The Top 20 2022 Minnesota Vikings

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StumpHunter
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Re: The Top 20 2022 Minnesota Vikings

Post by StumpHunter »

cmoss84 wrote: Fri Jul 01, 2022 1:08 pm
Can you or anyone give an example of a good to very good QB play leading to missing the playoffs 3 of 4 seasons?
[/quote]

Packers missed the playoffs 2 years in a row with Rodgers. Stafford was been pretty good on a terrible team for a while. Dak might be thrown into the conversation...as well as Kyler Murray. Justin Herbert. Carr had some good years...Matt Ryan.

Not saying these are perfect examples, but they're out there...
[/quote]
Rodgers was hurt in one of those years and missed about half the games.

Stafford played for Detroit and I would argue he didn't play good to very good QB every year.

Justin Herbert and Kyler Murray haven't even played 4 seasons yet.

Dak has been in the playoffs 3 of his 5 healthy seasons starting.

Ryan and Carr? One was just traded for a 3rd and the other is Carr. Not what I would call good to pretty good QB play out of those two for the past 4 seasons. Pretty close comps to Cousins though.
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Re: The Top 20 2022 Minnesota Vikings

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J. Kapp 11 wrote: Fri Jul 01, 2022 1:37 pm
StumpHunter wrote: Fri Jul 01, 2022 6:56 am
This was in response to a post where he talked about O'Connell's offense giving Cousins more reads. If that is true, doesn't knowing what the QB does when forced to make multiple reads important? For instance, Stafford has always been better going to his second read versus his primary and predictably excelled in an offense where he was given lots of options. Cousins isn't that guy.
You don’t know that. You’re not an expert. I know that must come as a total shock to you, but you’re not.

But hey, what has Cousins done in a pass-first offense? Let’s take a look at FACTS.

In 2018, the Vikings brought in Cousins and hired John DeFilippo as OC. Flip brought a pass-first mentality.
And were 22nd in scoring after being 8th the prior year with a backup QB, won 8 games with the 3rd best scoring defense and missed the playoffs.

Let's get back to that!
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Re: The Top 20 2022 Minnesota Vikings

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JJBreaksRecords wrote: Fri Jul 01, 2022 1:32 pm
VikingsVictorious wrote: Thu Jun 30, 2022 10:42 pm
Stump digging deeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeep for that one.
It's so enlightening to know who ranks where in EPA/P when going from first to second read. Isn't that the #1 most important QB stat. When the teams negotiate with the QBs for their next contracts and the team says we can't pay you more than $30 Million the QB and his agent pull out the trump card of their QB having the biggest gain in EPA/P when going from first to second read in the NFL. They can't accept a dime less than $40 million per year.
Man, even after supposedly ignoring Stump, hes almost all you talk about. You dig for the good stats all the time, why cant Stump?
JJ I saw his post because somebody quoted it. That was the deeeepest stat dive I have ever seen on any message board. EPA/P difference between first and second read. Seriously!!!!!! :lol: :lol: :lol: My stats are the usual ones.

You aren't nearly as bad as Stump, but you are adding nothing useful to the discussion. You're just parroting and defending Stump. Please try thinking for yourself.
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Re: The Top 20 2022 Minnesota Vikings

Post by J. Kapp 11 »

StumpHunter wrote: Fri Jul 01, 2022 3:39 pm
J. Kapp 11 wrote: Fri Jul 01, 2022 1:37 pm
You don’t know that. You’re not an expert. I know that must come as a total shock to you, but you’re not.

But hey, what has Cousins done in a pass-first offense? Let’s take a look at FACTS.

In 2018, the Vikings brought in Cousins and hired John DeFilippo as OC. Flip brought a pass-first mentality.
And were 22nd in scoring after being 8th the prior year with a backup QB, won 8 games with the 3rd best scoring defense and missed the playoffs.

Let's get back to that!
I notice how you completely ignore the rest of the post. I guess nothing ever changes around here.
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Re: The Top 20 2022 Minnesota Vikings

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J. Kapp 11 wrote: Fri Jul 01, 2022 8:17 pm
StumpHunter wrote: Fri Jul 01, 2022 3:39 pm
And were 22nd in scoring after being 8th the prior year with a backup QB, won 8 games with the 3rd best scoring defense and missed the playoffs.

Let's get back to that!
I notice how you completely ignore the rest of the post. I guess nothing ever changes around here.
It's always that way. In 2018 Griffen was out. Cook gained 600 yards as he missed time. Zim's D as always feasted on the bottom dwellers as he held the great Stafford to 18 points in two games. But against that Ram team his D laid down. Goff 5 TD passes and 465 yards passing. That's embarrassing. Against NE 160 yards rushing and Brady avg 9.7 per attempt. Packers tied us as our FG kicker missed 3 that day. As always you win or lose as a team. Some see it some don't.
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Re: The Top 20 2022 Minnesota Vikings

Post by JJBreaksRecords »

VikingsVictorious wrote: Fri Jul 01, 2022 5:19 pm
JJBreaksRecords wrote: Fri Jul 01, 2022 1:32 pm

Man, even after supposedly ignoring Stump, hes almost all you talk about. You dig for the good stats all the time, why cant Stump?
JJ I saw his post because somebody quoted it. That was the deeeepest stat dive I have ever seen on any message board. EPA/P difference between first and second read. Seriously!!!!!! :lol: :lol: :lol: My stats are the usual ones.

You aren't nearly as bad as Stump, but you are adding nothing useful to the discussion. You're just parroting and defending Stump. Please try thinking for yourself.
You are something else. All you do is troll, and agree with everything he say, yet I dont think, I just agree with stump? Project much? :deadhorse:
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Re: The Top 20 2022 Minnesota Vikings

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JJBreaksRecords wrote: Sat Jul 02, 2022 8:30 am
VikingsVictorious wrote: Fri Jul 01, 2022 5:19 pm
JJ I saw his post because somebody quoted it. That was the deeeepest stat dive I have ever seen on any message board. EPA/P difference between first and second read. Seriously!!!!!! :lol: :lol: :lol: My stats are the usual ones.

You aren't nearly as bad as Stump, but you are adding nothing useful to the discussion. You're just parroting and defending Stump. Please try thinking for yourself.
You are something else. All you do is troll, and agree with everything he say, yet I dont think, I just agree with stump? Project much? :deadhorse:
I've never trolled once in my entire life. I appreciate PHP if that's who you mean by "he", but we have many disagreements. Kapp and I have had a knockdown drag out fight over his belief that RBs pretty much provide nothing of value to NFL teams, but I still totally appreciate and respect him. You offer nothing but parroting Stump so far. I honestly think you might be him under another account. Probably not, but the thought has crossed my mind. If you're not him show something. Offer some unique to you thoughts on this board. I hope you're better than this.
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Re: The Top 20 2022 Minnesota Vikings

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J. Kapp 11 wrote: Fri Jul 01, 2022 8:17 pm
StumpHunter wrote: Fri Jul 01, 2022 3:39 pm
And were 22nd in scoring after being 8th the prior year with a backup QB, won 8 games with the 3rd best scoring defense and missed the playoffs.

Let's get back to that!
I notice how you completely ignore the rest of the post. I guess nothing ever changes around here.
It is just that we have already been over all of this before and in the end, how much the offense scores and helps the team win should be all that matters.

However, if you insist:

During that stretch you think Cousins was doing really well, the Vikings faced exactly 1 top 10 scoring defense and were annihilated by it. The other D's they faced?

26th (4 wins)
22nd (6 Wins)
19th (13 wins)
23rd (9 Wins)
16th (3 wins)
21st (4 wins)

They then got to the more difficult part of the schedule, teams adjusted to the Vikings new offense and it sucked. Worse than just about any other Viking's offense of the past decade. Not because Zimmer was upset about scoring 37 against the Jets (lol), or because the team ran more, but because it was Cousins can't carry an offense and is at his best with a strong run game. The Vikings ended up only breaking 100 yards rushing 3 times after that Jets game (all wins, all the three highest scoring games in the second half of the season against bad teams, Detroit X2 and Miami).

The defenses they faced during that period/result of the game
20th/Loss
17th/Win
22nd/Win
1st/Loss
7th/Loss
12th/Loss
17th/Win
24th/Win
1st/Loss

See a pattern? The only really good scoring output they had was against Miami and that happened to be the single best rushing game of the season. Just a coincidence I am sure. That O ended up the 2nd worst ranked scoring of the past decade for the Vikings, the first being 2016, yet another year the team ran the ball very infrequently. Another coincidence.

On top of that, this pattern holds true for Cousins career. The best ranked scoring offense Cousins ever lead was not with McVay in Washington having him throw the ball a ton, it was in 2019 where Cousins threw the ball the fewest times of his career. More coindicidence?

There, I addressed your take on the terrible offense of the 2018 season yet again. Not sure why anyone wants to go back to that offense, but there you go.
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Re: The Top 20 2022 Minnesota Vikings

Post by J. Kapp 11 »

StumpHunter wrote: Sat Jul 02, 2022 11:35 am
J. Kapp 11 wrote: Fri Jul 01, 2022 8:17 pm
I notice how you completely ignore the rest of the post. I guess nothing ever changes around here.
It is just that we have already been over all of this before and in the end, how much the offense scores and helps the team win should be all that matters.

However, if you insist:

During that stretch you think Cousins was doing really well, the Vikings faced exactly 1 top 10 scoring defense and were annihilated by it. The other D's they faced?

26th (4 wins)
22nd (6 Wins)
19th (13 wins)
23rd (9 Wins)
16th (3 wins)
21st (4 wins)

They then got to the more difficult part of the schedule, teams adjusted to the Vikings new offense and it sucked. Worse than just about any other Viking's offense of the past decade. Not because Zimmer was upset about scoring 37 against the Jets (lol), or because the team ran more, but because it was Cousins can't carry an offense and is at his best with a strong run game. The Vikings ended up only breaking 100 yards rushing 3 times after that Jets game (all wins, all the three highest scoring games in the second half of the season against bad teams, Detroit X2 and Miami).

The defenses they faced during that period/result of the game
20th/Loss
17th/Win
22nd/Win
1st/Loss
7th/Loss
12th/Loss
17th/Win
24th/Win
1st/Loss

See a pattern? The only really good scoring output they had was against Miami and that happened to be the single best rushing game of the season. Just a coincidence I am sure. That O ended up the 2nd worst ranked scoring of the past decade for the Vikings, the first being 2016, yet another year the team ran the ball very infrequently. Another coincidence.

On top of that, this pattern holds true for Cousins career. The best ranked scoring offense Cousins ever lead was not with McVay in Washington having him throw the ball a ton, it was in 2019 where Cousins threw the ball the fewest times of his career. More coindicidence?

There, I addressed your take on the terrible offense of the 2018 season yet again. Not sure why anyone wants to go back to that offense, but there you go.
Do you have any idea how utterly TIRING it gets arguing with you? I mean, you’re so predictable. You’re going to defend Mike Zimmer until the day you die.

Go ahead and toss around all the stats you want. The only stat that counts is wins, and the Vikings were 4-2-1 in 2018 after scoring 37 against the Jets. And yet … Zimmer went apesh!t, an account that has been reported by more than one journalist, any of which I ascribe one million times more credibility than you.

I give you the account of Ben Goessling, one of the best in the business.
After the Vikings scored 37 points to improve to 4-2-1 in a win over the Jets, sources said, Zimmer lambasted DeFilippo in a team meeting for not running the ball enough; he made his issues with DeFilippo’s approach public after losses in Week 11 and 13. The Vikings would not score more than 24 points in six games following the Jets win, and after a Monday night Week 14 loss in Seattle where they narrowly avoided a shutout, Zimmer fired DeFilippo and replaced him with Kevin Stefanski.
The fact is that your man-crush Mike Zimmer didn’t see offense, especially the passing game, as particularly useful. He drove his friend Norv Turner out of Minnesota with his constant b!tching about the offense. The longest any OC lasted under Zimmer was 27 games. Yet your answer to the Vikings’ troubles is to assign all blame to a quarterback Zimmer couldn’t stand. What kind of head coach openly hates his quarterback?

It’s time that somebody gave it to you straight. Mike Zimmer brought the Vikings out of the darkness of 2013, then turned himself into a joke. A caricature. He descended into the abyss his last four years, becoming an under-the-bridge troll who alienated people by the dozen and created a culture of tension, doom and fear.

Heck, I’d be fairly confident in saying that Kirk Cousins will play better in 2022 because of one simple truth: Mike Zimmer is no longer in the building. The fact that KOC understands and cares about modern offense is a bonus.

Do us all a favor and stop defending your boy Zimmer.
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Re: The Top 20 2022 Minnesota Vikings

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I'm just so frustrated about this thread being hijacked by Stump. It's supposed to be about how we all rank the top 20 Vikings. It's not supposed to be about how much Stump hates Cousins.
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Re: The Top 20 2022 Minnesota Vikings

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VikingsVictorious wrote: Mon Jul 04, 2022 7:13 am I'm just so frustrated about this thread being hijacked by Stump. It's supposed to be about how we all rank the top 20 Vikings. It's not supposed to be about how much Stump hates Cousins.
There are now more posts with you obsessing over me than me talking about Cousins. Who I didn't bring up. Who others continue to talk about, including yourself.
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Re: The Top 20 2022 Minnesota Vikings

Post by CharVike »

VikingsVictorious wrote: Mon Jul 04, 2022 7:13 am I'm just so frustrated about this thread being hijacked by Stump. It's supposed to be about how we all rank the top 20 Vikings. It's not supposed to be about how much Stump hates Cousins.
I'm tired and I'm sure many others are also tired of every thread turning into how much Cousins sucks talk. Same stuff from a long time ago is repeated over and over. It's a turn the page year and hopefully this staff will get the most out of every player and use them in a way that takes advantage of their skills. That's what needs to happen or we are done.
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Re: The Top 20 2022 Minnesota Vikings

Post by J. Kapp 11 »

CharVike wrote: Mon Jul 04, 2022 8:57 am
VikingsVictorious wrote: Mon Jul 04, 2022 7:13 am I'm just so frustrated about this thread being hijacked by Stump. It's supposed to be about how we all rank the top 20 Vikings. It's not supposed to be about how much Stump hates Cousins.
I'm tired and I'm sure many others are also tired of every thread turning into how much Cousins sucks talk. Same stuff from a long time ago is repeated over and over. It's a turn the page year and hopefully this staff will get the most out of every player and use them in a way that takes advantage of their skills. That's what needs to happen or we are done.
One of your best posts, CharVike. Bravo!
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Re: The Top 20 2022 Minnesota Vikings

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J. Kapp 11 wrote: Sun Jul 03, 2022 10:11 pm Do you have any idea how utterly TIRING it gets arguing with you? I mean, you’re so predictable. You’re going to defend Mike Zimmer until the day you die.
You are getting it wrong. Apparently I am "hating" on Cousins too much.
Go ahead and toss around all the stats you want. The only stat that counts is wins, and the Vikings were 4-2-1 in 2018 after scoring 37 against the Jets.
4-2-1 against 5 teams with 6 or fewer wins and only one team that ended up winning double digits. That is about what I would expect from the Vikings since 2017, since they pretty much lost to every winning team and beat every losing team, and since that is exactly what happened for the rest of that 2018 season.
And yet … Zimmer went apesh!t, an account that has been reported by more than one journalist, any of which I ascribe one million times more credibility than you.

I give you the account of Ben Goessling, one of the best in the business.
After the Vikings scored 37 points to improve to 4-2-1 in a win over the Jets, sources said, Zimmer lambasted DeFilippo in a team meeting for not running the ball enough; he made his issues with DeFilippo’s approach public after losses in Week 11 and 13. The Vikings would not score more than 24 points in six games following the Jets win, and after a Monday night Week 14 loss in Seattle where they narrowly avoided a shutout, Zimmer fired DeFilippo and replaced him with Kevin Stefanski.
[/quote]
The ever reliable "sources said" that you yourself have blasted on here a number of times. However, if it were true, it would be a feather in Zimmer's cap not a negative since it would mean he predicted the downfall of the offense if they didn't start running the ball more. Which is exactly what happened.

#1 and #2 RB Carries/Result after that Jet's game where Murray carried 15 times

16/Loss
20/Win
13/Loss
21/Win
13/Loss
16/Loss
DeFilipo was fired
34/Win (highest scoring game of the season)
25/Win
13/Loss

The Vikings won EVERY game they ran it 20 or more times, lost every time they ran it fewer than 20 times, but Zimmer was wrong to want to run more? Interesting...

Look, I don't want to defend Zimmer and if it comes off that I am, it is because people seem to think moving on from him is some sort of magic pill. He was an okay coach that probably wasn't good enough to win it all with just like Spielman was an okay GM and Cousins is an okay QB who weren't/aren't good enough. I said as much last year when I said it was time to move on from the HC, GM and QB. However, Zimmer's philosophy of running the ball a lot has been the philosophy that has been the key to any success for this team since AP was drafted and it is not a coincidence that since 2014, the worst offenses we have had have been the ones where the team has run the ball the least:

Pass to run ratio rank/scoring rank
2021: 18th/16th
2020: 27th/10th
2019: 29th/6th
2018: 4th/22nd
2017: 28th/8th
2016: 9th/23rd
2015: 30th/14th
2014: 20th/21st

The less this team passes, the better the offense does. That will not change just because there is a new HC since our QB is by far at his best running PA, Cook is still a very good RB and the Oline is made up of guys who are at their best run blocking. Hopefully O'Connell recognizes that and doesn't move away from the strength of his personnel.
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Re: The Top 20 2022 Minnesota Vikings

Post by VikingLord »

CharVike wrote: Mon Jul 04, 2022 8:57 am I'm tired and I'm sure many others are also tired of every thread turning into how much Cousins sucks talk. Same stuff from a long time ago is repeated over and over. It's a turn the page year and hopefully this staff will get the most out of every player and use them in a way that takes advantage of their skills. That's what needs to happen or we are done.
I feel like it could have been more of a "turn-the-page-year" than it has actually been. It started off well with the Wilfs making major changes at the top, but then kind of petered out.

Being a Vikings fan requires a great degree of hope seemingly every year.

Still, Stump isn't the only person on this board who has doubts about whether Kirk Cousins is capable of justifying that hope.

As far as stuff being repeated from a long time ago, it's not hard to see why that is the case. I mean, as long as the Vikings keep the same players year after year, those same players are going to be the topic of discussion. If there is fatigue around those players and that discussion, that's more a reflection of the duration of those contracts. In the case of Cousins, we're going on what, 4 solid years now? He first played for them in 2018 and it's now 2022 and he's under contract for 2023 for sure. In that time the Vikings made the playoffs once and have not won a division title. They've been decidedly average.

That isn't all Cousins' fault but he hasn't been part of some major resurgence or even some arc of general improvement. They've tread water every year he's been here. If Zimmer was what held them back, that should become apparent fairly quickly.