Vikings trade 7th round pick for Raiders' QB Nick Mullens

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Re: Vikings trade 7th round pick for Raiders' QB Nick Mullens

Post by VikingLord »

CharVike wrote: Tue Aug 23, 2022 12:08 pm
VikingLord wrote: Tue Aug 23, 2022 11:16 am

I agree. I know a lot of people on here are happy with Mullens but I just don't see anything very exciting there. Yes, he's played in a good number of pro games and thrown a decent number of TDs in those games, but he's almost even in terms of picks he's thrown. I also see nothing special about him physically. He seems like a slightly more talented version of Mannion.

I still think Mond should be getting a serious look at #2, and I hope KOC gives him that chance.
Mullen is 6'1" with a pop gun arm. There's nothing to get excited about. Mannion is 6'6" with a strong arm. At least he can throw a football which will keep the defense back and he has good height which can't hurt. Looks like it's a 3 way battle now. They are almost better off keeping Mullen because he has game experience. I have no fight in this battle. It don't matter to me. The coaches see these guys day in and out. Maybe they will agree to just flip a coin. Mond just started so he's getting the chance. KOC felt we needed to bring Mullen in to compete. Something forced him to do that.
I think KOC alluded to that in his post-game comments where he talked not about Mond throwing the first pick as much as Mond just making a less risky decision given he felt the offense was in field goal range there.

Still, I've never know a great NFL QB who played it safe all the time. When I watched that first pick again, the intended receiver was actually open and breaking deep, and had Mond gotten a half second more before the pressure reached him I'm sure he would have hit a highlight reel throw there. That he didn't is partially on Mond for trying something he saw but couldn't hit due to the pressure, and partly on the OL for allowing the pressure.

But this is an experience thing, not a recognition thing. In other words, Mond saw the right thing. He just didn't get the ball out soon enough. As he gains experience he'll recognize the pressure sooner and learn how to either evade it to buy time to hit the receiver or avoid it and look for a different receiver. That experience can only come from playing the game.

If Mond had just made a bad read there, which he didn't, I'd be inclined to agree with a lot of others that maybe he isn't cut out to be QB #2, but the read was right. It was the execution of the read that was lacking, and the pressure on him was a big part of that failure in execution. All QBs struggle when under pressure, including the greats, so I'm willing to cut Mond slack.
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Re: Vikings trade 7th round pick for Raiders' QB Nick Mullens

Post by Texas Vike »

StumpHunter wrote: Tue Aug 23, 2022 8:38 am
I don't think this is a bad move, I just think compared to what we have at TE at the 2 and 3 spots, guys who will actually contribute even if the starter stays healthy, upgrading at QB 2 with a guy who is still really bad is pretty pointless.
QB 2 is more important than TE 2 in today's NFL.
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Re: Vikings trade 7th round pick for Raiders' QB Nick Mullens

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VikingLord wrote: Tue Aug 23, 2022 3:32 pm
VikingsVictorious wrote: Tue Aug 23, 2022 1:51 pm

KOC has given Mond that chance. As stated in A Knight's Tale he has been weighed, he has been measured and he has been found absolutely lacking. I'm not saying cut him immediately, but it won't bother me if they do.
So after a rookie season where he didn't play and two preseason games where he did, one of which he made some nice throws and plays and the other where he made some mistakes, the jury is in on him from your perspective?

VikingsFan84 and you are tough customers!
I'm not saying cut him immediately, but it won't bother me if they do. It's always possible somebody a team cuts can come back to haunt them. Decisions have to be made.
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Re: Vikings trade 7th round pick for Raiders' QB Nick Mullens

Post by FullWood »

This trade confuses me on what they would do. Sometimes I don't think QB2 is that important for us because Cousins is so durable and i expect an upgrade on our O-Line. Are we really just going to cut Mannion and Mond and hope at least Mond makes the practice squad and not claimed
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Re: Vikings trade 7th round pick for Raiders' QB Nick Mullens

Post by StumpHunter »

Texas Vike wrote: Tue Aug 23, 2022 3:50 pm
StumpHunter wrote: Tue Aug 23, 2022 8:38 am
I don't think this is a bad move, I just think compared to what we have at TE at the 2 and 3 spots, guys who will actually contribute even if the starter stays healthy, upgrading at QB 2 with a guy who is still really bad is pretty pointless.
QB 2 is more important than TE 2 in today's NFL.
Because of Covid causing QBs to miss games? Even with that QB2s made very little impact last season

Here are the QBs and the records of each playoff team's QB2's during the regular season this past year.
Jordan Love: 0-1
Cooper Rush: 1-0
Colt McCoy: 2-1
Trey Lance: 1-1
Gardner Minshew: 1-1
Brandon Allen: 0-1
Mason Rudolph: 0-0-1

A combined 5-5-1 from playoff team QB2s and many of those wins the team rallied around the backup where even Mannion could have won. Not super impactful even with a number starters missing games due to Covid.

Now if you have an injury prone QB like Jimmy G, an older QB like Brady, a running QB like Jackson, or an unproven guy on the verge of losing his starting job like Jones, sure, you need a quality backup. But for guys like Rodgers, Wilson, Mahomes, Allen, Ryan, Stafford or Cousins a quality backups would be last on my list of needs. Drafting a guy to replace a Ryan or Cousins eventually sure, that makes sense, but none of the 3 M's are going to contribute to this team doing anything this year, so I just don't care who backs up the QB. Defensive linemen are not allowed to touch these guys and QBs seem to either miss no games or a bunch of games and at that point the season is over anyway.
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Re: Vikings trade 7th round pick for Raiders' QB Nick Mullens

Post by Texas Vike »

StumpHunter wrote: Wed Aug 24, 2022 2:38 pm
Texas Vike wrote: Tue Aug 23, 2022 3:50 pm

QB 2 is more important than TE 2 in today's NFL.
Because of Covid causing QBs to miss games? Even with that QB2s made very little impact last season

Here are the QBs and the records of each playoff team's QB2's during the regular season this past year.
Jordan Love: 0-1
Cooper Rush: 1-0
Colt McCoy: 2-1
Trey Lance: 1-1
Gardner Minshew: 1-1
Brandon Allen: 0-1
Mason Rudolph: 0-0-1

A combined 5-5-1 from playoff team QB2s and many of those wins the team rallied around the backup where even Mannion could have won. Not super impactful even with a number starters missing games due to Covid.

Now if you have an injury prone QB like Jimmy G, an older QB like Brady, a running QB like Jackson, or an unproven guy on the verge of losing his starting job like Jones, sure, you need a quality backup. But for guys like Rodgers, Wilson, Mahomes, Allen, Ryan, Stafford or Cousins a quality backups would be last on my list of needs. Drafting a guy to replace a Ryan or Cousins eventually sure, that makes sense, but none of the 3 M's are going to contribute to this team doing anything this year, so I just don't care who backs up the QB. Defensive linemen are not allowed to touch these guys and QBs seem to either miss no games or a bunch of games and at that point the season is over anyway.
So you're lamenting that they didn't use that 7th round conditional pick on a TE2 instead? OK. We differ here, but there's much more important things to discuss.
Lots of good podcast episodes lately (Purple Daily, Access Vikings, Purple Insider --can't stand Coller, but he was recently joined by Ben Goessling who is solid) and Colin Cowherd's interview of KOC was great:
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ftD50R7cXR0
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Re: Vikings trade 7th round pick for Raiders' QB Nick Mullens

Post by Texas Vike »

VikingLord wrote: Tue Aug 23, 2022 3:40 pm
CharVike wrote: Tue Aug 23, 2022 12:08 pm
Mullen is 6'1" with a pop gun arm. There's nothing to get excited about. Mannion is 6'6" with a strong arm. At least he can throw a football which will keep the defense back and he has good height which can't hurt. Looks like it's a 3 way battle now. They are almost better off keeping Mullen because he has game experience. I have no fight in this battle. It don't matter to me. The coaches see these guys day in and out. Maybe they will agree to just flip a coin. Mond just started so he's getting the chance. KOC felt we needed to bring Mullen in to compete. Something forced him to do that.
I think KOC alluded to that in his post-game comments where he talked not about Mond throwing the first pick as much as Mond just making a less risky decision given he felt the offense was in field goal range there.

Still, I've never know a great NFL QB who played it safe all the time. When I watched that first pick again, the intended receiver was actually open and breaking deep, and had Mond gotten a half second more before the pressure reached him I'm sure he would have hit a highlight reel throw there. That he didn't is partially on Mond for trying something he saw but couldn't hit due to the pressure, and partly on the OL for allowing the pressure.

But this is an experience thing, not a recognition thing. In other words, Mond saw the right thing. He just didn't get the ball out soon enough. As he gains experience he'll recognize the pressure sooner and learn how to either evade it to buy time to hit the receiver or avoid it and look for a different receiver. That experience can only come from playing the game.

If Mond had just made a bad read there, which he didn't, I'd be inclined to agree with a lot of others that maybe he isn't cut out to be QB #2, but the read was right. It was the execution of the read that was lacking, and the pressure on him was a big part of that failure in execution. All QBs struggle when under pressure, including the greats, so I'm willing to cut Mond slack.
It's funny, Judd Zulgad recently spoke about that first INT and how fans often want to blame EVERYTHING except the QB for these kinds of plays (the protection, the WR, the wind...) but that Judd loved KOC's reaction to it (I believe in the very interview you are mentioning): which was that there was nothing odd about that situation. Mond had plenty of time, decent protection, and just needed to make that throw. In other words, no apologies or justifying Mond's bad pick there. I personally thought that the 2nd interception was even worse.

To me, it looks like the game just hasn't slowed down for him yet. He processes slowly and doesn't see the field well. He shows flashes from time to time, but not enough to be a QB2. He's PS material IMO. I'd cut Mannion and try to get Mond to PS.
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Re: Vikings trade 7th round pick for Raiders' QB Nick Mullens

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Texas Vike wrote: Wed Aug 24, 2022 3:45 pm It's funny, Judd Zulgad recently spoke about that first INT and how fans often want to blame EVERYTHING except the QB for these kinds of plays (the protection, the WR, the wind...) but that Judd loved KOC's reaction to it (I believe in the very interview you are mentioning): which was that there was nothing odd about that situation. Mond had plenty of time, decent protection, and just needed to make that throw. In other words, no apologies or justifying Mond's bad pick there. I personally thought that the 2nd interception was even worse.

To me, it looks like the game just hasn't slowed down for him yet. He processes slowly and doesn't see the field well. He shows flashes from time to time, but not enough to be a QB2. He's PS material IMO. I'd cut Mannion and try to get Mond to PS.
Yeah, I agree with Zulgad overall (except on him having plenty of time on that play) and don't absolve Mond for the result, but lots of QBs, including very experienced ones, make those same mistakes. They see a route coming open and target it, but don't anticipate a defender getting to them in time to disrupt the throw. The ball comes out and is going to the right target, but it's affected enough that the defensive back ends up in perfect position to make an easy pick.

Mond didn't fail to see the right thing - he just failed to execute on it. There is a difference and, especially for a young QB who is still learning and gaining experience, it's a understandable outcome.

The 2nd pick was worse, but I've seen Cousins make the same kind of throws with the same result. He put it up and gave the receiver a 50-50 ball essentially that was picked. He knew it would be a 50-50 ball when he released it. If KOC or the OC wants to throw him under the bus for doing that on a play that likely had that route as the primary route, so be it. It's a judgment call in the end, but as I wrote in one of my previous posts on this subject, I'd much rather have a QB who is willing to take some chances to create a big play than a QB who plays it safe all the time. It wasn't a terrible throw. Maybe it could have been deeper and more towards the sideline, but Mond took a chance later in a game the Vikings were losing.

I seem to be in the minority here in regards to Mond. Some would be OK just cutting him at this point, while most seem very neutral on him. While I agree he's not ready to take on QB 2 yet, I see a lot of things that are very positive in terms of ceiling and potential. I want to see how he performs in the last preseason game. If the Vikings tuck him on the PS for a year that is fine provided he clears waivers, which he probably will (although in a QB hungry league that is far from assured). But I know that Mullens isn't the future of the franchise at QB, and neither is Mannion, while Mond, for all his current deficiencies, still could be, so hopefully the Vikings don't cut bait on him too quickly or I could see them living to regret it.
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Re: Vikings trade 7th round pick for Raiders' QB Nick Mullens

Post by J. Kapp 11 »

Texas Vike wrote: Wed Aug 24, 2022 3:45 pm
VikingLord wrote: Tue Aug 23, 2022 3:40 pm

I think KOC alluded to that in his post-game comments where he talked not about Mond throwing the first pick as much as Mond just making a less risky decision given he felt the offense was in field goal range there.

Still, I've never know a great NFL QB who played it safe all the time. When I watched that first pick again, the intended receiver was actually open and breaking deep, and had Mond gotten a half second more before the pressure reached him I'm sure he would have hit a highlight reel throw there. That he didn't is partially on Mond for trying something he saw but couldn't hit due to the pressure, and partly on the OL for allowing the pressure.

But this is an experience thing, not a recognition thing. In other words, Mond saw the right thing. He just didn't get the ball out soon enough. As he gains experience he'll recognize the pressure sooner and learn how to either evade it to buy time to hit the receiver or avoid it and look for a different receiver. That experience can only come from playing the game.

If Mond had just made a bad read there, which he didn't, I'd be inclined to agree with a lot of others that maybe he isn't cut out to be QB #2, but the read was right. It was the execution of the read that was lacking, and the pressure on him was a big part of that failure in execution. All QBs struggle when under pressure, including the greats, so I'm willing to cut Mond slack.
It's funny, Judd Zulgad recently spoke about that first INT and how fans often want to blame EVERYTHING except the QB for these kinds of plays (the protection, the WR, the wind...) but that Judd loved KOC's reaction to it (I believe in the very interview you are mentioning): which was that there was nothing odd about that situation. Mond had plenty of time, decent protection, and just needed to make that throw. In other words, no apologies or justifying Mond's bad pick there. I personally thought that the 2nd interception was even worse.

To me, it looks like the game just hasn't slowed down for him yet. He processes slowly and doesn't see the field well. He shows flashes from time to time, but not enough to be a QB2. He's PS material IMO. I'd cut Mannion and try to get Mond to PS.
Yeah, I loved KOC’s take on this. Even if his protection wasn’t perfect, the coach’s point was that protection rarely is perfect. An NFL quarterback has to find a way to get the ball out, whether that’s changing his arm angle, taking a step one way or the other, or something else. Unfortunately, Mond didn’t do that.

However, as VL said, that’s no reason to cut him. His rookie season was a complete loss, with nobody making the effort to develop him, so he’s essentially a rookie right now. Any rookie might have done the same thing. The smart move here is to either keep him on the 53 as QB3, or try and sneak him through to the practice squad and continue working to develop him. Mannion is as good as gone.
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Re: Vikings trade 7th round pick for Raiders' QB Nick Mullens

Post by Texas Vike »

J. Kapp 11 wrote: Wed Aug 24, 2022 5:23 pm
Texas Vike wrote: Wed Aug 24, 2022 3:45 pm

It's funny, Judd Zulgad recently spoke about that first INT and how fans often want to blame EVERYTHING except the QB for these kinds of plays (the protection, the WR, the wind...) but that Judd loved KOC's reaction to it (I believe in the very interview you are mentioning): which was that there was nothing odd about that situation. Mond had plenty of time, decent protection, and just needed to make that throw. In other words, no apologies or justifying Mond's bad pick there. I personally thought that the 2nd interception was even worse.

To me, it looks like the game just hasn't slowed down for him yet. He processes slowly and doesn't see the field well. He shows flashes from time to time, but not enough to be a QB2. He's PS material IMO. I'd cut Mannion and try to get Mond to PS.
Yeah, I loved KOC’s take on this. Even if his protection wasn’t perfect, the coach’s point was that protection rarely is perfect. An NFL quarterback has to find a way to get the ball out, whether that’s changing his arm angle, taking a step one way or the other, or something else. Unfortunately, Mond didn’t do that.

However, as VL said, that’s no reason to cut him. His rookie season was a complete loss, with nobody making the effort to develop him, so he’s essentially a rookie right now. Any rookie might have done the same thing. The smart move here is to either keep him on the 53 as QB3, or try and sneak him through to the practice squad and continue working to develop him. Mannion is as good as gone.
I agree. But I'm less bullish on him than VL. I think he's PS material. I feel like guys like Sam Ehlinger, who was chosen by the Colts in the 6th round this spring, are already looking more promising and similar players can be had for a developmental guy. Remember that Mond isn't a Kwesi - O'Connell pick. I trust in KOC's judgement on QB and love that they actually traded for a suitable QB2 when they realized they don't have one currently on the roster.
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Re: Vikings trade 7th round pick for Raiders' QB Nick Mullens

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Texas Vike wrote: Wed Aug 24, 2022 3:45 pm
VikingLord wrote: Tue Aug 23, 2022 3:40 pm

I think KOC alluded to that in his post-game comments where he talked not about Mond throwing the first pick as much as Mond just making a less risky decision given he felt the offense was in field goal range there.

Still, I've never know a great NFL QB who played it safe all the time. When I watched that first pick again, the intended receiver was actually open and breaking deep, and had Mond gotten a half second more before the pressure reached him I'm sure he would have hit a highlight reel throw there. That he didn't is partially on Mond for trying something he saw but couldn't hit due to the pressure, and partly on the OL for allowing the pressure.

But this is an experience thing, not a recognition thing. In other words, Mond saw the right thing. He just didn't get the ball out soon enough. As he gains experience he'll recognize the pressure sooner and learn how to either evade it to buy time to hit the receiver or avoid it and look for a different receiver. That experience can only come from playing the game.

If Mond had just made a bad read there, which he didn't, I'd be inclined to agree with a lot of others that maybe he isn't cut out to be QB #2, but the read was right. It was the execution of the read that was lacking, and the pressure on him was a big part of that failure in execution. All QBs struggle when under pressure, including the greats, so I'm willing to cut Mond slack.
It's funny, Judd Zulgad recently spoke about that first INT and how fans often want to blame EVERYTHING except the QB for these kinds of plays (the protection, the WR, the wind...) but that Judd loved KOC's reaction to it (I believe in the very interview you are mentioning): which was that there was nothing odd about that situation. Mond had plenty of time, decent protection, and just needed to make that throw. In other words, no apologies or justifying Mond's bad pick there. I personally thought that the 2nd interception was even worse.

To me, it looks like the game just hasn't slowed down for him yet. He processes slowly and doesn't see the field well. He shows flashes from time to time, but not enough to be a QB2. He's PS material IMO. I'd cut Mannion and try to get Mond to PS.
Bottom line KOC was pissed during his press conference. He has no use for the M&M guys. I don't blame him because neither took a step forward. That's unacceptable. The good thing is he made a move. Mullens has no upside but he does have some game experience. It's an upgrade and if you need a guy to come in he should be good enough in this O to not give the game away. Mond was drafted too early for his skill set. The guy picked right after him played plenty of games for Houston. He wasn't good but I give him credit. He can at least play. Both those guys should be cut and no team is picking them up. They can sign them to the PS in case someone gets hurt. It's 2 bodies to fill a hole and throw practice balls. We have depth issues that those roster spots should be used for.
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Re: Vikings trade 7th round pick for Raiders' QB Nick Mullens

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If Mannion gets cut I expect to see him on the Green Bay Packers week one.
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Re: Vikings trade 7th round pick for Raiders' QB Nick Mullens

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VikingsVictorious wrote: Thu Aug 25, 2022 1:55 pm If Mannion gets cut I expect to see him on the Green Bay Packers week one.
I'd put money on the Lions. Seems like a Dan Campbell move more than a Lefleur move to me.
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Re: Vikings trade 7th round pick for Raiders' QB Nick Mullens

Post by VikingLord »

CharVike wrote: Thu Aug 25, 2022 9:06 am Mullens has no upside but he does have some game experience. It's an upgrade and if you need a guy to come in he should be good enough in this O to not give the game away.
I'm not convinced. First off, if the defense is getting pressure, be it on Mullens, Mond or Cousins, and limiting the run game, none of them are going to look all that good or sustain drives.

As for not giving the game away, over his 4 year pro career Mullens has thrown 26 TDs against 22 INTs. That isn't a great ratio and casts some doubt in my mind as to Mullens being better at not giving games away. He's an experience veteran backup QB who doesn't possess any notable physical traits or abilities that I can see, and there isn't really any guarantee he'd made better decisions than Mond based on what is currently known about both. At least with Mond we can say we don't know what he'd do. With Mullens and Mannion and even Cousins, we know what we're going to get for the most part.
CharVike wrote: Thu Aug 25, 2022 9:06 am Mond was drafted too early for his skill set. The guy picked right after him played plenty of games for Houston. He wasn't good but I give him credit. He can at least play. Both those guys should be cut and no team is picking them up. They can sign them to the PS in case someone gets hurt. It's 2 bodies to fill a hole and throw practice balls. We have depth issues that those roster spots should be used for.
In a weird way I'm defending Mond on this board mostly because he does take some risks and has shown some moxie. Sure, the results haven't been there for him yet, but as I posted earlier in this thread, when do "safe" QBs ever win Superbowls? When they have amazing, complete teams surrounding them?

Great QBs have to be willing and able to make chances and take risks. They have to be willing to chuck it into tight windows or throw to guys who aren't obviously open or buy some time by scrambling while keeping their eyes down the field. You don't win in the pros by never taking chances. Yes, the execution has to be there. A wild errant throw after an amazing scramble is a fail, as is it a reckless throw across the body. You can teach a talented guy, either by coaching or through experience, to be able to execute in those situations and plays, but you can't teach an average guy to make the exceptional play. He can't make it because he lacks either the mental ability to visualize it in the first place and/or the physical ability to make it even if he can visualize it.

So I get the reservations with Mond and understand the criticisms, but if his main issue is processing the field and slowing the game down, the Vikings need to give him some time to mature and not give up on him so quickly. He's got a great arm, a very tight release, and escapability. Most of his accuracy issues seem to come when he isn't set, and that is concerning, but at the same time, I think that is coachable too.
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Re: Vikings trade 7th round pick for Raiders' QB Nick Mullens

Post by VikingLord »

CharVike wrote: Thu Aug 25, 2022 9:06 am Bottom line KOC was pissed during his press conference.
I'll point out two other things in regards to KOC's attitude after the 49ers game:

- If Mond avoids the first int and instead swallows the ball there or throws it out and the Vikings get a field goal instead of the turnover, they still lose the game, just by a little less. Should that make anyone feel better?

- KOC's offense is not sustaining drives. I truly hope he's not going to start blaming the players for that already. The new scheme, whatever it is, isn't converting on 3rd downs and isn't scoring a lot so far. The Vikings scored what, 20 against the Raiders with 14 of those points coming late in the game via long Mond TD passes? And against the 49ers, 1-7 on 3rd downs with a total of one TD? That's pretty crappy. If KOC is truly going to try to lay that at the feet of his players, man, that bodes terribly for his prospects this season and as a head coach, and quite frankly, I've seen this movie before if he does that. We watched Childress do that and then Zimmer do it the last few seasons. I'm pretty tired of watching that movie because I know how it ends already.

In my view, KOC has far more to prove than any player on the field right now. He's got to show he can lead those players, put the talent he has in position to succeed and adjust as needed. So far, he hasn't shown that, collaborative attitude or not. It's preseason and the games don't count yet, but if anyone thinks the Vikings offense and defense are going to be magically better once the games do start to count if the scheme and coaching aren't better than they have been so far is kidding themselves.