Vikings Message Board.Com

I got a reply from Stump how surprising. He knows I don't read his replies, but he still constantly replies to me. I can't read his posts now, but I still know what they say and it's still annoying as hell. Who started this nonsense about where the QB must be in the top 20 players anyway. This is not a thread about Cousins. It's a thread to simply rank the players. Why does it get hijacked like this. Give Stump an opening an inch wide and he will hijack every thread and turn it into something about Kirk. He's freaking obsessed.

VikingsVictorious wrote: ↑Wed Jun 29, 2022 11:33 am I got a reply from Stump how surprising. He knows I don't read his replies, but he still constantly replies to me. I can't read his posts now, but I still know what they say and it's still annoying as hell. Who started this nonsense about where the QB must be in the top 20 players anyway. This is not a thread about Cousins. It's a thread to simply rank the players. Why does it get hijacked like this. Give Stump an opening an inch wide and he will hijack every thread and turn it into something about Kirk. He's freaking obsessed.

Yep, I am the one who is clearly obsessed. Why do you care that I responded to you if you aren't going to read it?

Another reply to me from Stump. Please STOP. Just make a post without it being a reply to me. Refer to what I said all you want. Just remember if you're debating with me I'm not seeing it. You're debating with somebody who won't see what you have to say so won't be refuting anything or giving any counterpoints. Maybe you like it best that way.

JJBreaksRecords wrote: ↑Tue Jun 28, 2022 8:32 pm

J. Kapp 11 wrote: ↑Tue Jun 28, 2022 6:03 pm
OK this is probably going to come off as overly sensitive, but I have to ask …

Are you saying that if someone rates Kirk Cousins higher than the 10th-best player on his own team, then that person isn’t an objective observer?

I think it’s entirely reasonable for an objective observer to rate Kirk Cousins higher than 10th best on the Vikings. I certainly rank him higher than that, and I’m far from a Cousins apologist.

In addition, I believe that with an offense where the forward pass isn’t a last resort and is actually built to take advantage of Cousins’ strengths, we could see him take a pretty big step forward in 2022.

Whats Cousins done here or in WAS to make you feel that. High stats which are basically meaningless unless we win the big game? A lot of playoffs wins? Or do you think the rest of the team is that bad?

A few reasons he COULD take steps forward this year.

1. I believe the O-line will be improved. Darrisaw is settled in now at LT, and if Reed is even league average at RG, we're better than last year.

2. Really good skill position players.

3. Cousins DID improve in late-game situations last year. Yes, most of those games were against inferior competition, but he had several quality performances late in games, including against Green Bay.

4. The biggest reason for my optimism, however, is Kevin O'Connell. Every single coach from the McVay tree — LaFleur, Taylor and Staley — is having success. I see no reason that O'Connell won't. He brings intelligence, a positive attitude, and a bonafide quality offensive system with him from LA. It's a system that got Jared Goff to a Super Bowl. It's a system that will take advantage of what Kirk Cousins does well, which is go through his progressions. According to a number of credible things I've read and heard, the big difference for Cousins will be that he will go to the line with multiple play, formation and motion options. He'll call the play from those options based on what he sees pre-snap. In his previous four years with the Vikings, the play was called in the huddle, and I'm not convinced he had authority to audible or override it. Cousins may not be very good off-script, but he's an intelligent guy, so if he can get the Vikings in the right play consistently, I believe he can have a lot of success. It's not the same system he had in Washington. O'Connell was his QB coach. That's the only similarity. I believe both men have learned a lot since then.

Will Cousins take a step forward? No one knows. It's a new system, so there will likely be growing pains. Even if he learns it really well, the rest of his team also has to learn it and execute it. So I'm not predicting a big step forward. But I also won't be surprised if it happens.

If he does, are we talking MVP level? Not likely. He's just not good enough when plays break down, and he doesn't have an MVP reputation. But you don't need to have the league MVP on your roster to compete for a Super Bowl. In fact, the last MVP to play for a Super Bowl winning team was Kurt Warner in 1999. The NFL MVP has only PLAYED in the Super Bowl 5 times since then, including 1999.

In order to make a playoff run, we need Kirk Cousins to play the best football of his career. If he's ever going to do it, this is the best opportunity he's had.

J. Kapp 11 wrote: ↑Wed Jun 29, 2022 4:15 pm In order to make a playoff run, we need Kirk Cousins to play the best football of his career. If he's ever going to do it, this is the best opportunity he's had.

I would say that the best opportunity he had to prove he was capable of taking a team to the next level was when he joined a 13 win team a game away from the SB. Or when he was coached by the actual McVay and had a great group of WRs and great Oline in 2016. Both of those seasons resulted in 8 wins.

Kirk has been at his best in 2019 when he had a defense and run game that didn't require him to do a lot. He needs heavy PA, one read, and being told exactly where to go with the football. Giving him multiple reads and progressions is a recipe for disaster and his EPA/P drops from .26 to -.07 when he goes from his first read to his second, the biggest drop of any QB in the entire NFL last season.

We don't actually know what O'Connell's offense will be, except that it sounds super complex and that he won't run the ball as much and that makes me very nervous. Kirk does not handle carrying a full load well, he is a below average QB when not running a lot of PA and the last time the Vikings tried complexity on offense he lined up under the guard. It sounds like we will already have a built in excuse for yet another year of failure at QB.

StumpHunter wrote: ↑Thu Jun 30, 2022 7:29 am

J. Kapp 11 wrote: ↑Wed Jun 29, 2022 4:15 pm In order to make a playoff run, we need Kirk Cousins to play the best football of his career. If he's ever going to do it, this is the best opportunity he's had.

I would say that the best opportunity he had to prove he was capable of taking a team to the next level was when he joined a 13 win team a game away from the SB. Or when he was coached by the actual McVay and had a great group of WRs and great Oline in 2016. Both of those seasons resulted in 8 wins.

Kirk has been at his best in 2019 when he had a defense and run game that didn't require him to do a lot. He needs heavy PA, one read, and being told exactly where to go with the football. Giving him multiple reads and progressions is a recipe for disaster and his EPA/P drops from .26 to -.07 when he goes from his first read to his second, the biggest drop of any QB in the entire NFL last season.

We don't actually know what O'Connell's offense will be, except that it sounds super complex and that he won't run the ball as much and that makes me very nervous. Kirk does not handle carrying a full load well, he is a below average QB when not running a lot of PA and the last time the Vikings tried complexity on offense he lined up under the guard. It sounds like we will already have a built in excuse for yet another year of failure at QB.

Fine. You've given up on the season, and apparently on the coach. Enjoy.

StumpHunter wrote: ↑Thu Jun 30, 2022 7:29 am We don't actually know what O'Connell's offense will be, except that it sounds super complex and that he won't run the ball as much and that makes me very nervous. Kirk does not handle carrying a full load well, he is a below average QB when not running a lot of PA and the last time the Vikings tried complexity on offense he lined up under the guard. It sounds like we will already have a built in excuse for yet another year of failure at QB.

I think expecting a major change in Kirk's performance based on a change at coach is wishful thinking. His track record to this point doesn't suggest he's been held back by a lack of coaching or even talent around him. More than likely, Cousins will remain Cousins for yet another year, and if the Vikings improve it will largely be due to improvements in other areas of the team. To be fair, there are other areas of the team that could stand improvement, and KOC might be able to spark those improvements.

But if the Vikings end up winning more than they lose, it will likely not be because Cousins improved. Cousins is what he is at this point in his career.

My hope for the upcoming season doesn't even have to do so much with a new head coach as it does the health of key players on both sides of the ball, but especially on the defensive side of the ball. If the Vikings can catch a break healthwise and not lose key players to extended injuries this season, that would be real reason for optimism. Regardless of who ranks where on the team, there is some serious talent on the team, and I'd like to see what they can do when they get contributions from all of those players.

J. Kapp 11 wrote: ↑Thu Jun 30, 2022 2:38 pm

StumpHunter wrote: ↑Thu Jun 30, 2022 7:29 am

I would say that the best opportunity he had to prove he was capable of taking a team to the next level was when he joined a 13 win team a game away from the SB. Or when he was coached by the actual McVay and had a great group of WRs and great Oline in 2016. Both of those seasons resulted in 8 wins.

Kirk has been at his best in 2019 when he had a defense and run game that didn't require him to do a lot. He needs heavy PA, one read, and being told exactly where to go with the football. Giving him multiple reads and progressions is a recipe for disaster and his EPA/P drops from .26 to -.07 when he goes from his first read to his second, the biggest drop of any QB in the entire NFL last season.

We don't actually know what O'Connell's offense will be, except that it sounds super complex and that he won't run the ball as much and that makes me very nervous. Kirk does not handle carrying a full load well, he is a below average QB when not running a lot of PA and the last time the Vikings tried complexity on offense he lined up under the guard. It sounds like we will already have a built in excuse for yet another year of failure at QB.

Fine. You've given up on the season, and apparently on the coach. Enjoy.

Stump digging deeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeep for that one.
It's so enlightening to know who ranks where in EPA/P when going from first to second read. Isn't that the #1 most important QB stat. When the teams negotiate with the QBs for their next contracts and the team says we can't pay you more than $30 Million the QB and his agent pull out the trump card of their QB having the biggest gain in EPA/P when going from first to second read in the NFL. They can't accept a dime less than $40 million per year.

VikingLord wrote: ↑Thu Jun 30, 2022 5:40 pm

StumpHunter wrote: ↑Thu Jun 30, 2022 7:29 am We don't actually know what O'Connell's offense will be, except that it sounds super complex and that he won't run the ball as much and that makes me very nervous. Kirk does not handle carrying a full load well, he is a below average QB when not running a lot of PA and the last time the Vikings tried complexity on offense he lined up under the guard. It sounds like we will already have a built in excuse for yet another year of failure at QB.

I think expecting a major change in Kirk's performance based on a change at coach is wishful thinking. His track record to this point doesn't suggest he's been held back by a lack of coaching or even talent around him. More than likely, Cousins will remain Cousins for yet another year, and if the Vikings improve it will largely be due to improvements in other areas of the team. To be fair, there are other areas of the team that could stand improvement, and KOC might be able to spark those improvements.

But if the Vikings end up winning more than they lose, it will likely not be because Cousins improved. Cousins is what he is at this point in his career.

My hope for the upcoming season doesn't even have to do so much with a new head coach as it does the health of key players on both sides of the ball, but especially on the defensive side of the ball. If the Vikings can catch a break healthwise and not lose key players to extended injuries this season, that would be real reason for optimism. Regardless of who ranks where on the team, there is some serious talent on the team, and I'd like to see what they can do when they get contributions from all of those players.

You are very correct that Cousins will not be the reason for improvement of the Vikings this year. He will continue his usual good to very good performance. Hunter and Z playing all year I would say is a guaranteed 10 wins and probably more. If Cine and Booth contribute even better. Improvement at C and RG will be important also.

VikingsVictorious wrote: ↑Thu Jun 30, 2022 10:46 pm

VikingLord wrote: ↑Thu Jun 30, 2022 5:40 pm

I think expecting a major change in Kirk's performance based on a change at coach is wishful thinking. His track record to this point doesn't suggest he's been held back by a lack of coaching or even talent around him. More than likely, Cousins will remain Cousins for yet another year, and if the Vikings improve it will largely be due to improvements in other areas of the team. To be fair, there are other areas of the team that could stand improvement, and KOC might be able to spark those improvements.

But if the Vikings end up winning more than they lose, it will likely not be because Cousins improved. Cousins is what he is at this point in his career.

My hope for the upcoming season doesn't even have to do so much with a new head coach as it does the health of key players on both sides of the ball, but especially on the defensive side of the ball. If the Vikings can catch a break healthwise and not lose key players to extended injuries this season, that would be real reason for optimism. Regardless of who ranks where on the team, there is some serious talent on the team, and I'd like to see what they can do when they get contributions from all of those players.

You are very correct that Cousins will not be the reason for improvement of the Vikings this year. He will continue his usual good to very good performance. Hunter and Z playing all year I would say is a guaranteed 10 wins and who knows maybe more. If Cine and Booth contribute even better. Improvement at C and RG will be important also.

Can you or anyone give an example of a good to very good QB play leading to missing the playoffs 3 of 4 seasons?

VikingsVictorious wrote: ↑Thu Jun 30, 2022 10:42 pm

J. Kapp 11 wrote: ↑Thu Jun 30, 2022 2:38 pm
Fine. You've given up on the season, and apparently on the coach. Enjoy.

Stump digging deeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeep for that one.
It's so enlightening to know who ranks where in EPA/P when going from first to second read. Isn't that the #1 most important QB stat. When the teams negotiate with the QBs for their next contracts and the team says we can't pay you more than $30 Million the QB and his agent pull out the trump card of their QB having the biggest gain in EPA/P when going from first to second read in the NFL. They can't accept a dime less than $40 million per year.

This was in response to a post where he talked about O'Connell's offense giving Cousins more reads. If that is true, doesn't knowing what the QB does when forced to make multiple reads important? For instance, Stafford has always been better going to his second read versus his primary and predictably excelled in an offense where he was given lots of options. Cousins isn't that guy.

[/quote]
Can you or anyone give an example of a good to very good QB play leading to missing the playoffs 3 of 4 seasons?
[/quote]

Packers missed the playoffs 2 years in a row with Rodgers. Stafford was been pretty good on a terrible team for a while. Dak might be thrown into the conversation...as well as Kyler Murray. Justin Herbert. Carr had some good years...Matt Ryan.

Not saying these are perfect examples, but they're out there...

VikingsVictorious wrote: ↑Thu Jun 30, 2022 10:42 pm

J. Kapp 11 wrote: ↑Thu Jun 30, 2022 2:38 pm
Fine. You've given up on the season, and apparently on the coach. Enjoy.

Stump digging deeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeep for that one.
It's so enlightening to know who ranks where in EPA/P when going from first to second read. Isn't that the #1 most important QB stat. When the teams negotiate with the QBs for their next contracts and the team says we can't pay you more than $30 Million the QB and his agent pull out the trump card of their QB having the biggest gain in EPA/P when going from first to second read in the NFL. They can't accept a dime less than $40 million per year.

Man, even after supposedly ignoring Stump, hes almost all you talk about. You dig for the good stats all the time, why cant Stump?

StumpHunter wrote: ↑Fri Jul 01, 2022 6:56 am

VikingsVictorious wrote: ↑Thu Jun 30, 2022 10:42 pm
Stump digging deeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeep for that one.
It's so enlightening to know who ranks where in EPA/P when going from first to second read. Isn't that the #1 most important QB stat. When the teams negotiate with the QBs for their next contracts and the team says we can't pay you more than $30 Million the QB and his agent pull out the trump card of their QB having the biggest gain in EPA/P when going from first to second read in the NFL. They can't accept a dime less than $40 million per year.

This was in response to a post where he talked about O'Connell's offense giving Cousins more reads. If that is true, doesn't knowing what the QB does when forced to make multiple reads important? For instance, Stafford has always been better going to his second read versus his primary and predictably excelled in an offense where he was given lots of options. Cousins isn't that guy.

You don’t know that. You’re not an expert. I know that must come as a total shock to you, but you’re not.

But hey, what has Cousins done in a pass-first offense? Let’s take a look at FACTS.

In 2018, the Vikings brought in Cousins and hired John DeFilippo as OC. Flip brought a pass-first mentality.

For the first 7 games, Cousins hit 70% of his passes for 308 YPG, 14 TDS, 3 picks and a 102 passer rating. Adam Thielen had at least 100 yards in every game, compiling 67 catches for 822 yards. Stefon Diggs had 48 receptions. Yes, the stinker against Buffalo was a part of those first 7 games. But the entire team stunk it up that day following the news of Everton Griffen’s breakdown. Aside from that game, the offense averaged 28.5 points over the first 7 weeks. Those also included 400+ yard games against the Packers and Rams, two of the best teams in the league, and a 300-yard game against the Super Bowl champion Eagles.

Then the Vikings beat the Jets, but Mike Zimmer wasn’t happy. The Vikings weren’t running enough, so he called out his OC publicly and became more hands-on with the offense. DeFilippo eventually got fired, leaving Zimmer with Kevin Stefanski, whose run-as-much-as-possible philosophy was pretty much a wet dream for Zimm. Not surprisingly, Cousins struggled the rest of the way.

Again, I’m not saying Cousins is a lock to have a career year. But he’s now got a coach who values the passing game, who has a mind for the passing game, and who understudied one of the best. Cousins just finished four seasons with a coach who not only saw no value in him, but who also saw no value in the quarterback position. Cousins has never had a better situation than he has right now. If he’s ever going to break through, this represents his best chance.

Feel free to disagree. Poke holes in my argument. But don’t pretend to be a scout or an expert on quarterback play. You’re not. If you were, you wouldn’t be sharing your views on a message board.

VikingsVictorious wrote: ↑Thu Jun 30, 2022 10:46 pm You are very correct that Cousins will not be the reason for improvement of the Vikings this year. He will continue his usual good to very good performance. Hunter and Z playing all year I would say is a guaranteed 10 wins and probably more. If Cine and Booth contribute even better. Improvement at C and RG will be important also.

Yeah, the Vikings need good health, contributions from their two most recent draft classes, and better special teams play. They get that, they'll be much better even if Cousins plays at exactly the same level as he did last year.

A little good fortune isn't too much to ask as a Vikings fan... Lord knows we have earned a season where more goes right than wrong...

And besides, I want to see what a healthy Danielle Hunter can do over a full season. I'd love to see what a healthy Dalvin Cook could do too. Both guys are supreme talents and game-changing impact players on their respective sides of the ball when healthy. Just like it was fun to watch JJ get close to a record last year, it would be fun to watch some other individual Vikings chase some records, and even more so if the team overall is doing well.