) and throws picks that drained any hope of us making a comeback.
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Re: Can we talk Tight Ends?

Post by J. Kapp 11 »

VikingLord wrote: Wed Sep 21, 2022 6:50 pm
J. Kapp 11 wrote: Wed Sep 21, 2022 5:32 pm
Holy heck. That's eerie.

I mean, that's the drop against Philly to a tee.
It is, and it's one of the reasons it doesn't make sense to have the TE running that route.

Maybe Smith was catching everything over the top of his shoulder all week in practice. There were other drops in the game too so whatever ailed the Vikings wasn't limited to Smith, but man, what a critical blunder.
Wait, what?

Smith is fast for a tight end. KOC wants to be multiple and have players playing all over the field, which stresses the defense. And the fact that he was wide open shows that it was exactly the route he should’ve run.

He just needed to catch the darned thing.
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Re: Can we talk Tight Ends?

Post by CharVike »

VikingLord wrote: Wed Sep 21, 2022 6:48 pm
CharVike wrote: Wed Sep 21, 2022 1:02 pm If a screen is called I think most QBs will go with the play that is called. I don't recall too many plays were the QB comes off the screen and looks for a WR down field unless it's a fake roll screen. The OL players release the pass rush and head up field to block. The QB is dead meat at that point and needs to get rid of it with some loft to the screen receiver. Too much wait and the OL is downfield which is a penalty. JJ should be the focus. He's our play maker. Our problem was him not getting separation from the CB. But you should still throw it to him. Top WRs will get the ball when covered. I seen it when AC played and remember Madden saying just throw him the ball. He can still get it if covered by 1 or 2 or 3 guys. He can make plays. You need to blame the TE for costing us a TD. Those plays don't happen very often and when they are there the play needs to be made if you want to win.
I don't fault Cousins for reading Cook as the 1st receiving option on that play. What I do fault him for is not coming off the read when it was clear the Eagles had it covered. If he is under immediate pressure just throw it away. The main responsibility for the QB on any play is to avoid negative plays. 10 year vets like Cousins should be able to do that. If it was someone like Mond forcing it on that play, I could understand it maybe, but Cousins should not be doing that.

Along those lines, why line JJ up in the backfield and have him run a route to the backside at all on that play? I mean, he was uncovered. He's an easy read if Cousins comes off the screen, and I think Cousins did have time to make that read and just didn't do that. If KOC wants to run that screen play no matter what, then at least have JJ go in motion to the screen side so he can help block. Having him run a route to the opposite side that fools nobody is not making the screen more likely to succeed in my view.

The more I watch replays of the game, the more it appears Cousins was just in that panic mode he goes into in certain games. He looks like he just wants the ball out of his hands as quickly as possible on passing plays, and he laser locks in on his intended receiver and throws it there. Since that usually is the short route, a defensive coordinator is going to tell his DBs and LBs in coverage to read the short routes and jump them looking for breakups and picks, which is exactly what the Eagles did to Cousins pretty much the whole game. I don't know why the Packers didn't do the same, but it seems clear if a defense can spook Cousins into panic mode, he telegraphs everything he's going to do and plays predictably to the point where the defense literally doesn't have to worry about anything going over their heads.

We'll see if the Lions can spook him.
You make valid points. I have also seen screens that look dead and the back make a move and off to the races. Cooks an explosive player he can make a guy miss. I think JJ went to the opposite side to pull a safety away from the screen. QBs get spooked. Rodgers looked spooked against us week 1. He looked spooked round 1 in the playoffs against the 49ers last year. Against the Eagles our whole team looked spooked and flat. We couldn't even get the ground game going and then we didn't even bother using it that much once it was stuffed.
If the Lions blow up our OL we will have problems moving the ball. They have a very good edge rusher and in the middle our C and RG are poor pass blockers so they will bring guys in that gap just like Kapp said the Eagles did in the 2nd half. Our offense never made a play to turn the momentum our way on the road. That drop by our TE butter fingers Smith was a play we needed to give a spark and get the mo on our side. That was a TD. Smith looked spooked also.
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Re: Can we talk Tight Ends?

Post by soflavike »

The Detroit game did not make the TE situation look any clearer. Ellefson got some snaps and made some plays, Irv Smith was inconsistent again and Johnny Mundt didn't have much action as a receiver. Looks like KOC will just platoon these three guys as they seem pretty interchangeable.
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Re: Can we talk Tight Ends?

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soflavike wrote: Mon Sep 26, 2022 1:46 pm The Detroit game did not make the TE situation look any clearer. Ellefson got some snaps and made some plays, Irv Smith was inconsistent again and Johnny Mundt didn't have much action as a receiver. Looks like KOC will just platoon these three guys as they seem pretty interchangeable.
This is really what surprises me. KO is some offensive genius, but he didnt see how poor our TE's were in the passing game? Theres more to TE's than having them block. Irv is a liability now. I hope Mudnt's get the reps cause Irv isnt getting it done. I guess it doesnt help that the WRs wearnt a big factor until the 4th quarter.
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Re: Can we talk Tight Ends?

Post by J. Kapp 11 »

Tell you what, don't sleep on Johnny Mundt.

He didn't get a lot of opportunities yesterday, but he looked very fluid both catching the ball and running after the catch. He reminds me of Kyle Rudolph in build, but he runs better.

Not saying Travis Kelce has competition for All Pro, but I think Mundt could be a serviceable tight end or better. And ... he knows the offense, having come from the Rams.
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Re: Can we talk Tight Ends?

Post by J. Kapp 11 »

The Vikings have signed free agent tight end Jacob Hollister to their practice squad.

Hollister is only 28 and not your run-of-the-mill practice-squad tight end. In 2019 he tallied 41 receptions for 349 yards and 3 TDs with the Seahawks. He put up six catches for 44 yards in Seattle’s 37-30 win over the Vikings in December of that season.

Curious signing. The Vikes already have Irv, Mundt and Elefson on the active roster. Wonder if something is in the works. Trade coming? Tired of Irv’s drops?
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