The Top 20 2022 Minnesota Vikings

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vikeinmontana
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Re: The Top 20 2022 Minnesota Vikings

Post by vikeinmontana »

StanM wrote: Sun Jun 26, 2022 9:59 am
VikingsFan84 wrote: Thu Jun 16, 2022 1:56 pm Cook should not be on the list because he can not stay healthy :confused:
Question. I see comments like yours about players not being able to stay healthy and am trying to understand what that means. The way it’s put always makes the implication that the player is doing something wrong or has some kind of “can’t stay healthy” gene.

Where does bad luck and simply being in the wrong place at the wrong time come into play? The idea that an athlete who makes his living staying in condition isn’t doing something right because someone rolls up on his leg and blows his knee out doesn’t make sense. Maybe in a few cases a player might need to bulk up and add some muscle mass but there have been smaller lighter HOF receivers who have held up fine their whole careers.

Whenever people say that a player can’t stay healthy without defining what that is sounds more like a cliche than anything tangible that can be corrected.
Been banging this drum forever. The term "injury prone" and "can't stay healthy" get thrown around way too much in my opinion. But I guess that's just the life of casual fans talking about elite athletes. :confused:
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Re: The Top 20 2022 Minnesota Vikings

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VikingsVictorious wrote: Sun Jun 26, 2022 9:01 pm
fiestavike wrote: Sun Jun 26, 2022 4:57 pm Mattison is a middling player. There is no compelling take to the contrary. I had higher hopes for him, and he's fine, but that's all. He's a roughly average NFL back.
He's about average for a starting RB in the NFL and will likely sign with another team to be their starter when we decide he's too expensive. IMO he's definitely one of our top 20. It's OK if you see it differently.
A team will sign him to compete for a starting spot after next season, but he won't be making a lot of money and whatever team signs him will be hoping for a rookie to beat him out for the starting job.

Nothing special with little upside. Just a guy.
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Re: The Top 20 2022 Minnesota Vikings

Post by J. Kapp 11 »

vikeinmontana wrote: Mon Jun 27, 2022 10:21 am
StanM wrote: Sun Jun 26, 2022 9:59 am

Question. I see comments like yours about players not being able to stay healthy and am trying to understand what that means. The way it’s put always makes the implication that the player is doing something wrong or has some kind of “can’t stay healthy” gene.

Where does bad luck and simply being in the wrong place at the wrong time come into play? The idea that an athlete who makes his living staying in condition isn’t doing something right because someone rolls up on his leg and blows his knee out doesn’t make sense. Maybe in a few cases a player might need to bulk up and add some muscle mass but there have been smaller lighter HOF receivers who have held up fine their whole careers.

Whenever people say that a player can’t stay healthy without defining what that is sounds more like a cliche than anything tangible that can be corrected.
Been banging this drum forever. The term "injury prone" and "can't stay healthy" get thrown around way too much in my opinion. But I guess that's just the life of casual fans talking about elite athletes. :confused:
I agree we fans probably are too quick to label a guy. But there IS such a thing as being injury prone. In fact, it’s been studied quite a bit.

For example, research has shown that athletes, even professionals, often work so hard on their technique in order to improve the efficiency of their play that they place little or no focus on reducing injury risk. As a result, some injuries begin as micro-tears or fractures during training. The athlete often isn’t even aware of these injuries. They see themselves as “just sore.” If the athlete doesn’t correct this movement, the micro problem can quickly turn into a major injury.

Of course, many injuries in pro athletes come as the result of contact, falling awkwardly during play, etc. — bad-luck things. But beyond that, the most common causes of injury are overtraining and incorrect technique, and it happens more than we realize.

And of course, there are malingerers — guys who have figured out they get paid even if they’re in street clothes. Not saying it’s the norm, but we all know it happens.

Finally, there are guys who have been hurt so often or so severely that it’s unlikely they’ll ever be as good as they once were.

At some point, if you’re on the shelf more than you’re available, then the label doesn’t matter. The fact is that you bring less value to the team. Anthony Davis of the Lakers comes to mind. Label him or don’t label him … he’s played less than half his team’s games over the past two seasons. There comes a point you have to ask, can we count on this guy to play?

I get the frustration with labeling guys. But we rarely know the whole story, so all we can do is ask ourselves whether a guy is available, and if not, is he worth having for the money he’s being paid? That answer, of course, will vary from person to person.
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Re: The Top 20 2022 Minnesota Vikings

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J. Kapp 11 wrote: Mon Jun 27, 2022 12:30 pm
vikeinmontana wrote: Mon Jun 27, 2022 10:21 am
Been banging this drum forever. The term "injury prone" and "can't stay healthy" get thrown around way too much in my opinion. But I guess that's just the life of casual fans talking about elite athletes. :confused:
I agree we fans probably are too quick to label a guy. But there IS such a thing as being injury prone. In fact, it’s been studied quite a bit.

For example, research has shown that athletes, even professionals, often work so hard on their technique in order to improve the efficiency of their play that they place little or no focus on reducing injury risk. As a result, some injuries begin as micro-tears or fractures during training. The athlete often isn’t even aware of these injuries. They see themselves as “just sore.” If the athlete doesn’t correct this movement, the micro problem can quickly turn into a major injury.

Of course, many injuries in pro athletes come as the result of contact, falling awkwardly during play, etc. — bad-luck things. But beyond that, the most common causes of injury are overtraining and incorrect technique, and it happens more than we realize.

And of course, there are malingerers — guys who have figured out they get paid even if they’re in street clothes. Not saying it’s the norm, but we all know it happens.

Finally, there are guys who have been hurt so often or so severely that it’s unlikely they’ll ever be as good as they once were.

At some point, if you’re on the shelf more than you’re available, then the label doesn’t matter. The fact is that you bring less value to the team. Anthony Davis of the Lakers comes to mind. Label him or don’t label him … he’s played less than half his team’s games over the past two seasons. There comes a point you have to ask, can we count on this guy to play?

I get the frustration with labeling guys. But we rarely know the whole story, so all we can do is ask ourselves whether a guy is available, and if not, is he worth having for the money he’s being paid? That answer, of course, will vary from person to person.
Very well stated.
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Re: The Top 20 2022 Minnesota Vikings

Post by VikingLord »

StumpHunter wrote: Tue Jun 21, 2022 7:21 am You can win with your QB not being the best player on the team, it just rarely happens and when it does, that team around them is elite.
I wonder how fans of other teams would rank the Vikings players relative to each other? Would the majority of non-Vikings fans put Cousins as high as #6 on this list?

I'd guess more objective observers would put him lower than that, most likely at or around #10.
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Re: The Top 20 2022 Minnesota Vikings

Post by vikeinmontana »

J. Kapp 11 wrote: Mon Jun 27, 2022 12:30 pm
vikeinmontana wrote: Mon Jun 27, 2022 10:21 am
Been banging this drum forever. The term "injury prone" and "can't stay healthy" get thrown around way too much in my opinion. But I guess that's just the life of casual fans talking about elite athletes. :confused:
I agree we fans probably are too quick to label a guy. But there IS such a thing as being injury prone. In fact, it’s been studied quite a bit.

For example, research has shown that athletes, even professionals, often work so hard on their technique in order to improve the efficiency of their play that they place little or no focus on reducing injury risk. As a result, some injuries begin as micro-tears or fractures during training. The athlete often isn’t even aware of these injuries. They see themselves as “just sore.” If the athlete doesn’t correct this movement, the micro problem can quickly turn into a major injury.

Of course, many injuries in pro athletes come as the result of contact, falling awkwardly during play, etc. — bad-luck things. But beyond that, the most common causes of injury are overtraining and incorrect technique, and it happens more than we realize.

And of course, there are malingerers — guys who have figured out they get paid even if they’re in street clothes. Not saying it’s the norm, but we all know it happens.

Finally, there are guys who have been hurt so often or so severely that it’s unlikely they’ll ever be as good as they once were.

At some point, if you’re on the shelf more than you’re available, then the label doesn’t matter. The fact is that you bring less value to the team. Anthony Davis of the Lakers comes to mind. Label him or don’t label him … he’s played less than half his team’s games over the past two seasons. There comes a point you have to ask, can we count on this guy to play?

I get the frustration with labeling guys. But we rarely know the whole story, so all we can do is ask ourselves whether a guy is available, and if not, is he worth having for the money he’s being paid? That answer, of course, will vary from person to person.
Can't argue any of that Kapp. I just think speaking in generalities, "injury prone" is a phrase thrown around too often in my opinion. Especially in a brutal sport like football. No doubt there is some truth to it in certain athletes but overall I'm of the belief that injuries will just happen.

I get your point though for sure.
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Re: The Top 20 2022 Minnesota Vikings

Post by VikingsVictorious »

VikingLord wrote: Mon Jun 27, 2022 3:58 pm
StumpHunter wrote: Tue Jun 21, 2022 7:21 am You can win with your QB not being the best player on the team, it just rarely happens and when it does, that team around them is elite.
I wonder how fans of other teams would rank the Vikings players relative to each other? Would the majority of non-Vikings fans put Cousins as high as #6 on this list?

I'd guess more objective observers would put him lower than that, most likely at or around #10.
Relative to position odds are that only one or two QBs are going to be the best player on the team. 22 starters per team and 32 teams in the league. Just about 1.33 QBs will be the best player on their team. The QB will be more important, but best player relative to position only 1 or 2 is likely to be best on the team.
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Re: The Top 20 2022 Minnesota Vikings

Post by StumpHunter »

VikingsVictorious wrote: Mon Jun 27, 2022 8:12 pm
VikingLord wrote: Mon Jun 27, 2022 3:58 pm

I wonder how fans of other teams would rank the Vikings players relative to each other? Would the majority of non-Vikings fans put Cousins as high as #6 on this list?

I'd guess more objective observers would put him lower than that, most likely at or around #10.
Relative to position odds are that only one or two QBs are going to be the best player on the team. 22 starters per team and 32 teams in the league. Just about 1.33 QBs will be the best player on their team. The QB will be more important, but best player relative to position only 1 or 2 is likely to be best on the team.
Ravens
Bucs
Packers
KC
LAC
AZ
GB
Cincy
Dallas
Denver

Oakland might be Carr although you could make the argument Crosby and Adams are better and then there are teams that don't really have anyone really good on them like Detroit, NYJ and Jacksonville where the QB has a chance to be the best player on the team.

Teams where the QB would be out of the top 5:
Carolina
MN
Cleveland (with Brisset)
Seattle
SF
Washington
NYG
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Re: The Top 20 2022 Minnesota Vikings

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VikingLord wrote: Mon Jun 27, 2022 3:58 pm
StumpHunter wrote: Tue Jun 21, 2022 7:21 am You can win with your QB not being the best player on the team, it just rarely happens and when it does, that team around them is elite.
I wonder how fans of other teams would rank the Vikings players relative to each other? Would the majority of non-Vikings fans put Cousins as high as #6 on this list?

I'd guess more objective observers would put him lower than that, most likely at or around #10.
OK this is probably going to come off as overly sensitive, but I have to ask …

Are you saying that if someone rates Kirk Cousins higher than the 10th-best player on his own team, then that person isn’t an objective observer?

I think it’s entirely reasonable for an objective observer to rate Kirk Cousins higher than 10th best on the Vikings. I certainly rank him higher than that, and I’m far from a Cousins apologist.

In addition, I believe that with an offense where the forward pass isn’t a last resort and is actually built to take advantage of Cousins’ strengths, we could see him take a pretty big step forward in 2022.
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Re: The Top 20 2022 Minnesota Vikings

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J. Kapp 11 wrote: Tue Jun 28, 2022 6:03 pm
VikingLord wrote: Mon Jun 27, 2022 3:58 pm

I wonder how fans of other teams would rank the Vikings players relative to each other? Would the majority of non-Vikings fans put Cousins as high as #6 on this list?

I'd guess more objective observers would put him lower than that, most likely at or around #10.
OK this is probably going to come off as overly sensitive, but I have to ask …

Are you saying that if someone rates Kirk Cousins higher than the 10th-best player on his own team, then that person isn’t an objective observer?

I think it’s entirely reasonable for an objective observer to rate Kirk Cousins higher than 10th best on the Vikings. I certainly rank him higher than that, and I’m far from a Cousins apologist.

In addition, I believe that with an offense where the forward pass isn’t a last resort and is actually built to take advantage of Cousins’ strengths, we could see him take a pretty big step forward in 2022.
Whats Cousins done here or in WAS to make you feel that. High stats which are basically meaningless unless we win the big game? A lot of playoffs wins? Or do you think the rest of the team is that bad?
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Re: The Top 20 2022 Minnesota Vikings

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J. Kapp 11 wrote: Tue Jun 28, 2022 6:03 pm Are you saying that if someone rates Kirk Cousins higher than the 10th-best player on his own team, then that person isn’t an objective observer?
No, but just like everyone thinks their own baby is cute, fans of a given team might tend to see fewer warts on certain players on their own teams, especially when those players are high-priced free agents who keep getting extended like a bad case of the movie "Groundhog Day".
J. Kapp 11 wrote: Tue Jun 28, 2022 6:03 pm I think it’s entirely reasonable for an objective observer to rate Kirk Cousins higher than 10th best on the Vikings. I certainly rank him higher than that, and I’m far from a Cousins apologist.
On this iteration of the Vikings, I think it is reasonable for an objective observer, Vikings fan or otherwise, to rank Cousins higher than 10th best on the team. I wouldn't treat a ranking of 5th or better seriously regardless of who did the ranking, however.
J. Kapp 11 wrote: Tue Jun 28, 2022 6:03 pm In addition, I believe that with an offense where the forward pass isn’t a last resort and is actually built to take advantage of Cousins’ strengths, we could see him take a pretty big step forward in 2022.
His performances both with the Redskins and Vikings over his pro career suggest otherwise (wasn't KOC his QB coach in Washington for at least some of his time there?), but he always might take a leap forward. I hope he does, but I wouldn't bet money on him doing it at this point and I really don't think a coaching change will fix what ails him. That isn't a knock on KOC. It's an observation of Cousins himself and the type of player and teammate he has been and is. I don't see him as a guy who can inspire or motivate his teammates. He's not toxic like a Geoff George or Cutler, but he's not inspiring like a Mahomes or Brady. He's a middle-of-the-road QB being paid like a top-flight QB.

My opinion, of course.
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Re: The Top 20 2022 Minnesota Vikings

Post by VikingLord »

VikingsVictorious wrote: Mon Jun 27, 2022 8:12 pm
VikingLord wrote: Mon Jun 27, 2022 3:58 pm

I wonder how fans of other teams would rank the Vikings players relative to each other? Would the majority of non-Vikings fans put Cousins as high as #6 on this list?

I'd guess more objective observers would put him lower than that, most likely at or around #10.
Relative to position odds are that only one or two QBs are going to be the best player on the team. 22 starters per team and 32 teams in the league. Just about 1.33 QBs will be the best player on their team. The QB will be more important, but best player relative to position only 1 or 2 is likely to be best on the team.
My point is that teams that compete for Superbowls will most likely have a starting QB that is at least top 5 on the team. Not all, but the majority.

It's kind of a like a band. A great band needs a great lead singer. Put a bad lead singer with a great band, that band isn't so great anymore. Conversely, while a great lead singer can't mask all faults of a so-so band, they'll make it much better than it otherwise might be.

Maybe that isn't a great analogy, but as Stump pointed out, if you look at the list of teams that are expected to compete for their division titles this year, most of them have starting QBs who are clear top 5 talents on their respective teams.
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Re: The Top 20 2022 Minnesota Vikings

Post by VikingsVictorious »

J. Kapp 11 wrote: Tue Jun 28, 2022 6:03 pm
VikingLord wrote: Mon Jun 27, 2022 3:58 pm

I wonder how fans of other teams would rank the Vikings players relative to each other? Would the majority of non-Vikings fans put Cousins as high as #6 on this list?

I'd guess more objective observers would put him lower than that, most likely at or around #10.
OK this is probably going to come off as overly sensitive, but I have to ask …

Are you saying that if someone rates Kirk Cousins higher than the 10th-best player on his own team, then that person isn’t an objective observer?

I think it’s entirely reasonable for an objective observer to rate Kirk Cousins higher than 10th best on the Vikings. I certainly rank him higher than that, and I’m far from a Cousins apologist.

In addition, I believe that with an offense where the forward pass isn’t a last resort and is actually built to take advantage of Cousins’ strengths, we could see him take a pretty big step forward in 2022.
Cousins is a top 10 QB in the league and a top 5 player relative to position on the Vikings. If Matt Stafford can win a Super Bowl the slightly better Cousins certainly can. Now we need the rest of the team to play at a level that can get us there. The consistently good Cousins is the least of our concerns. Hunter and Z staying healthy are probably the most of our concerns.
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Re: The Top 20 2022 Minnesota Vikings

Post by VikingsVictorious »

VikingLord wrote: Wed Jun 29, 2022 1:32 am
VikingsVictorious wrote: Mon Jun 27, 2022 8:12 pm
Relative to position odds are that only one or two QBs are going to be the best player on the team. 22 starters per team and 32 teams in the league. Just about 1.33 QBs will be the best player on their team. The QB will be more important, but best player relative to position only 1 or 2 is likely to be best on the team.
My point is that teams that compete for Superbowls will most likely have a starting QB that is at least top 5 on the team. Not all, but the majority.

It's kind of a like a band. A great band needs a great lead singer. Put a bad lead singer with a great band, that band isn't so great anymore. Conversely, while a great lead singer can't mask all faults of a so-so band, they'll make it much better than it otherwise might be.

Maybe that isn't a great analogy, but as Stump pointed out, if you look at the list of teams that are expected to compete for their division titles this year, most of them have starting QBs who are clear top 5 talents on their respective teams.
Your analogy is just fine. The Vikings have a very good lead singer. Lead guitar not so much.
Cousins is consistently good to very good. No doubt he's good enough that we can win it all. For that to happen the TEAM needs to step it up. No QB in NFL history could have won it all with the Defense of the last two years.
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Re: The Top 20 2022 Minnesota Vikings

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VikingsVictorious wrote: Wed Jun 29, 2022 10:12 am
VikingLord wrote: Wed Jun 29, 2022 1:32 am

My point is that teams that compete for Superbowls will most likely have a starting QB that is at least top 5 on the team. Not all, but the majority.

It's kind of a like a band. A great band needs a great lead singer. Put a bad lead singer with a great band, that band isn't so great anymore. Conversely, while a great lead singer can't mask all faults of a so-so band, they'll make it much better than it otherwise might be.

Maybe that isn't a great analogy, but as Stump pointed out, if you look at the list of teams that are expected to compete for their division titles this year, most of them have starting QBs who are clear top 5 talents on their respective teams.
Your analogy is just fine. The Vikings have a very good lead singer. Lead guitar not so much.
Cousins is consistently good to very good. No doubt he's good enough that we can win it all. For that to happen the TEAM needs to step it up. No QB in NFL history could have won it all with the Defense of the last two years.
Except there have been SB winners with lesser defenses and a lot more teams that have made deep playoff runs.