8/14/22 PreSeason: Vikings vs Raiders in Las Vegas

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Re: 8/14/22 PreSeason: Vikings vs Raiders in Las Vegas

Post by VikingsVictorious »

VikingsFan84 wrote: Mon Aug 15, 2022 5:26 pm
VikingsVictorious wrote: Mon Aug 15, 2022 5:05 pm You're claiming the Cousins told management to sign Mannion. I don't believe he can tell them anything. At most it was a request. As for this request existing show me proof.
:lol: I was joking!
That doesn't come across in print. Thanks for letting us know. The problem is some people actually believe this stuff. It's like Cousins would get butt hurt if the Vikings ever got a decent backup. There's zero credibility to those claims, but people believe them anyway.
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Re: 8/14/22 PreSeason: Vikings vs Raiders in Las Vegas

Post by J. Kapp 11 »

VikingsVictorious wrote: Mon Aug 15, 2022 5:35 pm
VikingsFan84 wrote: Mon Aug 15, 2022 5:26 pm

:lol: I was joking!
That doesn't come across in print. Thanks for letting us know. The problem is some people actually believe this stuff. It's like Cousins would get butt hurt if the Vikings ever got a decent backup. There's zero credibility to those claims, but people believe them anyway.
Yeah, seriously. I'm an old codger with Resting B!tch Face. Way too serious about things. I rarely catch the sarcasm in forums like this, or social media, or email, or postcards, or Morse Code. Maybe you could include a laugh emoji or (sarcasm) or something to let me know you're kidding. Will keep me from getting pissed and kicking a puppy. (I'M KIDDING!)
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Re: 8/14/22 PreSeason: Vikings vs Raiders in Las Vegas

Post by J. Kapp 11 »

Well, finally got through the entire game.

Here are 10 early observations.

1. Preseason Game 1 is always painful to watch.
You mostly get the shock troops, and there are always lots of mistakes and penalties. Tried to watch the game through that lens, but it wasn't easy.

2. Incredibly enough, Kellen Mond didn't suck.
His first series was a train wreck. But after that, he seemed to settle in and play reasonably well. PFF had him at 84.8, which was actually the highest grade among all preseason week 1 quarterbacks. Yeah, it was against 2nd and 3rd stringers, but it was progress, which I wasn't expecting based on the reports from camp. His two TD passes were both excellent throws. When he made a read and delivered the ball, it was pretty nice. Color me surprised. (NOTE: If this doesn't vault him past Sean Mannion for QB2, then somebody needs to see if KOC and Wes Phillips are on drugs.)

3. Nwangwu and Chandler showed up at running back.
These are two guys I really like, and they balled out. Ty Chandler is a really patient runner. Love how these two played.

4. First-team O-line stunk up the joint.
Granted, they were blocking for Sean "The Statue" Mannion, with Imir Smith-Marsette as the de facto WR1. But honestly, they weren't good, with Jesse Davis particularly bad. The starters were in for two series, and even with ZERO Raiders starting D-linemen in the game, the Vikings couldn't run the ball or keep pressure off Mannion. Dumpster fire.

5. Meanwhile, the second-team O-line dominated.
Really nice job, with the exception of one rough play by Schlottmann. Ed Ingram played really well, with an 80+ PFF rating. Given how bad Jesse Davis was (are we really all that surprised?) by comparison, I wouldn't be surprised to see Ingram in the starting lineup by the time Sept. 11 rolls around.

6. Chaz Surratt is officially another 2021 draft bust.
Just ... yikes. I lost count of how many times Surratt shot gaps instead of filling them, overran plays, was beaten on pass routes over the middle, or juked into missed tackles. No Rick, using a 3rd round pick on a quarterback who switched to linebacker isn't a good idea.

7. Dang, that was a lot of penalties, even for PS game 1.
Gotta clean it up.

8. I noticed that KOC wasn't smiling as much as we're used to seeing.
Welcome to being a head coach in the NFL, Kevin. Sometimes the best-laid plans are ruined by, you know, players. I'm sure it'll get better.

9. Kick coverage was worrisome.
Not this again.

10. No turnovers.
I guess that's a plus. Could've been a few, but we got some breaks. We also didn't force any turnovers.
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Re: 8/14/22 PreSeason: Vikings vs Raiders in Las Vegas

Post by StanM »

VikingsVictorious wrote: Mon Aug 15, 2022 5:35 pm
VikingsFan84 wrote: Mon Aug 15, 2022 5:26 pm

:lol: I was joking!
That doesn't come across in print. Thanks for letting us know. The problem is some people actually believe this stuff. It's like Cousins would get butt hurt if the Vikings ever got a decent backup. There's zero credibility to those claims, but people believe them anyway.
The claims may or may not be true but the bad play and always hearing how he’s so good for Kirk in the QB room have led some to that conclusion. Bad optics, Mannion looks more like a Cousins personal assistant than a backup QB. The fact that this same scenario appears to be with us this year no doubt fuels the fire of speculation.
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Re: 8/14/22 PreSeason: Vikings vs Raiders in Las Vegas

Post by VikingsVictorious »

StanM wrote: Tue Aug 16, 2022 9:50 am
VikingsVictorious wrote: Mon Aug 15, 2022 5:35 pm
That doesn't come across in print. Thanks for letting us know. The problem is some people actually believe this stuff. It's like Cousins would get butt hurt if the Vikings ever got a decent backup. There's zero credibility to those claims, but people believe them anyway.
The claims may or may not be true but the bad play and always hearing how he’s so good for Kirk in the QB room have led some to that conclusion. Bad optics, Mannion looks more like a Cousins personal assistant than a backup QB. The fact that this same scenario appears to be with us this year no doubt fuels the fire of speculation.
Until there's a shred of evidence for those claims I will 100% dismiss them as untrue.
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Re: 8/14/22 PreSeason: Vikings vs Raiders in Las Vegas

Post by VikingLord »

Managed to watch it too. I'll just add to your observations as you touched all of the high points.
J. Kapp 11 wrote: Mon Aug 15, 2022 9:32 pm 2. Incredibly enough, Kellen Mond didn't suck.
His first series was a train wreck. But after that, he seemed to settle in and play reasonably well. PFF had him at 84.8, which was actually the highest grade among all preseason week 1 quarterbacks. Yeah, it was against 2nd and 3rd stringers, but it was progress, which I wasn't expecting based on the reports from camp. His two TD passes were both excellent throws. When he made a read and delivered the ball, it was pretty nice. Color me surprised. (NOTE: If this doesn't vault him past Sean Mannion for QB2, then somebody needs to see if KOC and Wes Phillips are on drugs.)
I was really impressed with Mond actually, especially in contrast to Mannion. I LOVE his delivery. He holds the ball high and tight, gets it out fast, and it's a perfect spiral. He showed some nice touch and field vision, although he's not there yet. And, he seemed in control of the offense. He seemed like an on field leader. I loved his scramble. I cannot tell you how impressive that is to see a QB who can run choose not to and keep his eyes downfield. I'm super excited about watching him develop. The Vikings might actually have found something there. Although there is more preseason football to be played, Mond should be clearly ahead of Mannion at this point.
J. Kapp 11 wrote: Mon Aug 15, 2022 9:32 pm 3. Nwangwu and Chandler showed up at running back.
These are two guys I really like, and they balled out. Ty Chandler is a really patient runner. Love how these two played.
Agree on both players, but what impressed me about Nwangwu wasn't even one of his runs or runs after a catch. It was after a run play where he went out of his way to fist-bump with every offensive linemen. I mean, I can't recall ever seeing that from a RB. I know RBs give their blockers tons of credit, gifts, etc., but I can't recall ever seeing an RB do that in the huddle after a play. I suspect Nwangwu is a very well-liked guy within the team, and I suspect that guys will go the extra mile to make blocks for him when he's toting it.
J. Kapp 11 wrote: Mon Aug 15, 2022 9:32 pm 4. First-team O-line stunk up the joint.
Granted, they were blocking for Sean "The Statue" Mannion, with Imir Smith-Marsette as the de facto WR1. But honestly, they weren't good, with Jesse Davis particularly bad. The starters were in for two series, and even with ZERO Raiders starting D-linemen in the game, the Vikings couldn't run the ball or keep pressure off Mannion. Dumpster fire.
I made a point of watching Bradbury's play, and he is just a vexing player to watch. On plays where he has to pass block, he really struggles. He loses leverage, gets lifted and pushed back, and can't set his feet or get his base. This happens consistently. On run plays where he can push forward and set after the snap, he's much better. Maybe not perfect better or 1st-round draft pick better, but much better, at least at getting an angle and turning the defender to help open lanes. Beyond that, I thought most of the struggles of the starting OL were caused by Mannion simply failing to move at all after the snap and holding the ball way too long. I thought they did an OK job opening holes for the running backs. Jesse Davis should not win the starting RG job over Ingram. No way. Ingram was much more consistent and better overall.
J. Kapp 11 wrote: Mon Aug 15, 2022 9:32 pm 5. Meanwhile, the second-team O-line dominated.
Really nice job, with the exception of one rough play by Schlottmann. Ed Ingram played really well, with an 80+ PFF rating. Given how bad Jesse Davis was (are we really all that surprised?) by comparison, I wouldn't be surprised to see Ingram in the starting lineup by the time Sept. 11 rolls around.
Udoh struggled a little bit too, but at least he was playing tackle and not guard. Overall, I thought the 2nd team OL was very physical. They looked like a group of guys that wanted to be out there and want to compete. I loved it.
J. Kapp 11 wrote: Mon Aug 15, 2022 9:32 pm 7. Dang, that was a lot of penalties, even for PS game 1.
Gotta clean it up.
I laughed a little when they flagged Booth for 2 penalties on the same play, and I'm not sure I saw either penalty on the replay, but he seemed to roll with it.

A couple other items of note:

- Cine looked good. Tracks well, good tackler, aggressive and showed some smarts and awareness. The fact that Bynum is beating him out for one of the starting safety slots is very encouraging. The Vikings haven't had a truly good pair of starting safeties for what seems like forever.

- Booth looked good too. He is very active and I didn't see any evidence he's holding back or isn't fully recovered. I think we'll see some big plays out of him.

- I really liked what I saw from Phillips on the interior DL. He's going to be able to anchor the nose and control that area of the LOS. While the Vikings run defense wasn't great in this last game, I liked what I saw from it on interior runs. I think once Hunter and Smith get out there, the edges will get cleaned up a bit and teams are going to find the going much harder on the ground.

Not a great overall game but some good individual performances and a lot of reason for optimism.
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Re: 8/14/22 PreSeason: Vikings vs Raiders in Las Vegas

Post by J. Kapp 11 »

VikingLord wrote: Tue Aug 16, 2022 12:19 pm Managed to watch it too. I'll just add to your observations as you touched all of the high points.
J. Kapp 11 wrote: Mon Aug 15, 2022 9:32 pm 3. Nwangwu and Chandler showed up at running back.
These are two guys I really like, and they balled out. Ty Chandler is a really patient runner. Love how these two played.
Agree on both players, but what impressed me about Nwangwu wasn't even one of his runs or runs after a catch. It was after a run play where he went out of his way to fist-bump with every offensive linemen. I mean, I can't recall ever seeing that from a RB. I know RBs give their blockers tons of credit, gifts, etc., but I can't recall ever seeing an RB do that in the huddle after a play. I suspect Nwangwu is a very well-liked guy within the team, and I suspect that guys will go the extra mile to make blocks for him when he's toting it.
You have hit on one of the main reasons I loved the Nwangwu draft pick.

Kene Nwangwu was not only one of the most-liked guys on the Iowa State team, he was absolutely beloved. Totally selfless, always willing to encourage his teammates. When he played his first game after missing his sophomore season with an achilles injury, he scored a touchdown on the next play after coach Matt Campbell pulled All-American Breece Hall for a mistake. When Nwangwu got to the sideline, he wasn't concerned about celebrating. He went straight to Hall to encourage him. I mean, the guy had just missed an entire season because of injury, yet his main worry, after taking one to the house, was the guy ahead of him on the depth chart. The guy is a leader, plain and simple.

Here's what Campbell had to say about Nwangwu:
He's one of the great leaders of Iowa State football and I really appreciate who he is. He's unselfish, wants what's best for the team and is willing to stand up for what's right, both on and off the field. That part of it is what I really appreciate about Kene.
Nwangwu was also a great student. He was the Big 12’s scholar athlete of the year in 2020 and was first-team academic All-Big 12 three times while in Iowa State’s engineering college.

He's just one of those guys who's impossible to not root for, especially once you learn a little about his personality. As an Iowan, I loved watching him at Iowa State. So I'm glad he's working out. It was especially great to see him progress as a running back, showing patience and vision against the Raiders.

The Vikings have an amazing running back room.
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Re: 8/14/22 PreSeason: Vikings vs Raiders in Las Vegas

Post by vikeinmontana »

VikingsVictorious wrote: Tue Aug 16, 2022 10:43 am
StanM wrote: Tue Aug 16, 2022 9:50 am

The claims may or may not be true but the bad play and always hearing how he’s so good for Kirk in the QB room have led some to that conclusion. Bad optics, Mannion looks more like a Cousins personal assistant than a backup QB. The fact that this same scenario appears to be with us this year no doubt fuels the fire of speculation.
Until there's a shred of evidence for those claims I will 100% dismiss them as untrue.
Smart. There's only a few guys playing, sure HOF'ers that have that kind of pull. And even then, I don't care if you're Tom Brady, if it doesn't make sense for the organization they're not going to do it. I'm sure Kirk and Mannion have a great relationship. By all accounts Mannion has a brilliant football mind. I have no doubts that he is able to help Kirk in that way. You can never have too much knowledge breaking down the game. I don't even have a hard time believing that Kirk could have voiced his opinion on wanting Mannion to stick around. That's all fine and well. But to even suggest that Mannion is still on the roster ONLY because Kirk insisted on it, defies all logic. :lol:
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Re: 8/14/22 PreSeason: Vikings vs Raiders in Las Vegas

Post by StanM »

VikingsVictorious wrote: Tue Aug 16, 2022 10:43 am
StanM wrote: Tue Aug 16, 2022 9:50 am

The claims may or may not be true but the bad play and always hearing how he’s so good for Kirk in the QB room have led some to that conclusion. Bad optics, Mannion looks more like a Cousins personal assistant than a backup QB. The fact that this same scenario appears to be with us this year no doubt fuels the fire of speculation.
Until there's a shred of evidence for those claims I will 100% dismiss them as untrue.
It’s an interesting conspiracy theory but I won’t lose any sleep over it. Either way I have been at this since ‘61 and nothing could make me abandon them now.
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Re: 8/14/22 PreSeason: Vikings vs Raiders in Las Vegas

Post by JJBreaksRecords »

StanM wrote: Tue Aug 16, 2022 7:29 pm
VikingsVictorious wrote: Tue Aug 16, 2022 10:43 am
Until there's a shred of evidence for those claims I will 100% dismiss them as untrue.
It’s an interesting conspiracy theory but I won’t lose any sleep over it. Either way I have been at this since ‘61 and nothing could make me abandon them now.
Some people just like to bury their head in the sand.
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Re: 8/14/22 PreSeason: Vikings vs Raiders in Las Vegas

Post by StanM »

JJBreaksRecords wrote: Wed Aug 17, 2022 8:26 am
StanM wrote: Tue Aug 16, 2022 7:29 pm

It’s an interesting conspiracy theory but I won’t lose any sleep over it. Either way I have been at this since ‘61 and nothing could make me abandon them now.
Some people just like to bury their head in the sand.
Something to talk about before the season starts and we have legitimate concerns.
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Re: 8/14/22 PreSeason: Vikings vs Raiders in Las Vegas

Post by CharVike »

vikeinmontana wrote: Tue Aug 16, 2022 1:45 pm
VikingsVictorious wrote: Tue Aug 16, 2022 10:43 am
Until there's a shred of evidence for those claims I will 100% dismiss them as untrue.
Smart. There's only a few guys playing, sure HOF'ers that have that kind of pull. And even then, I don't care if you're Tom Brady, if it doesn't make sense for the organization they're not going to do it. I'm sure Kirk and Mannion have a great relationship. By all accounts Mannion has a brilliant football mind. I have no doubts that he is able to help Kirk in that way. You can never have too much knowledge breaking down the game. I don't even have a hard time believing that Kirk could have voiced his opinion on wanting Mannion to stick around. That's all fine and well. But to even suggest that Mannion is still on the roster ONLY because Kirk insisted on it, defies all logic. :lol:
It's called fuzzy logic. If in fact Mannion is brilliant at football how can that hurt Kirk or Mond. It could help the coaches. Of course if he faces a top team he will have a hard time and that's when coaching needs to help out.
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Re: 8/14/22 PreSeason: Vikings vs Raiders in Las Vegas

Post by VikingLord »

CharVike wrote: Wed Aug 17, 2022 1:10 pm
vikeinmontana wrote: Tue Aug 16, 2022 1:45 pm

Smart. There's only a few guys playing, sure HOF'ers that have that kind of pull. And even then, I don't care if you're Tom Brady, if it doesn't make sense for the organization they're not going to do it. I'm sure Kirk and Mannion have a great relationship. By all accounts Mannion has a brilliant football mind. I have no doubts that he is able to help Kirk in that way. You can never have too much knowledge breaking down the game. I don't even have a hard time believing that Kirk could have voiced his opinion on wanting Mannion to stick around. That's all fine and well. But to even suggest that Mannion is still on the roster ONLY because Kirk insisted on it, defies all logic. :lol:
It's called fuzzy logic. If in fact Mannion is brilliant at football how can that hurt Kirk or Mond. It could help the coaches. Of course if he faces a top team he will have a hard time and that's when coaching needs to help out.
I can only hope if Mannion makes the team he's earned that spot based on his ability to play and not to be a behind-the-scenes security blanket for another player, be that Cousins or someone else.

Also, Cousins is pretty established. I find it hard to believe he needs advice or support at this point from anyone other than the coaches. He might like Mannion a lot and even be buddies with him off the field, but Cousins isn't going to shine or wilt because Mannion is or isn't sitting on the sidelines.
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Re: 8/14/22 PreSeason: Vikings vs Raiders in Las Vegas

Post by vikeinmontana »

VikingLord wrote: Wed Aug 17, 2022 6:48 pm
CharVike wrote: Wed Aug 17, 2022 1:10 pm
It's called fuzzy logic. If in fact Mannion is brilliant at football how can that hurt Kirk or Mond. It could help the coaches. Of course if he faces a top team he will have a hard time and that's when coaching needs to help out.
I can only hope if Mannion makes the team he's earned that spot based on his ability to play and not to be a behind-the-scenes security blanket for another player, be that Cousins or someone else.

Also, Cousins is pretty established. I find it hard to believe he needs advice or support at this point from anyone other than the coaches. He might like Mannion a lot and even be buddies with him off the field, but Cousins isn't going to shine or wilt because Mannion is or isn't sitting on the sidelines.
I don't know that anyone is suggesting this. It's far fetched. That was my point. Mannion is not on the team solely because he's buddies with Kirk. Organizations don't work that way.

Kirk is the #1 guy. That's obvious. The battle is between Mond and Mannion. I'm not saying that's a great spot to be for a #2 QB but it's our reality. He's on the team to compete for the #2 spot. Maybe he'll win it. Maybe not. But it's been widely reported he's got a great mind for the game. Based on seeing him play, I'd venture to guess his smarts are a huge reason he's stayed in the league this long. That can't hurt a team. You can never have too much knowledge. It never hurts sharing that knowledge. It certainly doesn't hurt having a guy like that in the QB room. This isn't to say Kirk is some kind of idiot and would be worthless without Mannion. That's asinine as well. But it doesn't hurt.

Mannion seems to be one of the thousands of cases in the NFL with a brilliant mind but maybe lacks all of the tools to be a great QB live. This isn't a knock. He's good enough to be a backup QB in the NFL for a long time. That in and of itself is impressive. It goes the other way too. How many times have we read about so and so QB who has all the athletic tools in the world but just can't put it together mentally? Again, this isn't to suggest these players are morons, but for some it just takes longer and is more difficult to grasp the mental side of the game. Obviously when you get the players who excel at both, they are usually your star players in the league.

I don't know much about Mond and his ability between the ears or his grasp of the playbook or defenses. I have no idea. But I assume that when it's time to get to the 53, and the coaches feel that he and Mannion are neck and neck, it just may come down to the guy with the greater knowledge and not the most athletic. That happens every year with every team. Those smarts may just be what keeps Mannion around. Not that he's buds with Kirk or that Kirk insisted he stays or he'll wilt. Pro sports don't work like that.
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Re: 8/14/22 PreSeason: Vikings vs Raiders in Las Vegas

Post by CharVike »

VikingLord wrote: Wed Aug 17, 2022 6:48 pm
CharVike wrote: Wed Aug 17, 2022 1:10 pm
It's called fuzzy logic. If in fact Mannion is brilliant at football how can that hurt Kirk or Mond. It could help the coaches. Of course if he faces a top team he will have a hard time and that's when coaching needs to help out.
I can only hope if Mannion makes the team he's earned that spot based on his ability to play and not to be a behind-the-scenes security blanket for another player, be that Cousins or someone else.

Also, Cousins is pretty established. I find it hard to believe he needs advice or support at this point from anyone other than the coaches. He might like Mannion a lot and even be buddies with him off the field, but Cousins isn't going to shine or wilt because Mannion is or isn't sitting on the sidelines.
Who knows why Mannion is here. Your right Mannion has nothing to do with Cousins. When he beat RG out Mannion wasn't there holding his hand or whatever he does for him that made it happen. If Cousins is helping fill out the roster I think his first request would be how about getting a center that can block? Or a LT with a better than 63.1 pass blocking grade. Mannion has zero impact on this team. He's a practice thrower. If he does get in maybe there are more miracles out there for us and he'll get some wins.